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 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:29 pm
just want to settle an arguement with my sister who in your opinion is the strongest captain not counting the General or Aizen
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:27 pm
Definitely Zaraki Kenpachi. Even without Bankai, he was able to force Ichigo to expend all of his energy in a huge final strike that toppled all of the buildings around them in a huge radius of a good few blocks.
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:28 pm
That logic is kinda flawed in that Kuchiki Byakuya forced Ichigo to do the same thing while Ichigo was in bankai form. But my vote goes to Shunsui and Ukitake who've held their seats as Captains the longest and where able to stand up to the General Commander.
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:02 pm
Actually, it has been proven that Ichigo's Bankai only increases his speed. Which means that Ichigo could've easily done the same thing to Byakuya using merely his Shikai. The only reason Ichigo needed Bankai was because he couldn't keep up with Byakuya's speed.
So think about it. Byakuya in Bankai couldn't even stand up to Ichigo. But Kenpachi using his own spirit force alone nearly decimated Ichigo.
And actually, those two didn't actually ever fight the General, all they did was release their Shikai's, and then they skipped everything else, so we don't really know their level of strength. But I don't doubt they're probably very strong.
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:41 am
That's flawed.
Zaraki wasn't facing Ichigo in his bankai form whereas Kuchiki Byakuya was/has. If anything that counts against Zaraki NOT Byakuya.
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:13 am
Kuroudo Akabane That's flawed. Zaraki wasn't facing Ichigo in his bankai form whereas Kuchiki Byakuya was/has. If anything that counts against Zaraki NOT Byakuya. Why do people keep thinking what I say is flawed? Is there some kind of piece of paper on my back or something? Look, Ichigo's Bankai does not increase any attribute other than speed, so obviously when he fought Byakuya, his attack where he used all of his spirit force at once was just as strong as when he used it on Kenpachi. Meaning that Zaraki can match both Ichigo and Byakuya in power with spirit force alone. Meaning Zaraki can match Byakuya's Bankai, if not compeltely overpower it.
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:48 am
This is a tough choice under normal circumstances.
Now, since we're excluding Aizen Sousuke and Yamamoto-Genryūsai Shigekuni...
Kenpachi Zaraki
As Bauler stated, Kenpachi Zaraki is a good candidate despite the fact that he is not only the only captain level shinigami without bankai, but he virtually has no reliability on it. One could probably argue that he hasn't even achieved shikai but then again, Zaraki's zapakuto could be a full-time released form type much like Kurosaki Ichigo's Zangetsu.
Zaraki's strength is mostly displayed in his enormous amount of reiatsu. With this alone he was able to power out of Tousen Kaname's bankai and in the anime filler arc he was able to power out of an attack from Ichinose Maki's zapakuto, Nijigasumi.
Not only that but his durability and endurance is likely top tier out of the entire Bleach case if not the best. Even after being sliced by Ichigo several times his advances never ceased.
Kuchiki Byakuya
The other candidate is likely Kuchiki Byakuya, the current head of the Kuchiki family who are one of four noble houses in Seireitei. That said it's obvious that Kuchiki Byakuya comes from a family with a lot of wealth and prestige, however, Byakuya is hardly just some rich boy.
Shinigami whom are of nobility are evidently not only powerful individuals monetarily but in combat potential as well. This is also displayed by not only notoriety of Kuchiki Byakuya himself but that of Shihouin Yoruichi, former captain of the shinigami corps 2nd Divison; special forces.
Even, Abarai Renji's flashback in episode 52-53, Ikkaku Madarame had this to say about Renji's goal "Stronger than Kuchiki Byakuya, huh? That's one hell of a goal." Renji himself at the time being a subordinate of the aforementioned Kenpachi Zaraki in Division 11.
While Zaraki is definitely captain level as he had killed his predecessor to achieve his current rank, Ikkaku's statement virtually makes it clear that Byakuya is still the man beat out of the 13 Court Guardian Squads as if not counting the Commander General, one couldn't aim any higher for someone to surpass.
That said, I don't think we should count Kuchiki Byakuya out in a fight against Kenpachi Zaraki.
Kind of makes you wish Ichimaru hadn't interfered in bit of a bicker they had in episode 20, huh...~_^?
Soifon
My next choice may seem a bit unlikely but, Soifon is rather impressive. Her skills are on par with with Shihouin Yoruichi's and probably second only to hers. Then there is her zapakuto, Suzumebachi. In its shikai, Suzumebachi shrinks into a stinger that is worn on the middle finger of Soifon's right hand. When Soifon stabs someone with Suzumebachi, a butterfly symbol called a hornet's crest (蜂紋華, hōmonka) spreads from the point of contact, its abdomen acting as the center. If Soifon stabs the same location again, her opponent dies, regardless of how powerful they may be.
