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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:00 am
Since these DBZ vs JLU threads of mine seem to last a long time I figured I'd post a new match that just came to mind, due to the similarities of the characters. Now I'm sure everyone knows who Cell is so I'm just gonna post Amazo's episode. http://www.veoh.com/videos/v925518KXE53j5C?searchId=4071463624531637457&rank=3To prevent this fight from being terribly one sided Amazo can't scan Cell and absorb his powers. Amazo (almost always called simply "the android" or "Ivo's android") possesses a nanotechnological construction, and can mimic the superpowers of any superhuman it can see. It can also evolve without copying superpowers, at one point copying Superman's vulnerability to kryptonite but evolving beyond the weakness after repeated exposure. It quickly mimics the abilities of Hawkgirl (including a replica of her Nth metal mace), Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern, and Superman. Amazo's absorbed powers seem to grow stronger as the android uses them, and it eventually defeats most of the League members with their own powers simply by overpowering them. It also seems to become progressively more intelligent, perhaps reaching Luthor's level of genius. Amazo has also shown to adapt minor personality traits of those who's power he copied. Shown by his fliritng with Mercy a trait attained by Flash. Now for Amazo's stats. By the end of Tabula Rasa Amazo has amassed the strength and skill of all the original 7 of the Justice League. I'm using him before he returns to Earth because that would be highly unfair seeing as he became a perpetual God who curb stomped the League and almost destroyed the Universe. Amazo has... Superman's strength, Invulnerability, Heat vision and other optic powers. The Flash's speed (Wally West). Wonderwoman's Indestructible powerbands along with Wonderwoma's combat skills. Wonderwoman grew up on an island of warrior women who lived to fight, trained in Greek combat methods. Hawkgirl's nth metal Mace and combat abilities. Let me point something out before you take that too lightly. Lieutenant Shayera Hol of Thanagar was a highly trained espionage agent. Several ranking officers in the Thanagarion military force attempted to capture her but in caution stating." She has more training than the 5 of us put together." Shayera is also a skilled strategist as Aquaman said " She used to regularly defeat Batman" (In chess) Green Lantern's power ring. ( I don't think I need to explain this one) While he scanned Batman it's assumed he didn't gain anything from him. " You are merely a human, you have nothing to offer me...) Martian Manhunter's psionic abilities, shape shifting and intangibility.
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:03 pm
This is indeed going to be a tough one. Great thread, by the way.
If I recall back to the Goku vs TAS Superman thread, I believe it was established that Goku had superior speed, only by a little. Unless the Flash is faster than Superman, I believe Cell would have the speed advantage. Instant Transmission helps greatly as well.
Amazo most likely has the strength advantage.
I'm unsure of who would have greater durability. Cell's durability is similar to Goku's, and Goku has taken massive beatings over the series (I'll re-post the manga scans if you'd like). Also, he'll regenerate from almost nothing (as long as his central cell is not destroyed -- keep in mind, the central cell survived a planet-busting attack).
Cell also won't hesitate to inflict massive destruction, disregarding his own safety due to regeneration. Like he attempted with Gohan, I would not be surprised if he eventually saw the need to try and nuke the solar system.
Intelligence is also tricky here. Vegeta was labeled as a "battle genius" by Piccolo. Piccolo himself is a massive strategist. Goku has a great deal of experience, and knows the most fighting styles out of any Z Fighter . . . and everyone else contributed to Cell in one way or another. Does Amazo necessarily have the intelligence of the listed fighters?
Two notes on Cell's regeneration:
1 - If Cell regenerates from a massive attack (near death), he will learn the ability that he was last in contact with, as seen by learning Instant Transmission.
2 - Cell becomes stronger each time he regenerates due to Saiyan genes. If the fight dragged on for an extensive time, this trait would constantly increase in efficiency.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:07 pm
Flash has shown to be faster than Superman... Or at least an A/U Superman. And Amazo clearly showed that he dominated Flash in the speed department." You're just too fast for me bro..."
