*SPOILERS* I wana talk about Chrono Cross in general, and that'll involve the game's crazy story.
A recent retro review on RPGamer got me thinking about Chrono Cross again. They gave it a 2.5. I don't agree. However, I don't wholly disagree. I'd bring up the score a bit, but I I'm not sure where (and I'm not big on such a low point scale).
Anyway, on with the show: time has passed, and it hasn't really healed any wounds. It's hard to call them wounds, really. Just mild cuts. They've gotten worse over time. There were complaints I had, but nearly everything was erased once I got to the frozen Chronopolis and the mystery set in. That was one of my favorite OMG moments in video games, and it kinda over shadowed any complaints I had for the game. I mean, that was where you finally found out just what the heck happened to everything you knew!
...and that is sorta where the problem lies. The little cuts. Everyone from Chrono Trigger died. The world was gone, just about. Heck, the whole story of Chrono Cross was miles aways from Chrono Trigger for a vast majority of it, since it had about three different stories to tell before it could tell you even a sliver of what it had to do with Chrono Trigger. I understand sequels can be sort of spin-offs of the main event. They can take you in another direction; sorta based on events of the first, but not really continuing them.
Problem here, is that they just made up SO many events between Trigger and Cross. I mean, A LOT. Perhaps two other games worth. By the time they get done telling you all that and the story surrounding the world, they gotta tell you that was ALL WRONG and that the real story is whatever happened in Chronopolis and - low and behold - THERE'S Chrono Trigger! Sort of! Maybe. I mean, there's some stuff there about what happened after Chrono Trigger...and it's good! I ate it up! That's what made me ignore the cuts for so long.
But man...why? Why make such a convoluted story and even bother connecting it to Chrono Trigger? On top of that, why involve Schala and NOT involve Magus? The one big, gaping, glaring HOLE in the end of Chrono Trigger. Not to mention Schala not even looking like Schala...
So I guess where I'm going with this is a question: Time has passed. Perhaps you've been playing this game a lot over the years, but I haven't. What do you think of it now? How has it impacted you, in terms of your love of Chrono Trigger? Do you love it more than Trigger? Do you feel the story was completely understandable, and that it's necessary to shake things up to avoid simply redoing Trigger for a sequel so the fans are happy?
A penny for your thoughts, I suppose.
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:24 pm
I believe that Chrono Cross shall forever not be a true sequel to Chrono Trigger... maybe good as a stand-alone game with pretty music, a myriad of quirky characters, and a wild storyline - but never as awesome as Chrono Trigger is. Heck, it sometimes offends me a bit with some of the stuff it contains that it sadly attempts to link itself to the original with (like what you mentioned, Alexx#2, the fact that they completely changed what Schala looked like... and not to mention changed her personality, as well). As a friend of mine pointed out to me about how they made it look as though all the trouble you go through in the first game is horribly undone and for naught in the 2nd, it's like the game designers decided to wuss-ify the main characters and pull what the storyline of Terminator 3 tried to do to its universe - throw key points of the story out the window and just fool around with the details like some quickly and crappily made fanfic.
Often I wonder how different things might've been for the game, had Square actually gotten Akira Toriyama to do the art and Yuji Horii write the story... if it could have been a truly decent sequel to what I consider to be the greatest RPG jewel of all time. Makes me get depressed and yearn for Square-Enix to be kind to the fans and finally release a REAL sequel... or at least a 3rd game involving the same epicness that the game Blue Dragon did with Akira Toriyama's artwork (wish I could say that it involve Horii-san, but he already said he won't do it).
As a friend of mine pointed out to me about how they made it look as though all the trouble you go through in the first game is horribly undone and for naught in the 2nd, it's like the game designers decided to wuss-ify the main characters and pull what the storyline of Terminator 3 tried to do to its universe - throw key points of the story out the window and just fool around with the details like some quickly and crappily made fanfic.
