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Hawk_McKrakken

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:04 pm


Lingua del mese: Italiano

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I won't be doing much in here, I'm just starting the thread and putting in the pronunciation. When Firewolfblue has more time is when you'll get some real lessons, so... enjoy the pronunciation. sweatdrop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:27 pm


Section 1 - Alphabet and Pronunciation


Not making this all fancy like I did in the Spanish one. A lot of the pronunciation is the same (or at least very similar), though, so go there if you have no friggin' clue what the hell I'm yammering on about.

A - Like in father

B - Like English

C - Like in cat before A, O or U, like in chair before E or I

D - Like English

E - Like in fresh

F - Like in English

G - Like in go before A, O or U, like in treasure (some pronounce it like the English J) before E or I

H - Always silent

I - Like in machine

L - Mostly like English, tongue touches the roof of mouth - see Spanish thread's L if confused

M - Like in English

N - Like in English

O - Mostly like English hope, but shorter, not as prolonged - see Spanish thread's O if confused

P - Like in English

Q(u) - Like in English

R - Rolled like in Spanish

S - Normally like sharp English S, but like English Z between vowels

T - Like in English

U - Like in fluke - tends to act like English W before other vowels

V - Like in English

Z - Like in muds when single, like in cats when doubled


Foreign letters

J - I'm not sure how this should be pronounced. Probably like the English J, I'd assume - possibly like the English Y in some cases

K - Probably like English

W - Tends to be pronounced like V

X - Probably like English

Y - Probably like English

Sorry about those half-assed examples of the foreign letters, but you don't usually see them anyway... plus my only reliable source of information doesn't list their pronunciations.


Diphthongs

Refer to Spanish thread, they're all exactly the same anyway.


Consonant clusters

SC - Like in scar before A, O or U, like in ship before E or I

CH - Like in cat before E or I (used so that C sound will not change as in chair, as C does before E or I)

SCH - Like in scar before E or I (used so that SC sound will not change as in ship, as SC does before E or I)

GH - Like in go before E or I (used so that G sound will not change as in treasure, as G does before E or I)

GN - Like in canyon; equivalent to Spanish Ñ

Hawk_McKrakken


Vajra B. Hairava

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:07 pm


Thanks for posting something.
Questions, I remember reading about there being "open and closed" versions of e and o, where e can become the dipthong ei, and o sometimes becomes the "ɔ" sound. I noticed you didn't mention that at all. Is it anything to worry about?

And I assume t's and d's and whatnot are dental as in Spanish?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:43 am


I'll post something now, but I can't promise it's all right, because I learnt Italian by living in Italy and speaking with my Italian friends. No education in school, no.

The E and O can be pronounced in two ways:

E - bed or say (without the diphtong at the end).
O - pot or no (without the diphtong at the end). The latter almost sounds like the 'oo' in zoo.

I don't think there's a way to tell when to use the first or the second pronunciation, I guess you'll just have to learn it. But it tends to be the first pronunciation. smile

The consonant cluster "gl" is pronounced as the Spanish "ll", btw. As in "million".

Nanoq
Crew


Vajra B. Hairava

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:11 pm


Siocled


I don't think there's a way to tell when to use the first or the second pronunciation, I guess you'll just have to learn it. But it tends to be the first pronunciation. smile



Not what I wanted to hear. ;_;
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:12 pm


Italian is such a sexy language biggrin

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419scambaiterKoko

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:15 pm


Posso avere un soda!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:03 am


One thing I've noticed about the 'open' and 'closed' E and O is that they tend to be 'closed' (short?) when separated from another vowel by a double consonant. Like the word donna (woman) I'm pretty sure is a 'closed' O, etc. So maybe it's just double consonants that do that - I've seen even a double V in Italian, which you don't usually see in other languages 'cause it looks weird.

Then again, I don't know any of this for sure. All's I know is, you should be just fine using the 'open' or long sound for O and, personally I'd think, the 'closed' or short sound for E, unless it's at the end of a sentence. It kinda follows Spanish in that aspect, I think.

Maybe. I'm just kinda babbling.

Hawk_McKrakken


Nanoq
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:54 am


Hawk_McKrakken
One thing I've noticed about the 'open' and 'closed' E and O is that they tend to be 'closed' (short?) when separated from another vowel by a double consonant. Like the word donna (woman) I'm pretty sure is a 'closed' O, etc. So maybe it's just double consonants that do that - I've seen even a double V in Italian, which you don't usually see in other languages 'cause it looks weird.

Then again, I don't know any of this for sure. All's I know is, you should be just fine using the 'open' or long sound for O and, personally I'd think, the 'closed' or short sound for E, unless it's at the end of a sentence. It kinda follows Spanish in that aspect, I think.

Maybe. I'm just kinda babbling.
Everything you say seems right to me, except that, for example, the word troppo is pronounced with open o, so there are exceptions, I guess. But yes, I used Spanish pronounciation when I first started learning Italian and my friends, who live in Rome (dunno whether that changes anything), understood perfectly.

In Northern Italy, a difference is made between open and closed o and e, but around Rome there's no such difference. At least that's what my sister says, who lives outside Rome herself. So the words "perchè" and "perché" are pronounced the same in Romano dialect, but differently in Standard Italian.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:06 pm


doesnt look too hard to learn

Israeli Relish


Hawk_McKrakken

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:25 pm


This is one thing I do know about - nouns, gender and pluralization and all that junk. I guess I'll just put this here because... people are getting restless and starting to lose faith in the whole language of the month thing because of this kinda thing.