( No that's fine I remember the scans.) As for regen cell survived getting his head blown off by a detonator planted inside of him by professor Ivo. Not only that if he where met with force powerful enough to do him great damage he'd be able to get right back up. J'onn was torn in half in one episode and it didn't seem to bother him.
I'd say yes, during his short travel across the Universe he attained God like intelligence. In fact he gained so much knowledge that he wasn't even sure what to do with it. So for intellect he scanned several genius's or people capable of handling genius level intellect. (Ie, Batman, Superman and Luthor) Especially Luthor. And Amazo has few combat skills under his belt as well.
( I'll assume Batman's despite his comment, it's likely he got something from him. If you don't think so I'll disregard my comment on that.)
Wonderwoman's amazonian skills gave both Black Canary and Huntress a run for their money. And Hawkgirl was able to hold her own against Wonderwoman as well.
How would Cell hold up against a mental attack?
I remember some of Cell's regeneration. He was reduced to nothing but his legs by Goku and he had his whole side blown off by Vegeta.
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:18 pm
In that case, Amazo probably has the speed advantage. However, would he fare well against Instant Transmission?
It seems as if Amazo will keep fighting even after taking massive damage, but can he regenerate at all? Won't his performance decrease with such damage as well?
Amazo probably has the intelligence factor as well, by a little, seeing as Cell is arguably the smartest person in the DBU.
From your quote, I'd believe that Amazo didn't gain anything from Batman. Even if he did, I don't think it would tip the scale much anyway.
It's rather unknown how Cell would deal with a mental attack. Going by what he's made of, he mainly consists of himself, and two androids. Technically, that should make him approximately 1/3 organic and 2/3 robotic. Seeing as robotic dominates, I believe he could fend off a mental attack.
Can Amazo create an attack that well exceeds planet-busting potential?
On the other hand, would Amazo be able to survive a solar system-busting attack?
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:27 am
Amazo got his head blown off by a detonater and grew it back. Sorry about that I checked my last post and I put Cell where Amazo should be. And with J'onn's powers he would have a rather quick regen factor. I doubt he'd slow down for long after taking damage, he'd only reconstruct the damaged section of his body and continue on. As for a planet busting attack that's arguable. In the episode " In Blackest Night" John Stewart was framed for blowing up a planet with his power ring. While this was an illusion the GuaIt seemed believable enough that the ring possesed enough power, since the Gurdians and several Green Lanterns even believed it. If met with a planest busting attack I think Amazo could hold up pretty good by avoiding it alltogether. Amazo's censors show him when he's in danger, like it did with that piece of Kryptonite. While Cell was preparing an attack Amazo could go intangible to avoid it hitting him. If Cell's brain functions anything like that of a humanoid beings he'd most likely be vunerable to a mental attack. But I will admit that if Cell used instant transmission he could catch Amazo off guard. With a high powered chi blast combo-ed with that he could most likely take him out. Maybe I should take that power copy restriction off for tis fight. Then again he might be able to hold off a planet busting attack with the powerbands, if all the energy was contained in one area.
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Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:13 am
No worries, I knew what you meant.
From what I see, Amazo is going to pose a real problem for Cell. However, unless Amazo can't realistically summon power that exceeds planet-busting potential, I believe Cell will come back each time, stronger.
While Cell's brain does partially function like that of a human, won't his dominating android side help him fend off the attack?
Keep in mind that Cell's final Kamehameha had solar system-busting potential. If Amazo gave him enough of problem like Gohan did, he wouldn't hesitate to use it. Also note that against Gohan, Cell went for a direct, open attack with his Kamehameha, most likely because Gohan was at the brink of defeat, and couldn't dodge it if he tried. If Amazo could still fight with decent ability by the time he had to resort to a Kamehameha of that caliber, I believe Cell would try combining it with Instant Transmission. With Amazo having the speed advantage, using Instant Transmission would come off as the most logical move for Cell.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:23 am
Wait, can Cell survive in space? Last I checked, none of the Dragonball Characters could survive in space. So if Cell really did attempt a solar-destroying attack, he'd be left in space and would eventually die anyway. Whilst Amazo is obviously capable of surviing in space.