This means that this may be a rather tall order even for the likes of Kenpachi Zaraki and granted that Soifon is on par with Yoruichi in shunpo, whose own speed is quicker than that of Kuchiki Byakuya's, Soifon may be able to give Byakuya a run for his money as well.
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:30 am
Baulder Kuroudo Akabane That's flawed. Zaraki wasn't facing Ichigo in his bankai form whereas Kuchiki Byakuya was/has. If anything that counts against Zaraki NOT Byakuya. Why do people keep thinking what I say is flawed? Is there some kind of piece of paper on my back or something? Look, Ichigo's Bankai does not increase any attribute other than speed, so obviously when he fought Byakuya, his attack where he used all of his spirit force at once was just as strong as when he used it on Kenpachi. Meaning that Zaraki can match both Ichigo and Byakuya in power with spirit force alone. Meaning Zaraki can match Byakuya's Bankai, if not compeltely overpower it.
While it may or may not be feasible for Zaraki to power out of Senbonzakura Kageyoshi's legion of cherry blossom petals, in
the case of case of Kurosaki Ichigo when using Tensa Zangetsu
there wouldn't be anything for Zaraki to power out of to begin with.
Yes, Tensa Zangetsu increases Ichigo's speed, BUT it also gives
him matching reflexes and agility. Not only that but Ichigo's speed
when using said bankai, is beyond those of even shunpo. That said,
likely when using bankai Ichigo is probably the fastest character
in the Bleach universe.
This would be a bit much for Zaraki as he's never faced an opponent
of this caliber. It could be like Spider-Man v. The Hulk all over again.
The Hulk had higher durability, endurance, and strength, however,
what won the fight for Spidey, aside from The Hulk's lack of intelligence
when transformed, was that The Hulk couldn't touch him.
In fact, when Ichigo first fought Zaraki he hadn't even mastered shunpo, let alone his bankai, Tensa Zangetsu, which grants him speed beyond
shunpo. This was prior to his training under Shihouin Yoruichi.
Not only that but the two opponents (one if you want to be canon with the
manga) has defeated to date didn't even rely on the use of speed in their
attempts to defeat him.
Tousen Kaname: Used his bankai, Enma Kōrogi, in which Suzumushi creates a large black dome anchored to the ground with ten rings.
Anything within loses every sense except for touch.
Ichinose Maki: Used Nijigasumi's ability to engulf Zaraki in a huge
orb of light.
In both instances, Zaraki's opponent tried to basically contain
him instead of out fight him. That said, it's a simple enough solution
for Zaraki to just use his overwhelming amount of reiatsu to power-
out of such predicaments.
But you cannot power out of being cut. It's like asking someone to
block rain with their just they're hands. Either way, you're going
to get wet. In otherwords, it's not the correct logical solution when
someone is cutting the s**t out you.
Also Ichigo's reiatsu, likely surpasses Zaraki as Ulquiorra stated
that Ichigo's reiatsu is likely even higher than his which for the
record Ulquiorra Schiffer is ranked number 4 out of the Arrancar
Espada (top ten ranked Arrancar in power rating) and one made
from a vasto lorde (highest ranked Menos-class Hollow).
Bottomline: Ichigo when it comes down to it already ranks up
there with the Arrancar Espada whom ALL shinigami captains
by definition at least and for the time being rank below as
Hitsugaya Toushirou himself stated.
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:38 pm
Wait a minute, all of that only pertains to Ichigo beating Zaraki. We already know that Ichigo is capable of beating Zaraki. What I'm saying is that Zaraki could beat Byakuya.
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:07 pm
Baulder Wait a minute, all of that only pertains to Ichigo beating Zaraki. We already know that Ichigo is capable of beating Zaraki. What I'm saying is that Zaraki could beat Byakuya.
as a measuring stick relative to Ichigo v. Zaraki which is flawed because
Ichigo is beyond what is considered "typical" for even a shinigami captain.
Ichigo has an insane amount of reiatsu even beyond Zaraki's
and not to mention because of the process by which he obtained
shinigami powers to begin with he has hollow traits.
But to get to the bones of this. Byakuya is far superior to either of
the individuals Zaraki has defeated. Not only that but while Zaraki does
indeed possess a huge amount of reiatsu, he has no mastery beyond
his swordsmanship of typical shinigami combat curriculum, something
that Kuchiki has mastered; kido and shunpo in particular.
Tousen Kaname is probably the only comparable character Zaraki has
faced and defeated to date and even then there is no comparison to
Kuchiki Byakuya. Tousen let Zaraki's immense reiastsu intimidate him
and lost his cool when his ace in the hole didn't play out so well.
