I wouldn't know where to begin on making it more specific.
Powers are so ******** varied.
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:46 am
I gotta disagree. I think Street Fighter is a pretty easily understood power level. It has a bunch of different power levels in it, but the ceiling in generally well understood.
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:47 am
Powers are varied, but that's why you can give multiple examples and try to outline, more importantly the "floor" and "ceiling." What's absolutely required to actually have the expectation of winning a fight, and what's the maximum limit?
Also, I created a workable, modular system a year or two ago, but I already know Vin won't use it because I pointed him towards it when we spoke about it last time. It could probably use a bit more detail to help outline things, but I kept it as short as possible to avoid just dragging on and on. But you could lift one setting out of it (say, semi-realistic mild powers), and then go to town on expanding it to encompass exactly what YOU want out of it. Which is the point.
Dual-Scaling System
The primary difference between this scaling and the AL system is that the AL relies on a numerical value each time you move up or down in scale, and so the scale only applies in one way; magnitude of power. The idea with this system is to account for two things: Power, and realism. This allows players to more accurately determine what level they want to play at by having two separate scales that interact with one another.
In regards to the power scale, each level can effectively be further codified into "high" or "low" - "high mild" or "low mild", "low advanced" or "high advanced" to give more flexibility to the tiers when further classification is needed.
Realism Scale
Realistic
Realistic is exactly what the name implies - as parallel to the real world as possible, in terms of physics, physiology, and the like. Minimal bends in the rules of physics, accurately portrayed humans, so on and so forth.
Semi-Realistic
Semi-realistic straddles the line between purely realistic, and wholly unrealistic levels of combat. Combat will still roughly follow the real world, but the common addition of powers can more easily "bend" the rules. For example: the Shoryuken. A person can jump, spin, and punch all at the same time - not that it would necessarily be viable. But with a "nudge" of powers into the somewhat unrealistic, it can become a viable technique. A character could use powers to become stronger than normal, faster than normal, or the like, but without breaking the rules wholesale. Purely hand to hand or weapons combat would still by and large be somewhat along the lines of "movie realism", but with supernatural powers (if allowed), this can mean looser rules than in Realistic.
Unrealistic
At the level of unrealistic combat, the rules of physics are loose, at best. A character could run up the side of a building indefinitely, dodge bullets, perform astounding acrobatics in mid-combat, or otherwise do things simply beyond the ken of realistic or even semi-realistic combat. Unrealistic is more common at higher power levels, because of the fantastic levels of physical abilities that many characters possess. Punching through a solid granite block, slicing through an enormous redwood tree with a single sword swipe, punching the ground hard enough to create an enormous crater - all examples of unrealistic combat.
Power Scale No Powers
Like Realistic, this is straight forward: a character has no powers, no supernatural abilities. They are more or less a human, albeit perhaps of Olympic level ability in terms of physicality. It can also be assumed that magical weapons or armor would also be banned, as they can give spell-like abilities.
Mild Powers
Mild Powers is the next step up, and is harder to classify because you can take a higher or lower approach in terms of acceptable abilities. Characters can run the gamut from humans with powers (Naruto, Avatar, Street Fighter, D&D) to lesser demonic, angelic, or otherwise supernatural beings. At this level, a gun is fairly powerful, and might be barred from use. Essentially, a character will be balanced to have a few strong areas, and a few weak areas, as their powers and equipment are not sufficient enough to cover every possible situation or potentiality.
An example of a lower "mild powers" character could be Kyo Kusanagi, from King of Fighters. He is a hand to hand fighter without weapons or armor, but is at the peak of human physicality (and sometimes exceeds it), while he also has a fairly expansive "fire elemental" powerset which is close to mid range, and would (in roleplay) probably have a charge system reliant on chi or magical energy. Ryu from Street Fighter might also be an example. An example of a higher level "mild powers" would be if you took Kyo Kusanagi, and either expanded his powerset, gave him some mild magical items such as armor or weapons to expand his versatility, gave him a second powerset, or simply made him physically empowered beyond human limits as a permanent passive ability.
High Powers
High powers can be defined by characters who are usually physically beyond the ken of human ability by quite a considerable margin (dodging bullets, hurling cars, etc) while also having considerable supernatural abilities. An example of this might be a minor super hero: A character with advanced physical abilities several times the norm of man, super powers, and possibly some serious equipment. A lower end example might be Wolverwine: Adamantium skeleton, the ability to regenerate from practically anything, while being supernaturally powerful and potent in physical combat. He is on the lower end because, while he's pretty much impossible to kill, he's also restricted to melee. At the higher end of the spectrum, you have characters who can destroy an building with a couple of preps, or even an entire city block.
Advanced Powers
Because it's been a while since I've played at this level, the description may be somewhat lacking: Essentially, a character at this level is potent enough to pretty much drop an entire city without too much effort. Think lower scale DBZ: Nappa, for example.
Full Powers
At this level, a character can demolish a planet. Giant monstrosities, cosmic beings, so on and so forth are applicable at this level. Powers can be quite extensive, and a character may have several powersets. Freeza, Cell, and the like might fit in at this level.
