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Yes the Dark angles are nice but they do have a few down falls. I dislike how they all don't have stubborn anymore.

Since we are on the subject of the DA, here is something a buddy of mine posted elsewhere, and I generally agree.

10 things I like/dislike about the new Dark Angels Codex:

Likes:

1. Deathwing can finally deepstrike better than those posers, the Imperial Fists. Seriously, Captain Lysander isn’t all that old (well… he stopped aging pretty quickly when he died, but still). He wasn’t around during the Horus Heresy. So how is it that he can figure out some new tactic that’s oh-so-much better than a chapter that’s had a Standalone Terminator Company operating independently of the rest of their Legion for the better part of 10,000 years? I’m glad GW finally one upped him and killed (or tried to kill) the whole “Lysander Wing” idea before it could take off.

2. Ravenwing finally has some offensive potential that doesn’t involve taking 3 squadrons of 3 landspeeders with assault cannons and multi-meltas.

3. Shotguns are now a viable option for assault squads. While not as flashy as the extra close combat attacks, they’re actually numerically more effective now.

4. Our veterans found the zipper on their Terminator Armor finally!

5. We have a Deathwing special character.

6. Ezekiel now gives me reasons to quote Invader Zim… “Have you the BRAIN WORMS?!”

7. It’s never been cheaper to have a fully robed Dark Angel army.

8. GW found a solution to getting rid of 5 man las/plas squads

9. Dark Angels get lots of Venerable Dreadnaughts

10. We get a jetbike with a mounted plasma cannon and twin-linked stormbolters… TAKE THAT ELDAR!

Now for the dislikes:

1. Deathwing are only available in 5 man squads. Fluff-wise, that’s actually accurate (one of the few things in the Dark Angels codex that adheres to the old fluff), so I can accept that, if that were the only negative change. Unfortunately, these 5 man squads can only have one heavy weapon. Well… that’s ok. I can accept that too, since I can still remember playing Deathwing back in the day when Assault Cannons were just short ranged, high strength heavy bolters with a chance to jam. Missiles rocked back then, and missiles still rock today… and nothing says hurty like a guy with two lightning claws and a missile launcher.

2. Dark Angels went from being the chapter with the most Land Raiders to the chapter with the least. Seriously, WTF?! I own 4 Land Raiders for a reason! I could accept the above items about Deathwing squads if I could put those deathwing squads in dedicated Land Raider transports like in the fluff. I mean, fluff-wise, Deathwing always deployed as 5 man squads mounted in Land Raiders, which is why Land Raiders were part of the First Company instead of their support companies. But now, the First Company can’t even use them without taking them as heavy supports. Meanwhile, every other Space Marine chapter can?! How did we go from fielding 17 Land Raiders in a single force org to only fielding 3? That seriously does piss me off. Fluff-wise, I could’ve sooner seen them come up with a terminator specific Land Raider variant than this.

3. Our characters are now even LESS worth it than before. Before, my Dark Angels Grandmaster had to pay around 215 points to compete with basic Grey Knight Grandmasters and Greater Daemons. But now, several things have made Dark Angels grandmasters even less admirable:

3.1 Terminator Armor no longer gives the character Terminator Honors. This is a complete reversal of Dark Angel fluff. Before, *every* Dark angels character was required to have Terminator Honors, and thus, all of them had +1 attack. Now, there isn’t even a way to GIVE them Terminator Honors, yet the cost of Terminator Armor remained the same.

3.2 The Sword of Secrets is now only available to Azrael. One of the key weapons that made Grandmasters worth it was their ability to purchase a 40 point 6 strength power weapon. Now they can’t even do that.

3.3 They’re not nearly as customizable. I only have very specific choices available to my Dark Angels grandmaster. The Power Armored grandmasters still have some leeway here, but the Terminator grandmasters don’t. Oddly enough, the Power Armored grandmasters can have 2 shooting weapons AND 2 close combat weapons, but only with certain specific choices.

As a result of all of that, I’m now stuck with a fighter that has inferior weapon choices and less attacks for the same cost as other Space Marine masters. I went from having one of the best combatants of any chapter to one of the worst. Gee, thanks GW.

4. No veteran skills. I knew they were probably going away from the squads, but I am still a bit upset at the lack of Tank Hunters for my dreadnaughts… especially given the next point.
5. More Expensive Vehicles. 15 points for Extra Armor?! More Expensive base price on Dreadnaughts?! This is reeeeetarded. A Dark Angels dreadnaught with assault cannon, smoke launchers, extra armor, a heavy flamer, and a searchlight, costs 140 points as opposed to 124 points for a same-build Space Marine Dreadnaught. A Lascannon/Missile Launcher Venerable dreadnaught costs 190+ points as opposed to a Space Marine dreadnaught of the same build (WITH TANK HUNTERS, which our dreads can’t have) for only 174 points. What are we paying for? Point 6.