I agree, to a point. On one hand, yes, they completely destroyed everything you worked for in the first game. On the other hand...well, like I said, I was really drawn to what had happened! Yes, it was destroying my original journey with those characters...but damnit, it was interesting! At least, the part where they told you about it. However, by that point, you're just bystanders. It only matters to the player...the characters are just kinda there. And as we've been saying: Schala is just not herself. She barely acknowledges anything that brought her to where she is.
I guess I'm just a sucker for the kinda story where everything you know is totally changed. I really want to like this one as well. I think that's what put the veil over my eyes. I LOVE that kinda thing! Everything is in chaos - why? What happened? Where are we? OH! Something Familiar! ...you know what I mean? That's what I was feeling, and it was exciting! As time passed, though, it feels more and more like what your friend was saying. I don't feel so much like they ruined what had happened, but I feel that they ruined an interesting idea that they had.
Kara Kazeneko
Often I wonder how different things might've been for the game, had Square actually gotten Akira Toriyama to do the art and Yuji Horii write the story... if it could have been a truly decent sequel to what I consider to be the greatest RPG jewel of all time. Makes me get depressed and yearn for Square-Enix to be kind to the fans and finally release a REAL sequel... or at least a 3rd game involving the same epicness that the game Blue Dragon did with Akira Toriyama's artwork (wish I could say that it involve Horii-san, but he already said he won't do it).
Yes, a very fine point. Things could have been SOOOO much different. However, I wonder how far from the original game they could have taken it? I don't want to see all my faves return (though I would certainly not be against it completely) because I don't want to see them try to remake the original with a new story. Ya know "Look, more Chrono Trigger! You guys like that, right?" I liked what they were trying with Cross...they just botched it so horribly. More connections to Trigger, and friggin' MAGUS, Schala's brother, could make a damn apperance. He would be ridiculously important to the story, I'd imagine. Not only that, but MAN, they'd have to cut down on a lot of the side stuff with the dragons and whatnot. Great stuff all, but TOO MUCH in one game, especially when it's supposed to be a sequel to something. So much to think about...
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:42 pm
I understand what you mean about the story being interesting because it changed the storyline so much. It's just that they sure did cram way too much extra stuff into it that didn't really need to be there, and also that it did not have enough good links to CT (and ohhh yes... omitting Magus from the story was pure stupid; after all, one of my fave endings to CT is the one where part of it involves Magus going off in search of Schala). Btw, I did enjoy the bit about the dragons... just felt like it would've been more suited to not being in the game but turned into a seperate game altogether.
Well, Guile was meant to be Magus. Originally, Lucca had discovered who Magus was and asked him to watch over Kid incase anything ever happened to her - so he agreed out of his loyalty to both Lucca and Schala, and in the game Radical Dreamers (which WAS a game between Trigger and Cross, released only in Japan) he took up the persona of Guile and traveled with Kid as she had her adventures in that Robin-hood-esque group.
I loved Cross, but I respect the reasons others have for not wanting to associate it with Chrono Trigger. It wasn't just a different story, it was a different game with a different mood to it as well. Trigger was all about rising up against the darkness, inner strength, hope, and determinations coming to bloom and battle against an impossible enemy, and redemption even in the darkest of souls.
Cross was darker, it was even a bit more psychological than romantic heroism. There are hard choices to make at some points, and though the entire game is sugarcoated with anime graphics and art, bright colors and even brighter musical scores, there are moments that are so tragic that they contrast the entire rest of the game completely. A burned orphanage, heros of the past dead and gone, and all that they worked for destroyed by the same enemy they thought they'd defeated. It DOES irritate some people with that point, making the previous game seem futile, but I would disagree. All the hard efforts and work done in the first game made the world of the second possible, there was no useless ventures made, and though it wasn't the pretty future everyone dreamed about it was better than no future at all.
That's just my take on it.
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:00 am
robayn
Well, Guile was meant to be Magus. Originally, Lucca had discovered who Magus was and asked him to watch over Kid incase anything ever happened to her - so he agreed out of his loyalty to both Lucca and Schala, and in the game Radical Dreamers (which WAS a game between Trigger and Cross, released only in Japan) he took up the persona of Guile and traveled with Kid as she had her adventures in that Robin-hood-esque group.