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:42 pm
Baulder Wait, can Cell survive in space? Last I checked, none of the Dragonball Characters could survive in space. So if Cell really did attempt a solar-destroying attack, he'd be left in space and would eventually die anyway. Whilst Amazo is obviously capable of surviing in space. Contrary to popular belief, Saiyans can survive in space. This is demonstrated in Dragonball, when Goku drops off Murasaki on the moon via his Nyoibo staff. Other than that, Frieza, Cell, and Buu have the ability to survive in space. Frieza survived in space after Namek blew up. Cell can survive in space due to the fact that he has the genes of Frieza and the Saiyans. Kid Buu was shown to survive in space after he blew up Earth, regenerated in space, and then teleported to the Planet of the Kais.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:52 am
Wow, I thought that this would be a walk in the park for AMAZO, but it's actualy a pretty close fight...
Just a few things I'd like to throw in-
Canonicly, Sajins cannot survive in space, though Goku can apparently hold his breath for a rediculously long time, as he took boss rabbit to the moon on his power poll(which I have a lot of problems with, but I digress). In the anime they apparently can, despite the fact that they specificly say that the can't several times, as the fact that Sajins can't survive in space was stated in the manga several times and is key to the plot in certan spots(Goku wouldn't have had to worry at all about Namek exploding, as he could have excaped the radius of the explosion, ect.). There was a long, long, argument about this in the Goku cannot beat Superman thread, mostly between me and Blaze, but I'm to lazy to look it up.
Fezza and family, on the other hand, can definitly survive in space, as is specificly stated multipul times, and was the reason why Frezza tryed to destroy Namek, as he could survive if the planet was destroyed even if Goku couldn't. And after his battle with Goku Frezza was left floating in space, sans a lower torso and severly dammaged from fighting Goku and taking the explosion of a planet going nova(I know that's not the scientificly correct term but meh)for quite some time without dieing. Cell inheriited that power from Frezza, and in fact when he even says specificly that it's O.K. for him to destroy the planet because he can survive in space due to Frezza's cells.
Even if Amazo did dodge or possibly even if he deflected Cell's blast, it would still destroy the planet and quite possibly the Sun. And while bolth fighters are fine in space and probably without heat or light from the sun, the resulting explosion would be huge and would either heavily dammage or kill AMAZO and would most likely reduce Cell to his core cell(That's a good thing for Cell, as he could then rgenerate and become stronger).
How would AMAZO react to a solar flare? I'm sure he can fight blind(Superman can) but the initial shock of a solar flare could give Cell time to implement a strategey.
The Flash is only very very barely faster than Superman, arguably of equil speed(in the cartoons at least, commics wise he's well out of Supe's lead). AMAZO is still likely quite a bit faster than Cell, though.
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:06 am
Amazo has his own power source, at the end of Tabula Rasa part 2 he apparently absorbed the power of a Star. Amazo is able to reconstruct his body from heavy damage, he's not one singular robot that can be destroyed with pure blunt force. But he's millions of smaller robots compacted into one form. Something like Solar flare would merit that Amazo have organic pupils which he doesn't. When someone's pupils are suddenly dialated it blinds them and causes pain. But Amazo doesn't have pupils at best it'd only be a minor annoyance that would probably buy little time if that. Flash has shown greater speed than Superman... Atleast the Supes from an alternate dimension. http://youtube.com/watch?v=yItpl_Bpe2kFor mesing with Cell's mind the android side monst likely wouldn't be affected at all. But the biological section would be. Also Veggie here's what I was refering to in the Goku vs Superman fight about the time inbetween the instant Transmission and the Kamehameha. Also from looking back on a few things I get what you all said about planet destroying power compacted into a small area. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNgkPhy00jwTruthfully I'm not sure if either of them wouldn't be completely vaporized from a Supernova. It seems highly unlikely on both accounts.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:15 am
@ Kami: By saying 'survive', I mean that one won't perish within a matter of minutes. Frieza, Cell and Buu could technically 'live' in space for extended periods of time if necessary.