Section 2 - Nouns, gender, pluralization and articles


Two genders in Italian - masculine and feminine:

- Nouns ending in O are usually masculine
- Nouns ending in A are usually feminine
- Nouns ending in TÀ and ZIONE and are feminine
(there might be more, but I haven't studied that far into it)

And of course, there are always exceptions, like la mano ("hand," feminine), il programma ("program," masculine), etc.

Articles

There are actually quite a few different articles, so here they are, and I'll also explain when to use each:

Definite articles (the)

Masculine articles

il {singular} - used before cosonants (ex: il ragazzo - "the boy")
l' {singular} - used before vowels (ex: l'uccello - "the bird")
lo {singular} - used before Z, GN or S + another consonant (ex: lo scarafaggio - "the cockroach")

i {plural} - used before consonants (ex: i gatti - "the cats")
gli {plural} - used before vowels, Z, GN or S + another consonant (ex: gli orsi - "the bears", gli scorpioni - "the scorpions")

Feminine articles

la {singular} - used before consonants (ex: la donna - "the woman")
l' {singular} - used before vowels (ex: l'armata - "the armada")

le {plural} - used before consonants and vowels (ex: le rane - "the frogs", le aquile - "the eagles")


Indefinite articles (a/an)

Masculine articles

un {singular} - used before consonants and vowels (ex: un uomo - "a man", un glas - "a glass")
uno {singular} - used before Z, GN, or S + another consonant (ex: uno zio - "an uncle")

dei {plural} - used before consonants (ex: dei cani - "some dogs")
degli {plural} - used before vowels, Z, GN, or S + another consonant (ex: degli uomini - "some men", degli sport - "some sports")

Feminine articles

una {singular} - used before consonants (ex: una farfalla - "a butterfly")
un' {singular} - used before vowels (ex: un'alba - "a dawn")

delle {plural} - used before consonants and vowels (ex: delle mele - "some apples", delle uve - "some grapes")


Demonstrative articles (this/that)

Masculine articles

questo/quel {singular} - used before consonants (ex: questo ragno - "this spider", quel ragno - "that spider")
quest'/quell' {singular} - used before vowels (ex: quest'oro - "this gold", quell'oro - "that gold")

questi/quei {plural} - used before consonants (ex: questi vino - "this wine", quei vino - "that wine")
questi/quegli {plural} - used before vowels (ex: questi universi - "these universes", quegli universi - "those universes")

Feminine articles

questa/quella {singular} - used before consonants (ex: questa birra - "this beer", quella birra - "that beer")
quest'/quell' {singular} - used before a vowel (ex: quest'acqua - "this water", quell'acqua - "that water")

queste/quelle {plural} - used before vowels and consonants (ex: queste sorelle - "these sisters", quelle sorelle - "those sisters")


Pluralization

To pluralize nouns normally, remove the ending vowel (if any) and add -i to all masculine verbs and all feminine nouns ending in -e, and add -e to all feminine nouns not ending in -e.

EX:

il ragazzo (the boy) - i ragazzi (the boys)
la ragazza (the girl) - le ragazze (the girls)

il programa (the program) - i programi (the programs)
la complicazione (the complication) - le complicazioni (the complications)

Nouns ending in an accented vowel don't change in the plural:

la libertà (the liberty) - le libertà (the liberties)
la città (the city) - le città (the cities)

All feminine nouns ending in ca/ga need to add -he instead of -e, so that pronunciation is reserved. I can't think of any examples, though.
-hi is also usually added to masculine nouns ending in -co/go for the same reason, but there are some exceptions that don't add the extra H. Can't think of any examples there, either.

Some irregular pluralizations:

la mano (the hand) - le mani (the hands)
l'uomo (the man) - gli uomini (the men)
il dio (the god) - gli dei (the gods)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:54 pm


Yay! Italian won. whee I can help out some until Firewolfblue comes. I have two very good grammar books. The NTC's guide might have pronunciations for the foreign letters. I'll check.

Hermonie Urameshi

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Hawk_McKrakken

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:54 pm


Marvelous... because I haven't got much more. xp Anything at all you can contribute... anything, is helpful.

I may be able to provide basic conjugations when I'm feeling less lazy, but that's about the only thing more I can contribute until I study the language a little more closely.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:17 pm


Sorry guys, told you I was terribly busy with my job, I work 10 hours everyday, coming back home totally worn out xp crying
And I had problems visualizing the website lately, has anyone had he same problem? neutral
Thank you Hawk_McKrakken and Siocled, and your help will be much appreciated Hermonie Urameshi biggrin You are all welcome to post lessons, advices and questions or request particular lessons you'd like to read; I'll correct if needed and answer as fast and best as I can (and you are welcome to correct my English as well wink )
I can tell you everything written so far is right, exept for the post about the open abd closed O, in 'donna' for example it's open, but in 'rosso' it's closed. As Siocled said, the pronounciation varies from north to south, but the message remains clear; you can hear the correct pronounciation mainly in Tuscany (where I live).
Unfortunately there's no rule to know if E and O in a word are open or closed, you have to check the vocabulary or ask an Italian about it or learn it living here for a while (better if in Tuscany).
I'll post a lesson about the Italian words' right accents and about the double consonants because these can determine the word's meaning and they can be hard to understand to non Italian speaking people.

Please bare with me one more day, on the 15th of August in Italy we have a Christian holiday, called 'Assunzione della Vergine' that is, when Maria died and arose to heaven.It is also called Ferragosto and it's said it's the hottest day in the year (do you have that, too question ); in this day people gathers with family or friends and has BIG lunches or dinners. That means, I'll have an awful lot of work to do burning_eyes . Please be patient!

Firewolfblue


Hermonie Urameshi

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:42 pm


The feast of the Assumption! I have to move my test day to tomorrow because of it, but oh well. At least I get one more day to study. 3nodding
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