Byakuya on the otherhand, while he maybe impressed at the least,
isn't one who possesses Tousen's cowardice and he's hardly offset
by a surprise here and there, take when Abarai Renji achieved bankai
or when Ichigo's inner hollow took over.
Byakuya is calm and collected and always seems to find a niche
if not understand his opponent's modus operandi sometimes better
than he or she himself or herself does.
Zaraki can be analytical himself as depicted when he told Ichinose
Maki about himself when Ichinose himself claimed his own actions
were to solely help Kariya achieve his goals. However, again Zaraki
only seems to have an edge when it comes to opponents who seem
to be lacking, afraid, and/or in denial mentally. They're usually
cowards who to a degree can't admit to they're own problems and
try to antagonize Zaraki because he's the antithesis of the only
shield (like bringing down the hammer of justice or fighting for peace)
for their insecurities.
Byakuya Kuchiki doesn't have such a demeanor and any remnants
have long since been settled since the Rukia affair concluded in
the first arc.
You're also forgetting that Senbonzakura Kageyoshi has two additional
forms; senkei and shukei tge latter may especially be a bit of a problem
for Zaraki. 
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:56 pm
First off, using Ichigo as the basis for a comparison is compeltely valid! Because those factors you talk of don't actually come in until waaay later into the series. By the time Zaraki was finished with Ichigo, he was knocked out for days. In the Byakuya fight, Ichigo still had enough strength to stand back up and throw some blows at Aizen (But then again, he did have the Hollow come out for a bit there, so you can't really say much there.)
Just because he's only fought those type of guys so far doesn't mean those are the only guys he can beat. It's just his little role in the show. But Byakuya doesn't really seem to have changed from his old egolostical, "All against Soul Society must die." attitude, as seen when he outright attacked Ichigo when then Bounto attacked Soul society.
From what I've seen of Senkai, it doesn't really seem like much of a problem for Zaraki. I mean, all it does is surrounds them in swords, and then Byakuya goes one on one with them. I really don't see whats the difference between that and not using bankai at all.
But the second form, yes, that will be a dandy. I'm sure Zaraki will atleast have to take off his eyepatch for that.
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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:37 am
Baulder First off, using Ichigo as the basis for a comparison is compeltely valid! Because those factors you talk of don't actually come in until waaay later into the series. By the time Zaraki was finished with Ichigo, he was knocked out for days. In the Byakuya fight, Ichigo still had enough strength to stand back up and throw some blows at Aizen (But then again, he did have the Hollow come out for a bit there, so you can't really say much there.) Just because he's only fought those type of guys so far doesn't mean those are the only guys he can beat. It's just his little role in the show. But Byakuya doesn't really seem to have changed from his old egolostical, "All against Soul Society must die." attitude, as seen when he outright attacked Ichigo when then Bounto attacked Soul society. From what I've seen of Senkai, it doesn't really seem like much of a problem for Zaraki. I mean, all it does is surrounds them in swords, and then Byakuya goes one on one with them. I really don't see whats the difference between that and not using bankai at all. But the second form, yes, that will be a dandy. I'm sure Zaraki will at least have to take off his eyepatch for that.
of in the here and now. These are current hard facts and Zaraki
v. Ichigo would probably hardly be fair to even the likes of Zaraki.
What you're saying is like limiting Modern Age Superman to the feats
and capabilities of Silver Age Superman in a fight against Son Gokou
or any other character people would consider a challenge for The Man
of Steel.
If not this, it's like saying that Wolverine has never been able to re-
generate, although we know this is retconned as readers, the bottomline
is that this is now fact and to discount this factor in any vs fight involving
Wolvie would be hardly a thorough argument.
Indeed it doesn't mean that such individuals are the only ones that
Zaraki are capable of defeating, but nonetheless, he's still facing a
completely different animal and he will likely have to take this into
consideration when facing an opponent with a different modus operandi.
Looking for bullets may help you identify a serial killer but they
won't help much in identifying a serial rapist.
Take Soifon for instance, even Zaraki would have to take into
consideration that all it takes, even for him, is for Soifon to
stab twice in the same spot with Suzumebachi released and it's
instant death.
Actually, with senkai, he is able to control those swords to the point
where they'll all more or less home in on the target in question. Not
to mention we're talking a legion of swords. Think of it as substitut-
ing the cherry blossom petals usually portrayed by Senbonzakura
for actual katana.
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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:13 am
Yes, I know what Ichigo is capable of here and now, but that's not what I'm talking about! I'm using that single event, back all way when he didn't have all of that, merely as a comparison. All of that would only matter if it were Ichigo himself that Zaraki is fighting, but I'm not talking about Zaraki fighitng Ichigo! I'm talking about him fighitng Byakuya! I'm merely using the Ichigo comparison to relate their powers because they themselves have not actually fought each other! (Though they came really close. Damn, I wish they would make an episode where they fight! It would be kickass!)