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:50 am
@ Andrew: I'll agree that the organic portion of Cell's brain may be affected, but the fact that in total it's less organic than mechanical leads me to believe that he could still function with a decent performance if mentally attacked.
One thing I noticed about Goku's IT Kamehameha: The entire sequence after he teleported appeared to be in slow motion. This could be misleading as to it's actual speed. Also keep in mind that Goku gave no warning signs of an upcoming technique while charging the Kamehameha; it's a complete surprise attack, which is why Cell was caught off guard and couldn't react any faster. Even for a slow motion sequence, Cell did react unusually slow when compared to how he handles other attacks. This could also contribute to the fact that Goku seemingly had a long time to attack after appearing in front of Cell.
If Cell were to successfully use a Kamehameha in the fashion he did against Gohan (parallel to the ground, able to leave the planet afterwards), the sun nor planets would end up being destroyed. This way, the only thing taking the full brunt of the solar system-buster would Amazo. Also note that if the attack hit, the beam would not necessarily travel into outer space until it hit something else. This is seen when Gohan's Kamehameha fades into nothing after he finishes the attack.
What's the best example of Amazo's durability that you know of?
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:01 am
The best example I can't use in this fight. But he took hits from Hawkgirl's mace which hurt Darkseid, without showing to be damaged, punches from Superman, Wonderwoman and blasts from Green lantern. And Superman's heat vison.
I could argue that everyone destroyed by a planet busting attack didn't have the strength to prevent from being overwhelmed. They can apparently be touched. I'm not sure if this was a planet busting attack, but Freize after putting forth effort, deflected Gohan's blast. And Vegeta in another instance as you've shown in your scans was able to survive being hit with one, and he also had the strength to get out of it's way before it overtook him. Add that knowledge with Amazo's powerbands and Wonderwoman's skills and Flash's reflexes he could likely be able to react with just enough time to block it.
I thought that force of the attack was only Solar System busting because he could use it to destroy the sun.
Thinking back I'm kinda debating on something. I meen Android 18 was apparently organic enough to not only have intercourse, but become pregnant and bare a human child. It makes me think that they are probably organic enough to produce brain waves.
If not then Amazo could cause the organic section of Cell's mind enough discomfort to slow down his movements and or distract him.
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:55 am
The reason I asked for Amazo's durability is that I'm highly skeptical of him being able to take a solar system-buster and survive. In all honesty, I also doubt Cell would survive an attack of that caliber, which is why I believe he would not want to destroy planets in the process.
Keep in mind, Gohan's blast on Namek pales in comparison to Cell's final Kamehameha. This also applies to the Kamehameha than nearly killed Vegeta. It's even arguable to determine if Gohan's attack was a planet buster at all. Goku's Kamehameha was indeed a planet buster. Compare those planet busters to Cell's solar system buster, and the gap in power is enormous. If Amazo can survive/block a planet-buster, it doesn't necessarily mean he could do the same with a final attack of Cell's caliber.
The sun was never mentioned when Cell talked about destroying the solar system. Due to that, one can only assume that the brute force of the explosion would be enough to wipe out all planets within a solar system.
I see your point with Android 18, however, if you refer back to when Vegeta kicked off the head of Android 19, sparks continuously jolted out of it's neck, and the inside looked purely mechanical. The same can be said for Android 16 after Cell kicked off his head. While the body areas of the androids may be partially organic, the only examples we see of the structure of the head looks purely mechanical, leading me to believe that the brains of androids aren't made of organic components.
Another question: If Amazo really can disrupt someone with mental attacks to such an extent, how did the Justice League possibly defeat him?
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:39 am
I agree with most of the above. He's never actually done it, but he should be able to since he has J'onn's powers. And Amazo only lost twice in the series the first time Batman used Kryptonite on him. And the second time he didn't actually lose but more didn't want to endager everyone frrom Chaos Grundy absorbing his power. The only things that ever stopped him besides those times where him seeing everyone on Earth as beneath him and the second time Luthor convinced him not to destroy the Universe. Although the Grundy case and with Luthor are when he became a a practical God so I'm not using that version.
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