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 Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:08 am
Jiggs has always been a joke character.
Always.
They complained about her in the first Smash, and they still complain about her now. That's why she's still in. Cause guess what? Sakurai likes to piss people like that off. (And for the record, I hate her guts too, but that doesn't mean what I'm saying isn't fully true)
And actually, Wolf's move set is completely different from that of Fox's of Falco's. They may be similar, but they are far more different than Gannondorf/Capt Falcon or Link/Toon Link (though Toon Link has more power).
....but then again, what does this have anything to do with my initial rant other than discuss character differences/similarities, O_o?
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:41 pm
Quote: ....but then again, what does this have anything to do with my initial rant other than discuss character differences/similarities, O_o? Some may not want to argue with your rant in order not to get into trouble? That or some do not want to read or cannot make a long enough post. Who says my bf was the only one. I am sure there are others out there that are the same way. Not a lot, but some. I am so confused, I thought we were talking about how certain characters just really suck and now its about how bias Sakurai made the game? Sakurai is so biased that he waits till the 3rd game to put more Kirby characters? Ok then. If he was truly biased I also think Kirby would be a hell of a lot more powerful than he is now. First off, Kirby and King Dedede are NOT that easy to handle. Hell I can't either of them that well. I have to practice a lot just to be somewhat decent. Meta Knight is, that is true. However Snake, Ike, Marth, Pit, Donkey Kong, Pikachu are a lot easier to use and nail KO's with for beginners. I do not doubt that Sakurai was at least a little biased. It is hard not to be unless you kinda train yourself not too. Sakurai created Kirby. I am surprised Kirby didn't become super ungodly or something. Quote: THAT is the Brawl Conspiracy. Sakurai made the game in his favor, and in reality, does not give a s**t about Nintendo's fanbase because he pretty much believes they are sequel-craving jerks. Well that last statement is kinda true. I mean not everyone is that way but a lot are. I am not sure its real nice to say that he doesn't care without really hearing the whole story from him first. Granted, I doubt he cares for every single person but I don't think he thinks of us all as s**t. If it was not for us then the games he made would not be bought. He has to put things into the game that we want in order for us to buy it. Though its true that he will put some of the things that he really wants in there over the fans but not too much. (ie: Pit, R.O.B, though R.O.B is a pretty important but forgotten character of sorts.) Look I know he seems a bit biased but I never thought it was to the degree that it was a problem? Why are you so upset about it? I don't know exactly what I am trying to say anymore but, you are right on some things and wrong on others. You sound really mad too. I am sorry if I pissed you off or anything. I didn't mean to do that.
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Nao-chan the Conquerer Crew
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:27 pm
*Faints over wall of text*
I was gone for far too long.
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:40 pm
YamiLover13 Quote: THAT is the Brawl Conspiracy. Sakurai made the game in his favor, and in reality, does not give a s**t about Nintendo's fanbase because he pretty much believes they are sequel-craving jerks. Well that last statement is kinda true. I mean not everyone is that way but a lot are. I am not sure its real nice to say that he doesn't care without really hearing the whole story from him first. Granted, I doubt he cares for every single person but I don't think he thinks of us all as s**t. If it was not for us then the games he made would not be bought. He has to put things into the game that we want in order for us to buy it. Though its true that he will put some of the things that he really wants in there over the fans but not too much. (ie: Pit, R.O.B, though R.O.B is a pretty important but forgotten character of sorts.) Look I know he seems a bit biased but I never thought it was to the degree that it was a problem? Why are you so upset about it? I don't know exactly what I am trying to say anymore but, you are right on some things and wrong on others. You sound really mad too. I am sorry if I pissed you off or anything. I didn't mean to do that.
Again, Sakurai laughing at them pretty much.
Say what you want, but what I'm saying is pretty much truth here. And it may be whatever with the other stuff you said, but most of the tourney-bound people I've met don't use any other characters besides those three. Do they always win? Pretty much.
There's lots of other stuff to get into about the story, music and trophies too to prove that Sakurai kind of says "******** you" to Mario and Link, but I don't really care to get into that part at the moment.
Pit was loved when he was introduced, but is now now one of the most hated characters.
The things Pit, Kirby, Dedede and Meta Knight all have in common:
Spamming.
^ This wins actual matches.