Power Character
At this level, a character is able to effect things on a universal or galactic level. Hurling galaxies at each other, creating black holes, creating or destroying planes of existence, planar psionics, so on and so forth. At this level, characters will very likely bend or break the rules of physics to their whim the manipulation of time and space is not wholly uncommon. Characters are likely to have god-like powers, and psuedo-science can be common, such as the application of string theory, time travel, or the like.
EDIT:: I thought that too KB, until someone pointed out that s**t gets seriously crazy in the anime, and that, while we interpret the games as being relatively mild in power, someone else might not. That's the issue; it's not written out very clearly, what is or isn't "street fighter level" depends on whether you're looking at JUST the games, or the anime, or a number of things.
That's why a clearer explanation would be best. You could, for example, offer "example profiles" of a handful of characters. Say, four, one for each popular element (water, wind, fire, water) that are all roughly around the same level of power and say "This is roughly what we're shooting for. Aim for this, and you're likely to get in quickly."
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:56 am
I guess so.
Part of that is though, the extreme examples are unique to Street Fighter canon. Rather, the extreme examples are unique IN Street Fighter. Every world/universe/whatever has its own one-of-a-kinds that stand out. While there was that whole thing with demon Ryu or whatever that's pretty much an exception to the rule.
Another easy example to reference is something like Soul Calibur. The powers in SC and the characters' overall strength is pretty easy to interpret. There are exceptions like in SC4 that immortal demon guy or whatever, but that's just a boss or a focus on one particular story. Kind of like saying human power levels are wild and hard to determine because there's stories about this Jesus guy who could walk on water and revive people.
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:58 am
The GTB is always looking for improvement, so I will work on making the judging rubric more clear so that even little girls who watch pony shows can get it.
And the example profile will work, I guess. Like a type for each basic archetype, such as power martial artist, elementalist, normal tech person. But again, like Sokoya said, it's very hard to quantify that and people will still interpret it however they want.
I do have one way of helping people balance their stuff. It'll involve a small system of people having a certain number of points to distribute to their character, and to generally use it to buy different levels and various attributes of powers. You still have all the customization in the world, but it'll at least help showcase more what kind of balance we want here.
Something like:
You can buy a general Ki usage ability at Master level for 5 points, so doing things like shooting beams in normal as long as you list you can do it. For a certain ability, the cost increases if want the ability to be able to be used instantly with a cooldown because no-charge abilities are very valuable in a tournament of this nature. You can also gain bonus creation points (which is capped) if you put a battle significant weakness.
That's my idea I have in for it.
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:03 pm
Sounds like way too much work. You'd be better off just using an existing point-buy system.
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:04 pm
Well, Doji did mention basic D&D.
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:04 pm
A point system like that would only work in a specific setting, i.e. not freeform where powersets come from six dozen different source materials.
And that's the thing, KB. When people think Street Fighter, they think Ryu. Or Akuma.
Ain't nobody wanna be Dan, bro.
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:06 pm
Basic D&D is too outdated. It also balances s**t on things that never apply to freeform. s**t like skills are balancing factors, and skills generally don't play a role in Gaia RP.
I'll keep an eye out for a system that works though. I know there's a couple of older ones that would, but they're obscure and finding the books for them would be difficult. Not to mention as tabletop games virtually all of them rely on dice in some fashion, and including dice in Gaia RP is tedious.
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:09 pm
The Thunder Tyrant
And that's the thing, KB. When people think Street Fighter, they think Ryu. Or Akuma.
Ain't nobody wanna be Dan, bro.
Yeah. I don't really have anything against regular Ryu. As far as the Street Fighter level is concerned I think a character like Fox can fit in there and still do well. 2D fighting games have the benefit of just dodging attacks and s**t though, so the powers need to be kept in check for freeform.
I'm increasingly adhering to the "don't give a ********, make it cool" way of doing things though. KB's tech is a bit inspired from Smash Bros Ganondorf, and KB is really really strong, but I generally don't give a s**t about power levels and whatnot - just play things out.
I'm having more fun with Raphemal though. emotion_dowant
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:11 pm
I always said the Gurps system could be a very good template to go off of.
And no dice.
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:12 pm
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And that's the thing, KB. When people think Street Fighter, they think Ryu. Or Akuma.
Ain't nobody wanna be Dan, bro.
Yeah. I don't really have anything against regular Ryu. As far as the Street Fighter level is concerned I think a character like Fox can fit in there and still do well. 2D fighting games have the benefit of just dodging attacks and s**t though, so the powers need to be kept in check for freeform.
I'm increasingly adhering to the "don't give a ********, make it cool" way of doing things though. KB's tech is a bit inspired from Smash Bros Ganondorf, and KB is really really strong, but I generally don't give a s**t about power levels and whatnot - just play things out.
I'm having more fun with Raphemal though. emotion_dowant
Melee Ganon or Brawl Ganon?
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:27 pm
Actually I think I mean Melee.
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:29 pm
Yeah, cause he's great in that one. Brawl Ganon is gimped.
Since I have time again, I can start working on those sprites for the tournament!
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:32 pm
Vintrict
Well, Doji did mention basic D&D.
Yeah which is a system I am running soon next to my PF game. It really has nothing to do with Gaia outside of the possibility I decide to go with converting a character from Gaia over for the campaign (hello bottle of asprin and Gin)
I think trying to apply a dice based system to balance freeform is a terrible idea because you are balancing around different mechanics.