And what the heck was with the serial killer metaphor? O.o?
Indeed, but Soifon is nothing like Byakuya. He doesn't have any instant death techniques. But even if he did, I doubt Zaraki would be entirely nerved by it. We've all seen how worked up he can get if a battle is 'interesting.' But damn, I wish he were in a few more battles so I had a little more information... We jsut haven't seen enough of his battles to correctly sum up his strength! I wish he were ina Bounto fight, that would've been awesome.
Hmm, Senkai can do that? I surprised Byakuya didn't do that though. Why does he only go one one one instead?
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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:47 pm
Baulder Yes, I know what Ichigo is capable of here and now, but that's not what I'm talking about! I'm using that single event, back all way when he didn't have all of that, merely as a comparison. All of that would only matter if it were Ichigo himself that Zaraki is fighting, but I'm not talking about Zaraki fighitng Ichigo! I'm talking about him fighitng Byakuya! I'm merely using the Ichigo comparison to relate their powers because they themselves have not actually fought each other! (Though they came really close. Damn, I wish they would make an episode where they fight! It would be kickass!) And what the heck was with the serial killer metaphor? O.o? Indeed, but Soifon is nothing like Byakuya. He doesn't have any instant death techniques. But even if he did, I doubt Zaraki would be entirely nerved by it. We've all seen how worked up he can get if a battle is 'interesting.' But damn, I wish he were in a few more battles so I had a little more information... We jsut haven't seen enough of his battles to correctly sum up his strength! I wish he were ina Bounto fight, that would've been awesome. Hmm, Senkai can do that? I surprised Byakuya didn't do that though. Why does he only go one one one instead?
However, it's his own internal struggles and lack of experience that even
makes either Byakuya and Zaraki still seem like good rivals for him. So
in that aspect you do have a point in your comparison.
In fact, it's only recently that everyone has started training to actually
increase their strength due to the threat of the Arrancar compared to
conventional Hollows.
Even Byakuya has only had a brief scuffle with Kariya after Ichigo in
which Ichigo himself had interfered in. I don't think fighting the a Bount
would change much in Zaraki. The arc itself wasn't actually all that bad
by any means for a non-canonical filler but I wasn't really impressed
with any of the Bount save for Kariya himself. In fact, it was only once
they actually broke into Soul Society that they were truly even worth
a damn because of the endless supply of spirit particles allowed for
virtually instant regeneration but Soifon and Kurotsuchi Mayuri's respective
zapakuto abilities made short work of that problem with the two that
they faced.
Yes, senkai, at this point according to definition at least, can be worked
that way. The only instance where I've seen it actually done in is in the
Bleach game Bleach DS: Souten ni Kakeru Unmei and it's sequel,
Bleach DS 2nd: Kokui Hirameku Requiem (which I would like to buy
sometime in the near future)..
However, it is stated here: http://senbonzakura.org/domain.php, which
in turn was pulled from Wikipedia.
Byakuya, when he used Senkei against Ichigo, told him that he is only
the second person to see it. I'm not sure whether or not that there is
an instance when he's used this which predates everything that's actually
been depicted within the manga itself OR if the FIRST INSTANCE
when he's used Senkei is referring to when he had several blade rain
down on Abarai Renji after incapacitating Renji's bankai then using
Senbonzakura Kageyoshi on him.
The blades did indeed look to be those used in Senkei. As to the specifics
why Byakuya didn't use this against Ichigo, it's difficult to say, however,
according to Byakuya's modus operandi he prefers to immobilize his
opponent first, which with all the blades he has at his disposal he has more
than enough to do so, then he can either have them home in on his
adversary subsequently virtually one after another or have them all stike
simultaneously for one lethal strike.
As for the serial killer metaphor, I'm saying that fighting Byakuya would
likely be a lot different than fighting anyone has fought thus far including
Ichigo himself. That said, he would have to apply a somewhat different
strategy. If Byakuya immobilizes Zaraki it's all over.
SIDE NOTE ABOUT THE AFOREMENTIONED GAMES: YES PEOPLE IF YOU OWN A NINTENDO DS (Lite) IT IS A REGION FREE CONSOLE AND YOU CAN PLAY JAPANESE IMPORTS ON IT!!
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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:03 pm
Haha, Kurotsuchi is aweomse though... Beat down on the old guy...
And your URL says it's expired...
Zaraki has been immobolized several times and powered his way out of it! Remember, you yourself said that the reason all the other captains always lsot was because they tried to contain him. Immobilization is no different. If Byakuya tries to stop his movements using several blades, Zaraki will blow them away with his massive reserves of Spirit energy.
Wow... never knew that about the DS....
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