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Ok, before i get to ranting, I feel the need to explain my title (excuse and bad spelling, I've got a 101.7 fever, so i cant exactly focus too well on what i'm doing) In my home, we have a rule about milk: If you need another person to smell it, just throw it out. Now be honest, who really wants to smell their milk and get a wiff of something horrable. A similar thing applies to mary sues/cliches. Nobody wants to test their own character and face the fact that it SUCKS! So they get other people to tell them. Now, the only differance between that and milk is nobody will say "well, it's a bit off, but if you just sprayed some air freshener around, you wouldn't really be able to smell it" they are going to say "DUDE, THAT MILK SMELLS LIKE a**!", where with a mary sue, people tend to sugar coat it with sugestions that probobly wont work. If the plot revolves about her being an OMGTEHMAJIK princess named Hixaru Rosa Uki takahashi the fair with eight wolves (one for every color of the rainbow) a perfect figure, a huge chest, perfect grades and a billion princes looking to marry her who angsts over her brother who nobally died in war, Changing her name, the color of her wolves, and giving her some small flaws probobly wont help. Now, if somebody said that you milk smelled like a mule's a** (hehe...mule...a**...a mule is an a**..) and tells you to toss it out, you arent going to call them an evil person and threten to kill yourself. Yet i've said to a few people "your character is really suish, you might want to just scrap them" and they've thretened to report me for trolling.

Now, spraying air freshened isn't going to make your milk not smell like a**, its just going to make the room not smell like the milk that smells like a**. Likewise, giving your character a few stupid flaws (a smell scar, a white stripe in her hair related to her OMGTRAJIK past, the inability to make a good blueberry muffin) will not make her good. Infact, sometimes its the way you wright a character that maker him/her suck. Their is a differance between "waving, smooth locks the color of the noonday sun" and "bleach blond hair". But even changing some wording will usually not redeme a sue. Again, changing a sue usually means scrapping young Hixaru Rosa Uki takahashi and basically replacing her.

So before you ask somebody to smell your milk (or give an opinion of what you fear may be a suckish plot/character) sniff the milk yoursell (or use a magic thing called a mary sue litmus test/honestly review yourself as if you were reviewing the work of your worst enimy/rival) it'll be easier to face the fact that the milk smells like a**/your character sucks.
To stretch the analogy further:

Bad milk is bad for you. It makes you sick.
Bad Sue is bad for your story. It makes your story sick.
Risu the Troll
To stretch the analogy further:

Bad milk is bad for you. It makes you sick.
Bad Sue is bad for your story. It makes your story sick.
true that (icon_homedog)

Codger

There's only one problem with the Sue litmus tests: They don't work. Your character has to be the most boring, every day individual possible to get a passing score. None of my characters could truly be considered Sue's or Stu's, yet none of them (except for most of the characters in my erotica) pass any of those tests. Why? Because these characters are outside of the "norm" for the world they live in, and every Sue/Stu, by their very nature, exists outside of the "norm".

So while a character litmus test may reveal the worst of your characterization offenses, it will not tell you if your character actually is a Sue/Stu. That is dependant upon context and how the character is portrayed.
Endrael
There's only one problem with the Sue litmus tests: They don't work. Your character has to be the most boring, every day individual possible to get a passing score. None of my characters could truly be considered Sue's or Stu's, yet none of them (except for most of the characters in my erotica) pass any of those tests. Why? Because these characters are outside of the "norm" for the world they live in, and every Sue/Stu, by their very nature, exists outside of the "norm".

So while a character litmus test may reveal the worst of your characterization offenses, it will not tell you if your character actually is a Sue/Stu. That is dependant upon context and how the character is portrayed.
yes, that is a very good point, although they do give a desent round answere. I've had pleant of characters that got a very low score, and yet people who read my story constantly commented on how wonderful and easy to relate to they were.
Endrael
There's only one problem with the Sue litmus tests: They don't work. Your character has to be the most boring, every day individual possible to get a passing score. None of my characters could truly be considered Sue's or Stu's, yet none of them (except for most of the characters in my erotica) pass any of those tests. Why? Because these characters are outside of the "norm" for the world they live in, and every Sue/Stu, by their very nature, exists outside of the "norm".

So while a character litmus test may reveal the worst of your characterization offenses, it will not tell you if your character actually is a Sue/Stu. That is dependant upon context and how the character is portrayed.