Hm...I was under the impression that Radical Dreamers was reformed into Chrono Cross, making it's story obsolete. I could be wrong, but if you take both stories as canon, then they clash (last I remember). In fact, I like Radical Dreamers a lot better, to tell you the truth. It tells a similar story, but cuts all the fat that fills up Chrono Cross. On top of that, as you said, it actually bring Magus into the equation! For the life of me, I have no idea why that particular fact was cut from Chrono Cross. If you have to cut something, for pete's sake...why that? A major component of Chrono Trigger?
Quote:
I loved Cross, but I respect the reasons others have for not wanting to associate it with Chrono Trigger. It wasn't just a different story, it was a different game with a different mood to it as well. Trigger was all about rising up against the darkness, inner strength, hope, and determinations coming to bloom and battle against an impossible enemy, and redemption even in the darkest of souls.
Cross was darker, it was even a bit more psychological than romantic heroism. There are hard choices to make at some points, and though the entire game is sugarcoated with anime graphics and art, bright colors and even brighter musical scores, there are moments that are so tragic that they contrast the entire rest of the game completely. A burned orphanage, heros of the past dead and gone, and all that they worked for destroyed by the same enemy they thought they'd defeated. It DOES irritate some people with that point, making the previous game seem futile, but I would disagree. All the hard efforts and work done in the first game made the world of the second possible, there was no useless ventures made, and though it wasn't the pretty future everyone dreamed about it was better than no future at all.
That's just my take on it.
I feel what you mean, and it's part of what I was talking about. I really do love the dark themes, and I felt the story grab me as any good story should. Nonetheless, I still feel all the good stuff is weighed down by so much...there's just too much story there. Like I said farther up the thread; the story of the dragons and FATE and all that is just fanastic, and I loved it. But man...all in one place? There just isn't enough room to take Chrono Cross's own story AND continue Chrono Trigger.
I agree that the future they fought for didn't need to be perfect, and like I said, I do like finding out what had happened. I think Lucca's mistake that froze everything was on of gamings biggest WTF moments, and I loved it. I just wish the game felt like there was room for that and everything else. I think a total remake of the game would be fantastic; maybe even a severing of the game into two, so that it could make a little more sense. Both things that'll never happen, of course, but like I said, I really liked what they were trying for. I wish they could try it again.
AlexxRedd
Offline
Lucca the Inventor
Confident Genius
Offline
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:26 am
Wow, this thread is dang old, but I don't care. I think it'll be fun. Also I'm gonna spoiler tag it, because it's long as heck.
To be fair, the creation of Chronopolis wasn't Lucca's doing. It was Balthazar. He set it all up as a massive gambit to save Schala. Which, while good intentioned, meant he had no ******** to give about who he hurt along the way to achieve that end goal.
The one to blame for so many Trigger things being cut though is their marketing guys. They said nobody wanted old things in a new game and that the game wouldn't sell if it was about the old characters. So they strongarmed the team into changing it and the most they could do for poor Magus was leave a trail of breadcrumb hints for fans to follow to reveal who Guile was since they weren't allowed to openly say it. It pretty much gets confirmed by the DS release where Magus has his memory wiped and can continue on from there as Guile who is looking for something but doesn't know what it is. He even mirrors Magus DS lines about not needing dark powers to find what he's looking for.
If it makes you feel any better though, I personally don't believe our main cast died. (Well...except the ones in the past that would have died of age, naturally) I'll explain why.
First point is...Dalton? Really? He couldn't murder jack diddly even with the Porre army at his back. I personally think if anything Chrono and Marle would have escaped with Lucca's help to regroup and figure out what to do and retaken Guardia at some point.
My proof, such as it is, is that in the General Kid ending, she claims her next goal will be to conquer Guardia. Making it sound as though it's become it's own nation again. This would make sense if Chrono, Marle and Lucca and been able to use oust Porre and beef up their defenses so much that an attack was deemed practically impossible to accomplish. It would also explain why Porre was expanding into El Nido in order to get the land and resource to attack again before Guardia is strong enough to launch an attack themselves.
