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Raevena

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:52 am


If you're dunked in a mikvah before you're married, should it matter?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:10 am


Personally, I think so. It's not like washing yourself for purification, no matter how holy or religious, is going to get your virginity back. Just my opinion, though. sweatdrop

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LordNeuf
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:34 am


I'm gonna defer to Divash on this one. I have no idea if there's a concept of "born again virginity" in Judiasm.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:12 pm


I'm not sure. They do say virginity is purity. And if bathing in a Mikvah makes one pure again, I don't see why sexual purity would be left out of the purifying.

Dis Domnu


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:43 am


If your sexual experience was (G*D forbid!) involuntary, then it affects your body. The hymen will rupture from this. It also may affect your ability to be fully open to sexuality in a loving context. However, because you never made the decision yourself, your choices defend you: you are not a harlot, even by strictest interpretation of Jewish law. Unlike some other religions, Judaism doesn't even suggest that it's better to die than to live after being violated. On the contrary, our Torah tells us "Choose life! that you and your children may live!" In other words, it's better to live and heal than to die in self-defense. It's also better to actively defend your life and your physical safety rather than worry overmuch about causing harm to an attacker.

If your sexual experience before marriage was voluntary, you do bear the responsibility of what has happened. You chose sex. Yes, this does imprint on both your body and your heart. However, on a personal note -- Baruch Hashem, you got to choose something joyful, rather than having something harmful done to you. And yes, the pre-wedding mikvah visit, just like every single monthly mikvah visit for a woman, does wash this away and make you reborn as a new person. This is why women who understand the mitzvah of mikvah find it so important: it's cleansing, revitalizing, refreshing, renewing. We GET to go to the mikvah every month and become a brand new bride again! And men get to go after every seminal emission, as well, making them brand new grooms for their wives every night that they're together.

As always, CYLR (consult your local rav/rabbinic authority) and see what your own community teaches in this subject. Your rav may rule more stringently than mine, or more leniently than mine. I present an unlearned Orthodox viewpoint. A learned viewpoint, of any denomination, is bound to be more well-supported by Torah and other texts than the little bits and pieces I've managed to glean over the years of non-formal study.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:31 am


I dunno but my friend's rabbi seemed to think that I was doing it with him, even though I'm married to someone else and he was engaged to someone else at the time. This was an Orthodox rabbi too. question

sickday


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:04 pm


Are you sure he assumed you were sleeping together? It's possible that he simply said, or meant, that if you were in yichud (solitude) together, someone could misinterpret your relationship.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:05 pm


roothands
I dunno but my friend's rabbi seemed to think that I was doing it with him, even though I'm married to someone else and he was engaged to someone else at the time. This was an Orthodox rabbi too. question


The Rabbi thought you were sleeping with him, or your friend?

Did he say why he thought you were sleeping around?

Dis Domnu


sickday

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:27 am


Divash
Are you sure he assumed you were sleeping together? It's possible that he simply said, or meant, that if you were in yichud (solitude) together, someone could misinterpret your relationship.


Well, first of all he assumed I was his fiancé, cause he said something about how J never makes it to shul and it was a good thing that his fiancé was there to drag him out of bed, which wasn't so bad considering that she also didn't show up very much, and it's easy to assume that I was his fiancé. But then I was like, "oh, I'm not his fiancé, I'm married to someone else, I'm just a friend" and he said something, I forget the exact wording, about how I was there to drag him out of bed, that seemed to suggest that he thought we were sleeping together, but maybe I misunderstood. Either way there were many LULZ to be had between the two of us after that comment.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:16 am


Thats not while Pre-marital sex is forbiden. its Forbiden because its a waste of seed. your not going to have children...are you? I mean, the act of pre-marital sex is just for fun. Condoms and cumming outside are all halachicly not ok. (i dont know why Birth control is razz ) so the act of pre-marital sex is wasting seed. thats jut my opinion.

Alina Sedai

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Dis Domnu

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:58 pm


Alina Sedai
Thats not while Pre-marital sex is forbiden. its Forbiden because its a waste of seed. your not going to have children...are you? I mean, the act of pre-marital sex is just for fun. Condoms and cumming outside are all halachicly not ok. (i dont know why Birth control is razz ) so the act of pre-marital sex is wasting seed. thats jut my opinion.


Believe it or not, people do get pregnant from pre-marital sex.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:12 pm


Dis Domnu
Believe it or not, people do get pregnant from pre-marital sex.


O RLY?! xp
I've always wondered what the religious stance on taking birth control pills is. Has that been established? If not, I'm interested in knowing. To be specific, BC inside the marital/single/dating status for medical purposes.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:06 am


There are communities that forbid birth control or heavily frown on it, and there are communities that say it's a woman's business what she does, and why. From what I can glean from most of my research, the majority of Jewish teaching suggests that the purpose of marital sex is to engender intimacy and enjoyment. It's said to be a foretaste of heaven, by those who believe in an afterlife. The fact that it can result in children thanks to a fertility zone of three to six days a month teaches us that there are an additional three weeks or so per month in which it DOESN'T result in pregnancy, and of those, about a week to week-and-a-half is the time when a Jewish woman is free to be with her husband. Therefore, the purpose of pregnancy is secondary to the purpose of enjoyment.

Jewish men are commanded to reproduce (if medically able), but not ad nauseum. They're required to replace themselves on earth: two children. Women, by the way, are not likewise commanded. So, as long as you've had or intend to have children at some point, controlling the timing and number should be permitted.

There are some halachic opinions that suggest that a man is forbidden to ejaculate unless there is the possibility of the creation of life. I don't hold by that myself, but for those who do, condoms can present a halachic problem. I know people who answer it by saying they can use any OTHER form of birth control besides a condom. I know others who say (usually after having a child by this method) that since condoms do break, they're permitted too.

In short: If you ask a rabbi's opinion, you should go by what he says. I'd honestly suggest not asking, if you want to use birth control.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:47 pm


Haha, too late! Thanks for the information though. That's one of the subjects I have a hard time getting out of people, so it's useful to know.

In my own personal opinion, which doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, it should be a personal decision, because it's a personal matter. I know rabbis are rabbis for a reason, and that they are all very mature people, but I still have a hard time with the idea of talking about all my lady business with clergyman/woman. Perhaps it's something to get used to.

kingpinsqeezels


acemancory

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:30 pm


in my opinion, premarital sex is normal, even the isreali kings had concubines, and for those of you who dont know, concubines are women who arnt married to an indivisual, but provide extra children for the man of the house
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