That's funny. Most of my characters pass the tests with flying colors, and you know how ridiculous mine are. >.>

I can see that most of the sueness is on portrayal, though. It's all about portrayal.
Ah ha ha! That is an awesome analogy.

The world is conspiring to make me happy today.
Miss Eighty-Six
Ah ha ha! That is an awesome analogy.

The world is conspiring to make me happy today.
biggrin lol. I actually got the idea when i found a 3 month old cup of my baby sister's milk under my couch.
Uh-oh, I hope this isn't about my topic asking for help ._.; I wasn't trying to be rude about anything.

Though people who spazz out like that need to stop writing; I've had my fair share of encounters with people who only asked for help because they expected to be told they were perfect...which they weren't, and they really did not want to hear that.
DrasianaX
Uh-oh, I hope this isn't about my topic asking for help ._.; I wasn't trying to be rude about anything.

Though people who spazz out like that need to stop writing; I've had my fair share of encounters with people who only asked for help because they expected to be told they were perfect...which they weren't, and they really did not want to hear that.
well, not yours in particular, but there were a billion threads exactly like yours, and frankly i just got tired of it.

Codger

x_haphazard_x
Endrael
There's only one problem with the Sue litmus tests: They don't work. Your character has to be the most boring, every day individual possible to get a passing score. None of my characters could truly be considered Sue's or Stu's, yet none of them (except for most of the characters in my erotica) pass any of those tests. Why? Because these characters are outside of the "norm" for the world they live in, and every Sue/Stu, by their very nature, exists outside of the "norm".

So while a character litmus test may reveal the worst of your characterization offenses, it will not tell you if your character actually is a Sue/Stu. That is dependant upon context and how the character is portrayed.


That's funny. Most of my characters pass the tests with flying colors, and you know how ridiculous mine are. >.>

I can see that most of the sueness is on portrayal, though. It's all about portrayal.

I have professional hackers (with cybernetic enhancements, and who hire themselves out as industrial espionage mercenaries), exiled elves, twins who are the descendants of experiments done on normal humans by dragons, a mage who annihilates an entire race to achieve god hood (not that there were many of that race left...), a man who was abducted by a mega-corporation and forced into being trained as a mage (and who was later abducted again by "demons" and "brainwashed" so they could use him as their messiah), and a woman just sufficiently clever enough with magic to bind herself to artifacts based on the magical techniques of now dead gods and which drive the user mad.

Now tell me honestly that these characters wouldn't be considered Sue's or Stu's. wink
Endrael
x_haphazard_x
Endrael
There's only one problem with the Sue litmus tests: They don't work. Your character has to be the most boring, every day individual possible to get a passing score. None of my characters could truly be considered Sue's or Stu's, yet none of them (except for most of the characters in my erotica) pass any of those tests. Why? Because these characters are outside of the "norm" for the world they live in, and every Sue/Stu, by their very nature, exists outside of the "norm".

So while a character litmus test may reveal the worst of your characterization offenses, it will not tell you if your character actually is a Sue/Stu. That is dependant upon context and how the character is portrayed.


That's funny. Most of my characters pass the tests with flying colors, and you know how ridiculous mine are. >.>

I can see that most of the sueness is on portrayal, though. It's all about portrayal.

I have professional hackers (with cybernetic enhancements, and who hire themselves out as industrial espionage mercenaries), exiled elves, twins who are the descendants of experiments done on normal humans by dragons, a mage who annihilates an entire race to achieve god hood (not that there were many of that race left...), a man who was abducted by a mega-corporation and forced into being trained as a mage (and who was later abducted again by "demons" and "brainwashed" so they could use him as their messiah), and a woman just sufficiently clever enough with magic to bind herself to artifacts based on the magical techniques of now dead gods and which drive the user mad.

Now tell me honestly that these characters wouldn't be considered Sue's or Stu's. wink


The difference is that all these characters don't have destinies, aren't immediately described as beautiful, and etc., but have gotten to their places by their own merit.

Although I do have a character who's essentially the MacGuyver of magic, a girl who's the fifth generation in an experiment to create supersoldiers, a diplomatic exorcist who's somehow picked up the ability to tell what belongs to who, a guy who's been contacted by God through his cell phone to make people obey the 3rd commandment, and an Evil Overlord, plain and simple.

