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Gaia's world martial artist tournament that pits the best fighters against one another for the title of Gaia's Best! 

Tags: tenkaichi, budokai, battle, tournament 

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The Thunder Tyrant

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:04 pm


I think there's always going to be people who do that. But at the same time, if you say "Here, look, this is a pretty good outline of what we're looking for", I think a lot of people will also try to pre-emptively balance towards that in order to get in as fast as possible.

I doubt most people create characters from scratch for no other purpose than entering the tournament, but if you hand them a good guideline beforehand, you can at least hope that they TRY to follow it before they submit a profile, and if they don't, they have something to look at to try and help them in tandem with the judges comments.

Also my internet is going berserk. Goddammit.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:10 pm


The new power level standard is Street Fighter. ( game )

The inspiration and awesomeness level standard is Street Fighter. ( anime )


Done. Make it look and sound like Street Fighter anime, but make it play mechanically and balance-wise like the game. Kind of like Mortal Kombat.

Knight Breaker


The Thunder Tyrant

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:22 pm


Still need an explanation for the power cap.

Like "Ryu or Ken are cool. Akuma.. not so much."

Because Akuma is OP as s**t in the story.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:26 pm


Is he OP in the game? y/n

You can look really cool and be AWESOME DEMON GUY in your posts and just... you know, fight people at a fair power level. You just have to achieve domination by different means. Either that or your raw power has to be offset by other weaknesses in order to keep things fair and make it so that there's a legitimate strategy to beating you.

Knight Breaker


The Thunder Tyrant

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:46 pm


Irrelevant. Street Fighter is a linear fighting game with a health bar and button combos, none of which translates to freeform RP as we do it in tournaments. What we draw from the game mechanics is also what we draw from the story - that they're martial artists of varying power levels capable of doing some supernatural stuff. That has nothing to do with how the characters are balanced in the game, it has to do with the themes, visuals, and approach to fighting that the game uses.

You can't wholesale translate game mechanics, nor use them as a basis for judgement because again, different mediums. In the game, as long as you hit your combos you can just SHORYUKENSHORYUKENSHORYUKEN as much as you want. There's no prep, no charge, no time, not system like what we look for in powersets for roleplay. Entirely different mechanics for different mediums.

That's why using the actual game mechanics as a basis doesn't work. It never works. When we say "Use Street Fighter", we're not saying use it verbatim, we're saying look at how most of the characters are, they're martial artists with a few superhuman abilities like shooting energy blasts.

Asking "is the character op in the game y/n" is entirely irrelevant because our basis isn't derived from game mechanics, it's from the characters as they're portrayed in the story, and visually in combat, rather than the hard mechanics (combos, health bars, move-lists). I mean, even in game, if you look at their movelists, someone like Akuma can fill the screen with Hadoken blasts. But because the game operates on entirely different mechanics, that ability might not be too great in game.. but might be overpowered in roleplay. Again, you can't rely on game mechanics because, beyond the superficial, they become irrelevant to how things are done in freeform roleplay.

That's why you need actual explanations instead of vague statements. If you give someone a vague statement, don't be surprised if the answers you receive vary.. because you're not giving them a lot of information. You're leaving it open to interpretation.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:56 pm


The answers will vary regardless.

No one is saying you need to take the numbers from Street Fighter and apply them. All that's being said is that your character has to be in that general power level, where you can have a variety of moves and such, but everyone is basically balanced against each other. As far as powers go, you can shoot beams, ki blasts, fiery uppercuts - but you can't blow up an entire city, or levitate a building, or do other crazy things Tetsuo can in AKIRA. You can't go to the late DBZ power level and teleport around.


It's not difficult. KB is pretty strong in non-tournament RP, but when it comes to tournaments his power set is roughly equal to everyone else. There are numbers in his profile to account for the portions where they're needed, otherwise the power of the abilities is listed in the ability.

He can Executioner Choke someone and break a bone, but he can't just blast away the entire part of the body in a tournament. That's the difference between a tournament power level and a free power level. It's subjective, but intuitive.

Knight Breaker


Zou Kraze

Unsealed Aggressor

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:04 pm


I came back to see Darth replied to me but stayed because KB argued my point for me.


You growing on me Bro... and I think I like it. lol
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:06 pm


Well yeah, that's what all of us are saying.

I'm just saying that you need to expand the explanation to minimize confusion. You don't want people to wildly interpret the definition of what's acceptable in your tournament, you want to give them something to shoot for. That means they're interpreting their character in light of what the tournament wants.. not interpreting what the tournament wants in light of what they THINK it means.

