Veganinsm

[CrysisMoon]

I've been watching things unfold in this thread for a few days now, and have just skimmed through the massive walls of text, which have trigged some real strange reactions from my laptop screen, like it's having a seizure or something. So I finally decided I'd try and post something, all the while keeping my cool.

Here's how I feel about vegans and the whole veganism movement; All in all the whole thing is actually pretty decent. I'm all for trying to educate people on how to better the planet, as for now its the only one we have, so we need to stop ******** s**t up. I don't really mind vegans all that much so long as they don't pull the 'holier than thou' s**t with me. I think it's great that people what they can by removing meat and animal by-products from their diet and lifestyle in general. Good for you! Keep doing what you do. Just don't go and try to force you're ideals on me. Because that's going to backfire real quick.

If we could completely bring factory farming and the destruction of our ecosystems to an end, I'd be incredibly relieved. I'm sure eventually we will, but lets look at a major issue. The honey bee is quickly dying off, because of the use of pesticides, and pesticide laced seeds. (I know there's a name for it, I just can't remember it at this very moment). If the bee goes completely extinct , everyone is completely ********. I mean, humans, plants, and animals. I think right now our first priority is to stop the use of pesticides and insecticide's. There are a number of home remedies you can use to deter problematic insects.

A step up would be if everyone had their own home gardens. But not everyone can do that, simply based off of where they live. Like major northern countries.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, I want to cover a few things on the vegan diet. Yes, I'm going there. Do some people do incredibly well on it? Of course! It has it's benefits when done properly, especially for those with meat allergies. But do I think it's for everyone? No, I honestly don't. Because I don't think it's something everyone can benefit from. Everyone's body has different needs, absorbs nutrients differently, lives in different climates (which can make a massive impact on dietary needs).

I've been eating meat for as long as I can remember, and to be completely honest, I don't think I would do well on a vegan diet. Although I think I could do well on the paleo lifestyle. I love animals, and I'm not so keen on the whole slaughterhouse factory farming scenario, so when I do live on my own, and can afford to, I'm going to be buying my meat from local farms, and look into the possibility of hunting. The ladder is more likely if I move up north for work. Living a vegan life style in northern Canada, we don't get much sun up there, we're talking 6-8 months in total darkness, and fairly cold to extreme cold which makes growing things a little more difficult. So they usually have to fly in a lot of the fruits and veggies from farther south, which makes it extremely expensive to buy. It's just not logical to me. But hey of it's something you can afford and do properly, by all means go for it.

And now I've completely lost my train of thought...Lovely. So I guess what I'm trying to say, is I don't have a problem with the vegan lifestyle, so long as no one tries to force it on me. Like I said, the reaction that follows won't be pretty. I get you all mean well, but some of you just need to chill. Everyone has different views for different reasons. Just because it works for one group of people, doesn't mean it'll work for another.


Edit: I remember the other thought I wanted to point out. PETS! I work as a veterinary assistant, and I'm going back to school be become a registered veterinary technician, I wanted to point out a few things about our furry, four-legged children. If you want you're pet to be a vegan lifestyle like yourself, please, please get an animal that is a herbivore. Dogs, they can get away with being on a vegetarian diet, but we usually only recommend those diets, kind of as a last resort when treating food sensitivities/allergies and diseases. Though raw/home cooked diets are always an option when dealing with food and health issues. Though I'm still on the fence about it, because it can be better than kibble when done properly. Even though dogs are considered 'omnivores', I would never suggest they be fed vegan diets. Cats on the other hand are obligate carnivores, meaning if they aren't benign fed a carnivore based diet, they will become incredibly sick, and potentially die. Cat's need taurine, and they're bodies can't synthesize it. It comes from they food they eat. Not to mention cats are incredibly picky eaters. But feeding them anything but an carnivore diet can also lead to kidney and liver issues, something cats are majorly prone to. If you've ever looked inside a cats mouth, you'd notice the very sharp pointed teeth they have, and that they don't have a single level surfaced tooth. Some animals just aren't meant to be vegan, and it's something, some people have a hard time dealing with. If you want a vegan pet, get a rabbit or a bird.

[VeganAtheistNurse]

Fallen-Pottery-Angel

Here's how I feel about vegans and the whole veganism movement; All in all the whole thing is actually pretty decent. I'm all for trying to educate people on how to better the planet, as for now its the only one we have, so we need to stop ******** s**t up.