Spamming racks up the damage insanely high in a brief amount of time, so even the smallest attack can kill.
Sure some characters have powerful moves, but that compensates for the time it takes to pull such a powerful move off and how predictable it is.
It's ridiculously easy to rack up 80% damage with any of those four, in under 10 seconds. Then if you look at their stages.... After that initial 80% with Pit, just a knock and then hit the ceiling and then fall off and die instantly. That sucks.
The Combo Canon loves to piss people off, and so does Whispy Woods blowing players into the Star Stacker blocks. All which can be easily avoided by the Kirby characters since they all fly.
And no, I doubt he thinks everyone is s**t. But the fact of the matter is is that it's only been about 5 years since he left Nintendo. I'd assume he's still rather miffed at them, so what else to do?
I know he listened to some of the fans, that's why Sonic got in. But I think he was pulling people's legs in some areas too. He's not a bad person, no way. He's my idol, and I'd so want to meet him over Miyamoto.
So let's put it in an analogy (that is a shitty one): If you were dating someone for over a decade and finally broke up with them after they started to strain and get you upset, wouldn't you still be a little miffed to see them after 3 years? (That's when the game actually started to be made)
I think I would.
(Then again, I'd wonder why I was dating someone for a decade...
....or dating in general....)
As well, as a last tidbit. I don't think even if Brawl was the worst game ever would people care. Melee was the best seller for Gamecube, so that pretty much proves right there that you had a bunch of dedicated fans to buy it like hotcakes for the first few months anyways, make it player's choice, and the price drops with a few more attracted to the lower price coming in to buy it.
So Sakurai had full range to do whatever he wanted, because: The game would have sold no matter what.
Sure, it would damper future spin-offs and sequels, but for sure it would have sold.
I'm pretty much just still going at it because I like the heat of debate, and I apologize if you're supremely pissed off right now. This is all help for me at least, as I plan to write a full document on everything about Brawl and stuff like this.
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Nao-chan the Conquerer Crew
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:04 pm
I see. So Sakurai messed with Brawl?
Kenta, I don't think your oppinion is enough to piss anyone here off. It's obvious that Nomad would have beaten you to it if it were possible to piss people here off that easily.
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:42 pm
Nao-chan the Conquerer I see. So Sakurai messed with Brawl?
Kenta, I don't think your oppinion is enough to piss anyone here off. It's obvious that Nomad would have beaten you to it if it were possible to piss people here off that easily.
....Kirby characters should have always been better than that fat plumber (says me). So I see it as a major improvement, =D. And making Fox a fairly bad character was good too, shut up a bunch of tourney jerks.
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Nao-chan the Conquerer Crew
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:40 pm
Personally, though, now that I go back to look, I wish Marth had been left alone. He seems... Suck-ish in Brawl.
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:46 pm
I can't reply to everything you said. I have too much to do and I have argued about Brawl for long enough with others. I get tired of it.
Lots were mad about R.O.B till they realized just how important he was. Supposedly he helped save the NES.
Wait now you are happy about it being rigged? I am so confused!
I also forgot what else I was going to say....
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Nao-chan the Conquerer Crew
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:52 pm
YamiLover13 Wait now you are happy about it being rigged? I am so confused!
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:06 pm
Hey there everyone, new member, and first time posting on this guild. 3nodding
Anywho, my oppinion may not matter much, but I believe that no characters are better then others in Smash brothers. I believe some characters are better 'equiped' to take on other characters, and I believe some characters are not very good in certain stages, but all in all, they're about equally good in skill and power. In my oppinion, the skill of the player is what weighs the most when determining how good a character is, not so much the character himself. As far as Sakurai developing his characters better then the rest, I don't personally believe he did, but then again, it's just my oppinion. sweatdrop
And once again hello everyone. 3nodding
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:49 pm
YamiLover13 I can't reply to everything you said. I have too much to do and I have argued about Brawl for long enough with others. I get tired of it. Lots were mad about R.O.B till they realized just how important he was. Supposedly he helped save the NES. Wait now you are happy about it being rigged? I am so confused! I also forgot what else I was going to say....
The fact of the matter is that a lot of people, tourney-jerks and non, have complained about many aspects of Brawl. And pretty much all of their complaints I've been able to link back to my hypothesis, and thus, the Conspiracy.