6. All vehicles can include a techmarine. That’s cool. The techmarine, however, cannot have Terminator armor. Hrmm… guess I shouldn’t have spent $30 converting mine from last edition when they HAD to have Terminator Armor, huh? Moreover, our techmarines are more expensive than normal techmarines, AND we’re paying a premium on top of that to be able to include them with our vehicles. So… what? Did GW get taken over by the IRS or something? Seems like we’re getting “triple taxed” for the same ability. Couldn’t they have just included ALL of the price increase on the Techmarine so we didn’t have to pay the extra points if we weren’t taking them?

7. Scouts are Elites. Great… yet another of the armies I play falls victim to composition rules. Now I have just as many troop choices as, say, Necrons, meaning I get dinged if I don’t take enough of them, and also dinged if I make them all the same. Only, seeing as how my only two squad size choices are 5 man VP bait or 10 man squads, guess what… all of my troop choices will be 10 man squads now. Well, I guess I could waste points on an entire 10 man squad to include weapons that I don’t like, while everyone else gets away with taking 3 squads of 8, 9, and 10 men and getting around the “identical squad” penalty… sure would be nice if I had that option. Meanwhile, back to the other part about scouts being elite… what makes them so elite? Cool shotguns? Ok, sure, why not. Oh wait, because I already have troop squads with bolters for that. But it’d be a bit nicer if, say, they had some sort of special “super infiltration” rule, or teleport homers, or something… you know, something that would warrant me using one of my 3 elite slots on them?

8. The new Dark Angels are designed around combined arms. Well, that’s great. Only, the whole POINT of Ravenwing and Deathwing was to fight as standalone forces. I shouldn’t need Ravenwing to make my Deathwing effective. According to GW, Dark Angels have “always” fought like this. Well… it’s like that, only completely different.

9. Grandmaster of the Deathwing is neither grand, nor a master of anything. Yet, I’m forced to take this nancy-boy of a commander if I want to field a Deathwing army now. This nancy-boy commander with a pitiful 3 attacks (low by pre-new-codex Dark Angel standards). Oh, but that’s cool, I can give him a master crafted power weapon! WOOO! Big spendin’ there! Seriously… why even put that in there? Obviously the only real choice is between the Lightning claws (so you can have 4 whole attacks), or the Thunder Hammer/storm shield. Couldn’t GW have put a bit more thought into making him something other than “Generic_Commander_001”? I mean, you’ve got the Grandmaster of the Ravenwing cruising around in either a flying land raider or a Jetbike with guns sticking out of every crevasse, you’ve got Azrael with a 6 str power weapon and a midget to carry his 4+ invulnerable save pimp hat, and you’ve got Ezekiel with the Mind Worm (have you the BRAIN WORMS?!) spell. And then… you’ve got the Grandmaster of the Deathwing. What, did they just run out of ideas?

10. They got rid of Azmodai. That makes me cry, really. Azmodai was, like, the best character ever. His fluff was awesome, he’s got a whole book about him (kinda), and they ditched him?! Maybe they should’ve made HIM the Grandmaster of the Deathwing!

Well I think I can answer the thing about the Techmarine not having termy armour. His point cost includes Artificier armor and he dosnt take up room in the force org. Also you can include one techmarine for each vehicle from the elite or heavy support section. You cant have uber ones but you can have many of them.

If they didnt give the DA draw back the codex would be a green version of the Basic marien codex. I can see where they whent with this codex vs the other marine codexes. T A C T I C S vs muahaha I play marines I win. Which in my most humble opinion makes for a better game. not just players relying on there lists to win.

Taht BS about no terminator honous is BS. Thats like not letting tau in crisis suits not have a bonding knife (I love that knife). and not letitng them use the sword if they arent Asrael sucks but they do have to make them fair. Before the angels just slaughtered me evilly everytime.

FLuff here and fluff there, I don't think they've lost out any fluff at all, they brought back some old fluff from 2nd Edition and stuff, and it's possible to play a 100% DW army, just model your techie with the termie armour and Iron halo and say it's termie armour, onoes he can't teleportbut thats uncool when he can have his personal Razorback or something else.

Also using the Master of Deathwing thingy character you get to use Termies as troops, then take lots of squads and use the new DW assult rules, I don't see any sort of bad thing about it, half of your units (rounded up) gets to deepstrike automaticly the first turn (or something like that), I don't see the DA fluff destroyed in any way at all with the new codex. ._.;;;

I mean if GW writes something down it's officially their fluff, so there's absolutely NOTHING that's "unfluffy" in the DA codex, am I not correct? D:

i cant finish my tank conversion crying my thumb doesnt hardly work crying

I might get up some WIP pictures of my pre-heresy marines.

I am dreading when teh Blood Angels get redone. I really hope they dont get rid of Mephston. It was bad enough in the errata when they stripped him of most of his good