Like I said, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with using Street Fighter as a basis, as long as you provide some sort of guideline or outline to help people understand what that really entails. Again you want to minimize the number of potential interpretations and give people a fairly clear view of what you want.

Like you said, some people are always just gonna throw their profile in no matter what and see how it goes. But I think if you set up an explanation for people and said "Look, this is what we're going for. Something like x, y, or z are workable, but a, b, and c would be too much." then I think you'd see less variation in the power level of profile submissions because people would at least have the chance to be given an explanation, rather than going in relatively blind or with only a very vague descriptor. It would help people understand what to aim for.

Which is the point; to help players more easily understand what the tournament organizers want, so that the overall process of profile submission and balancing is made easier for all parties involved.

The Thunder Tyrant


Knight Breaker

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:16 pm


All of that information is present in the Rules and Regulations posts between abilities and the restricted moves.

For weapons/abilities Street Fighter is listed for interpretation, as well as a general bit on not using OP weapons like Death Rays. All weapons have to be approved by judges.

In Restricted Abilities or whatever its called they have callouts on all the kinds of s**t you can't do. The guideline listed is a "moderate" amount of control of the elements and ki and s**t like that. Moderate is a pretty safe word to use when it comes to setting the bar, especially with that other information. It also states all moves will be reviewed by judges.


The only people having any difficulty determining power level appropriateness is going to be those that:

a) didn't read the rules
b) are trying to jam a freakishly OP character into a moderate power level tournament
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:19 pm


King Bug

b) are trying to jam a freakishly OP character into a moderate power level tournament


According to Vintrict, this is every mage ever.

Scalar Warfare

Ice-Cold Explorer

8,425 Points
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Dear Princess Molestia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:21 pm


I remember talking about power levels, including Street Fighter and Guilty Gear, in-depth, more than once.

Actually, I'm usually the only person that ever argues that people making tournaments don't know anything about the power levels of the characters they say they want to use. I always loved going into HoH and mocking how none of them never even played KoF, let alone actually paid attention to the story.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:25 pm


No, it's generally every mage that has a d12 hit dice and a bunch of Fighter feats and s**t on top of it. Mages with no appreciable weaknesses, like Death Knights. I like Death Knights, but they aren't really a good portrayal of the mage archtype. That kind of problem has been consistent across all the magey characters I've seen in tournaments.


And of course Sucking is being a b***h again. LOL

Knight Breaker


Vintrict
Captain

Omnipresent Poster

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:42 pm


Sigil Warden
King Bug

b) are trying to jam a freakishly OP character into a moderate power level tournament


According to Vintrict, this is every mage ever.

You can do a mage right. I'm just waiting for someone to enter what I expect would be the perfect kind of battle mage for this tournament, which I already have in my head. I figure people would figure it out with the way we balance stuff, but no one has caught on yet, so that's good.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:52 pm


Except that it's not, because this is still pretty vague because outside of the ban on guns, you don't really have any specifics regarding what's acceptable; if it were then we wouldn't even be having this discussion and I wouldn't have had a half-dozen or more people asking me what power level was acceptable for the tournament over MSN prior to the GTB beginning. "Moderate control over ki" doesn't mean anything because it's a relative statement, it's reliant on the person in question having the same definition of moderate as we do. We shouldn't assume that that's the case, because it's not always going to be.

Moderate for us is like.. early-middle of Yu Yu Hakusho, or being able to wreck the s**t out of a room without demolishing an entire building off-hand, right? Moderate to other players could mean "demolishing an entire city" or Nappa from Dragonball Z. When I did a lot of community hopping, a guy wanted to fight me and we were agreeing to moderate powers. When we both described what "moderate powers" meant, his definition was "being able to destroy a city block with a single prep attack." My definition was way different, obviously.

Again, it boils down to this: "If you wish to guage how powerful/how equipped your character should be for this tournament, think Street Fighter/ King of Fighters." being a very vague statement. I've yet to see an argument for why it SHOULDN'T be expanded to give people a clearer image of what the tournament organizers want in terms of acceptable power. Except "People won't read it", but that's a dumb argument because if they enter without reading it, you reject their profile like usual and point them to it.

Then again, like I said: it's all a moot point because Vintrict changes his personal definitions of what is or isn't too powerful for the tournament without ever changing that specific phrase or editing the regulations and requirements.

So you may as well enter whatever because you have no idea what the tournament's power level will actually be.

The Thunder Tyrant


The Female of the Species

Prophet

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:57 pm


I think the Indian is right. For next year we should probably work on developing that section of the rulebook.

And by we, I mean whoever the ******** the judging staff is. I might try to put down some groundwork before this year is over. We'll see.
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