I'm a Kirby fan, god damnit. If the Kirby characters are the ******** s**t, then I don't want to play any other game that has them as not the ******** s**t.
*Word*
As for R.O.B.....
.....I never heard that story. Mainly because R.O.B. and the NES were released at the same time. Famicom was 1984 and NES was 1985. R.O.B. also coming out in the year of 1985, and with other such games using other interesting controller aspects (Duck Hunt), there was a deluxe NES kit that you could get in the year of 1985. It had the NES, two controllers, the lightgun, R.O.B. and I think a game or two (probably the Super Mario/Duck Hunt double feature).
So as for that: Since the NES continued until 1991, and R.O.B. appeared and died off early in the system's lifespan, I highly doubt he had anything to do with saving the system.
In fact, I don't really see what there was to be saved. With the decline of the home console systems during the time, the NES became the stand-alone on the market, and with arcade hits like Donkey Kong and Mario Brothers created by Nintendo, there's no reason that it would have done initially poor.
....people stopped complaining (for the most part, some people still think he's a waste of a slot) because R.O.B.'s attack set was good, and somewhat cheap. (He has probably the third or second best recovery in the game)
=)
Hi newbie.
.....you need to read the whole thing before ambiguous statements like that are said.
For one thing, I ******** hate the idea of tiers. I think it's stupid. But that doesn't mean they didn't exist. I pretty much ignored them in Melee because the only two characters I enjoyed playing (Kirby and Ness) were considered, 'Low-Tier', which is a load of B.S., as it does depend on the player and what-not.
What I'm stating is a biased system. It's essentially the same thing AS tiers, but rather than just being better for unknown circumstances, the reasoning is Sakurai's personal bias.
And as it goes with tiers: Skill level does apply. But Brawl took off the "High learning curve" that Melee apparently had (so say the Tourney-Jerks), and thus, the difficulty and skill needed to play is evened out.
Therefore: There aren't that many levels of skill needed to play. That being said, the biased/tier thing then takes top reign. Since Brawl is easier to master than it's predecessor, playing as characters that can spam damage and finish off rather than having to mess around with a crappy character are picked by the more advanced players.
Is it because they are harder to master and the advanced players can take hold of this?
Not really. The hard to master characters are the ones that flat-out suck. And they do exist. Saying that all the characters are created evenly is pretty much a complete blind look at the game. ...and then this gets into repetition of what I've been talking about.
It's nice to have that mind-set though, just don't complain if someone who isn't that good beats the crap out of you when s/he is playing as Kirby and you're playing as your best character.
(That happened to my tourney-playing friend quite a few times, he got pissed off)
....
....can videogame history be made into a class that I can teach, D=? I'd finally have an idea for a job, XD
(Not that this has anything to do with videogame history)
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:11 pm
Thank you for the welcome! 3nodding
Truely enough said, I agree with many, multiple things that you've said, except a few really.
In my oppinion, I believe that characters are as hard as you make them. Depending on ones play styles some characters are easy to learn, while others are quite difficult. My girlfriend for example has almost mastered playing with 'Meta-Knight' and because of this really, I've almost mastered playing with 'Kirby', though I liked him to begin with. When switched around, she's rather bad with 'Kirby', and for me 'Meta-Knight' is far to chaotic for me to control. I also hear that a lot of people find that 'Ike, Marth, and Link' are easy to learn, and require little skill. I personally have a horrible time trying to master them, I find 'Link' far to optional, and on the occasion I have trouble deciding what I should do in the situation, since there are lots of options. And with 'Ike and Marth'... To be honest, I don't know why I have so much trouble with them, maybe it's the short attack range, and limit of special moves. The characters I am good with are 'Mario, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, and Kirby' I will have fun and play with all characters, but I'm quite 'good' with those three.
To wrap up I believe that characters are as hard, or as easy to learn, as the playing style of the player himself, I don't believe there are any 'hard' characters to master, unless the player himself/herself has trouble learning them.
(Sorry for just jumping in btw, my GF has been reading the posts and keeping me updated through some of this. sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:32 pm
...so...GF...BF....wait, uhh....?
I'll pretty much give you that segment, and not go at it, as it's your opinion. Whether or not what I'm dictating is opinion or fact is up in the air (we'd have to ask Sakurai himself, but given facts, I still slightly favor my theories over the more non-aggressive ones).