Also is the glaring problem in Lucca's letter to Kid. She speaks of her worries that enemies will travel through time to harm her and her friends, but the way the letter is written, it would have been penned -after- the attack on Guardia. Which would make sense if she suspected that a time traveling enemy was the one to attack in the first place. But the fact that she still has friends to worry about that might have acts of revenge carried out against them could really only mean Chrono and Marle. She then speaks of Kid's tomboy-ish ways, but according to the cannon, the war would have happened when Kid was still a baby. Certainly not enough time to grow into a semblance of the wily girl we know now.
Now, I do believe Lucca is dead for Radical Dreamers (which is an alternate timeline) because it's likely a world where Chrono is left dead as well. So she wouldn't have had as much support trying to defend Guardia and Lynx's actions against her would have been far easier to accomplish. But I think Cross is different in that Guardia was retaken and due to that Lucca escaped Lynx's assault somehow.
Unfortunately Kid never saw Lucca die. She only saw her taken. And who is the only one to say Lucca died? Lynx himself. The one person who it's actually beneficial to keep Kid running after him blindly because she's leading Serge directly to him every time. It makes sense that he'd goad her that way, even if it was a lie and she'd have no reason to disbelieve it.
Now, I know the Chronopolis ghosts seem pretty indicative, but there's at least an explanation. They are the heroes of dead timelines. Not the current one, and there's another theory for the ending ghosts that it's the spirit of the planet itself, the one that guided our original heroes, speaking through images of them as avatars. Perhaps even allowing the Lucca of Radical Dreamers to speak with Kid through the avatar so she could relieve herself of some regret.
And once Schala is rescued and the timelines are 'fixed', Robo would likely no longer have a future where he would be tied to the FATE machine and therefor also has a much happier future to live in.
All that would be left is for Kid and Guile to return to Guardia at some point and find out their friends were alive. Kid would leave again and marry Serge as indicated by the picture on the desk, (In my own personal ship, Lucca and Magus would find each other again. <3 ) As for what would happen to Dalton and Porre? Not sure. But if he was still around, he'd have four heroes of time to deal with and had lost his grip on El Nido, so I doubt he'd last long against that.
That said though, it really is sad to see so many glimpses of what the story should have been. Especially in the character models. It kinda looks like we almost got a game with more time traveling into Guardia's past. Like Dario/Glenn, being dressed decidedly in a very un-El Nido style, look more like they were meant to be Cyrus and the Glenn we all know and love. Especially since Dario had an attack style built around him to use the Masamune. It really does seem at some point in the story they wanted to tell, you'd have had them in your party.
Also, does anyone else find it hilarious that Pierre is actually wearing the -real- heroes medal the whole time but only gets powered up by the stage prop junk?
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:43 am
Agreeing with Sinivar on this one, even in the Japanese text of the game, -NO ONE- refers to Lucca as being dead, when kid does talk about her 'sister' she says she 'never came back' in english, and in japanese she is said to 'remain missing' Now, before you guys call the CPS on us, let me explain the scenario.
Lucca's House is on fire, the orphans have just barely been saved by some sort of mysterious bandana-wearing kid that no one ever sees again. At some point in time, Lucca loses her glasses, and, given that both Lynx and Harle are looking out a window?
She freakin' dove out of it to A) escape the two of them, and B) escape the fire.
Once she comes back, she finds all the orphans accounted for except one.
Schala, or Kid, as she's taken to calling her.
Why?
When future Serge saves past Kid, he takes her far away from the orphanage, in fact, he goes across the bridge back to the mainland. he does -NOT- lead the other orphans to this place. Only Kid, which makes sense, he too is under the belief that her caretaker is dead.
Serge Vanishes, called back to his present time by the dwindling powers of the Chrono Cross or Masa, Mune, and Doreen, depending on how he got there.
Kid remains alone, sad, frightened, and angry. She turns her back on her childhood home and begins to live by her wits, swearing vengeance on Lynx.
Five years later, she rescues a boy from an ambush in the island nation of El Nido.
Reply