I could very easily make them Mary-Sues, sure, but I didn't.

Codger

x_haphazard_x
Endrael
x_haphazard_x
Endrael
There's only one problem with the Sue litmus tests: They don't work. Your character has to be the most boring, every day individual possible to get a passing score. None of my characters could truly be considered Sue's or Stu's, yet none of them (except for most of the characters in my erotica) pass any of those tests. Why? Because these characters are outside of the "norm" for the world they live in, and every Sue/Stu, by their very nature, exists outside of the "norm".

So while a character litmus test may reveal the worst of your characterization offenses, it will not tell you if your character actually is a Sue/Stu. That is dependant upon context and how the character is portrayed.


That's funny. Most of my characters pass the tests with flying colors, and you know how ridiculous mine are. >.>

I can see that most of the sueness is on portrayal, though. It's all about portrayal.

I have professional hackers (with cybernetic enhancements, and who hire themselves out as industrial espionage mercenaries), exiled elves, twins who are the descendants of experiments done on normal humans by dragons, a mage who annihilates an entire race to achieve god hood (not that there were many of that race left...), a man who was abducted by a mega-corporation and forced into being trained as a mage (and who was later abducted again by "demons" and "brainwashed" so they could use him as their messiah), and a woman just sufficiently clever enough with magic to bind herself to artifacts based on the magical techniques of now dead gods and which drive the user mad.

Now tell me honestly that these characters wouldn't be considered Sue's or Stu's. wink


The difference is that all these characters don't have destinies, aren't immediately described as beautiful, and etc., but have gotten to their places by their own merit.

Although I do have a character who's essentially the MacGuyver of magic, a girl who's the fifth generation in an experiment to create supersoldiers, a diplomatic exorcist who's somehow picked up the ability to tell what belongs to who, a guy who's been contacted by God through his cell phone to make people obey the 3rd commandment, and an Evil Overlord, plain and simple.

I could very easily make them Mary-Sues, sure, but I didn't.

Aye, but the Sue/Stu tests all say they're Sue's/Stu's.

And we're hijacking the thread. sweatdrop
Endrael

Aye, but the Sue/Stu tests all say they're Sue's/Stu's.

And we're hijacking the thread. sweatdrop


Hijacking? Let's take this thing to Vegas, baby, and not give a ******** about who tries to stop us!

Oh, wait, this is a thread...

I guess I'll back out, then.
Uh, before I start on this, if you're so sick, why are you on the internet? And why wasn't it possible to run your post through a spell check before you posted it, especially when you knew you were going to be making mistakes? Why didn't you save this for a better day? neutral

You're completely excluding the paranoid here, by the way. You know, the people who write well but are still scared of making bad characters because of all the fuss about Mary-Sues. They exist. The litmus tests can make this even worse, since as Endrael already said, they're not a good gauge. Some characters who score in the negative numbers are godawful and the ones that the test claims are "irredeemable Sues" are great. Some of us don't have thick skin and start doubting our abilities when the magic litmus test tells us we're sucky writers and should just scrap the characters now. Even when we're really not. I've known a few who were good writers but got stuck in ruts because of too harsh of criticism, or even, yes, what the litmus tests said. Now you might be thinking they were just too weak-minded and thin-skinned, but there's really only so much you can take.

Quote:
Their is a differance between "waving, smooth locks the color of the noonday sun" and "bleach blond hair"


This depends on the narrator of the story, or which character the narrator is following. If he's infatuated with her, or she's beautiful, or she's special in some way, you probably won't be getting "bleach blonde hair". It just doesn't sound fantastic enough. And at least when I hear someone's hair being described like that, I get an image of poorly dyed or frizzy light blonde, and it's ugly. Sometimes descriptions like that are called for. Sometimes they're not. It depends on a million little things, like the current tone, what's happening in the scene, the characters involved, etc.

Not everyone who is pretty or talented or royalty or has animal familiars is a Mary-Sue either. You can be the combination of all those four things and still not be, for individual traits does not a Sue make.

Quote:
Now, if somebody said that you milk smelled like a mule's a** (hehe...mule...a**...a mule is an a**..) and tells you to toss it out, you arent going to call them an evil person and threten to kill yourself.


You also didn't put your heart and soul into that milk. It's different when you take time and effort into creating and someone comes along to tell you that it sucks.

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