Though I do say that, if the player has any prior Smash Bros. experience, and therefore, knows what the hell is going on, they'll notice the actual beefing or de-beefing of the characters. (Which is why I keep kicking Mario in the a**. I played with him a bit in Melee, and he was the s**t. Now he sucks in comparison) And as it is, that is what the majority is complaining about. I'm just trying to give them logical, though at the same time, cynical, reasoning as to what has happened in the seven years between the two titles. Which, hopefully answers their questions of "why is so and so cheap?", "why does so and so suck now?" and other such things. I'm glad that you and your GF (who I'm thinking is....) aren't at that level of complaints, and enjoying the game. There's (At a more nerdy level I guess) a lot of complaints about the game elsewhere though, and that's where the basis of the Conspiracy started off.
I also am a bit irritated with some of Nintendo's recent doings, and as such, I'm pretty much trying to talk about the "Conspiracy" in regards to the fact that Masahiro Sakurai was a great person when working with Nintendo (Not that he isn't now, hahahaha, but I think you know what I mean), and how his probably last game for them is his own personal satire of the company that he got frustrated with and left.
In a sense, the main reason I want people to at least notice the majority of my arguments is for the pure purpose that it goes back to Sakurai's ideals that sequels shouldn't always be needed. Thus stating, though he is always going to work his hardest to make a quality game, he would mess with this certain one as to tell the company: "Get off your asses and think of something amazing and new, not just pleasing the old (and safe)."
Which, Nintendo has done.
....slightly.
They still have a long ways to go, in my book, before they fulfill the ideals that Sakurai noted at when he departed. And I personally say that the fact Brawl was so over-advertised and what not, shows that Nintendo doesn't have full confidence in making good stand-alone titles like it should be doing. The Wii has the power for extremely unique games. Rather than finding a way to put Mario on it, they should be looking at the system and finding something to fit it.
That all being said, the main goal pretty much is to let people know of Sakurai, of sequel-ization, and to get them to notice the other things that can be done. The fact that the game (and quite a few others) is usually played by people using Gamecube controllers is pretty much proof that Nintendo hasn't thought of anything supremely creative yet, even if they have the most creative system of the Seventh Generation of Home Consoles. True that Sakurai decided that factor on his own, but he had not been part of the company for a while so he was unfamiliar with the hardware, and as well, it can be easily stated that the implementation of the GCN Controller was also a little jolt at Nintendo, "You made this unique and great system, yet the game that will sell the most won't even use any of the unique aspects. That's a pity, but it's hard to put a sequel onto a system that could use an original title."
....and I have no idea where I went with that, but I hope you get the general idea. ^(~^_^~)>
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:54 pm
WAAAAY too much to read! gonk
Oh hi! *waves* You know there is something called a intro topic....
Miroku there (Damn that is sounding bad. How about I send you the money to change your name.) is my boyfriend. That's what he meant by GF. Sorry about that. sweatdrop (Also, no its not a boyfriend and girlfriend net thing. I know him in real life.)
Ok...well I heard that after the fall of game systems, no one in America was so keen on the idea of buying the NES. So they promoted R.O.B and said, "We will sell you this cool robot that comes with a game system." Then people bought it and that saved the NES. OR at least that is what I heard. Frankly I have never heard of that till Brawl came out.
People are mad at Brawl because it is not Melee. People hate changes like that evidently. :/
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:04 pm
*To Hisho no... Something...*
I suppose, and i agree with you once again on multiple things, though many things you said were historical NES information, cool stuff really.
Yet again, my opinions must seep out onto the page. I don't believe that characters stink more now, then they ever did in Melee version, the characters that were in Melee are equally as good as they used to be before, and then some. The thing is that more characters have been added to the line-up, some of which people find playing with easier then the old characters, meaning that there are better line-ups for them then there used to be.
To sum up, I don't think any characters are better or worse then they used to be, I just believe people found the new characters to fit their playing styles more then before. And of course since it's on a new system, it's opened up to a lot more experienced players then before.
*To Yamilover*
That's very interesting, I never, ever knew about that. It makes sense though, when something won't sell, wave something free to go along with it, and people come flocking.
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