Ok great, a point we can both agree on. biggrin

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I don't really mind vegans all that much so long as they don't pull the 'holier than thou' s**t with me. I think it's great that people what they can by removing meat and animal by-products from their diet and lifestyle in general. Good for you! Keep doing what you do. Just don't go and try to force you're ideals on me. Because that's going to backfire real quick.

I made the statement that my actions were more moral than one who decides to eat animal byproducts or use use products tested on animals/have animal products in them, when there is an available option that does not, as a general rule. The whole of some one being moral is not based on diet and the products you use alone. Lets assume Joseph Stalin was a vegan (he wasn’t, but the idea behind this thought experiment will be clear). Now Stalin did some terrible s**t. And you want to know something, I would say that you would be more moral than the vegan version of Stalin. So other things taken into context, if we have two people who in all other ways are the same, except one is a vegan, and the other eats both meat and other animal products, I would have to say that the vegan is more moral. I have said before, you can not care if you are moral, and care only that you are following the law. I have also pointed out that laws are not moral edicts. So on that front, I would like to take your passive aggressive threat. How is an action that is not necessary due to there being an alternative option that causes less harm equally moral to the action that causes less harm, when the option that causes less harm is available?

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If we could completely bring factory farming and the destruction of our ecosystems to an end, I'd be incredibly relieved. I'm sure eventually we will

Great, a good way to do this is through spending your money on products that don’t do the things you want being done. That is how vegans do their thing. They purchase products that they agree with. They care about what is in their products and the means that they take to get there. Sorry to interrupt, allow me to let you finish…

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but lets look at a major issue. The honey bee is quickly dying off, because of the use of pesticides, and pesticide laced seeds. (I know there's a name for it, I just can't remember it at this very moment). If the bee goes completely extinct , everyone is completely ********. I mean, humans, plants, and animals. I think right now our first priority is to stop the use of pesticides and insecticide's. There are a number of home remedies you can use to deter problematic insects.

The honey bee is a huge issue. You can buy organic fruits and vegetables that do not use that pesticide, or you can support GMO crops because they don’t seem to have any effect on killing off bees. All of these things are vegan, and things that vegans care about. Vegans do advocate for this, just it is not the top priority. The mass slaughter of animals, or the slaughter of animals at all is the top priority for most vegans. What you are saying is like saying, “What you should really care about are the gypsies that were killed during the holocaust, they were just a disenfranchised group whose culture was near extinction!” Well yeah, people care about that issue too. No one is saying that the only people who were killed during the holocaust who mattered were Jewish people. Just the Jewish population was killed off far more frequently and to a greater percent. It isn’t like vegans only care about meat eating. We care about the harm committed to any sentient being.

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A step up would be if everyone had their own home gardens. But not everyone can do that, simply based off of where they live. Like major northern countries.

I love this idea, and agree with it so much that I actually do this. Nothing better than having fresh onions and carrots for my rice. Also I have been trying to get a pomegranate tree going, along with some ghost peppers. I also support my local farmers markets, which are probably the best places to get your vegetables, and boy are they a ******** ton cheaper than grocery stores.

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Now, I want to cover a few things on the vegan diet. Yes, I'm going there. Do some people do incredibly well on it? Of course! It has it's benefits when done properly, especially for those with meat allergies. But do I think it's for everyone? No, I honestly don't. Because I don't think it's something everyone can benefit from. Everyone's body has different needs, absorbs nutrients differently, lives in different climates (which can make a massive impact on dietary needs).

For some people, their body will need time to adjust to the diet. After eating foods with certain nutritional densities of particular nutrients you body adapts to that intake. My girlfriend had this happen to her, but what I suggested is that she keep eating right, but also take a vegan multivitamin to help her body get those nutrients through the adapting phase. After about a month, she got better with it and now she is fine. So you saying that it is not for everyone, well that is just silly. It is hard for some people, and for others, like myself, I was able to do it that day and never looked back. Now the only people who couldn’t do it at this time, are those who do not have access to the supplies to do so. These are very rare corner cases and you would be hard pressed to find people who could use that excuse in industrialized counties. For the different climates you are right, they have different needs. We know what they are, so they can plan a vegan diet accordingly. I would suggest that if someone is having an issue with transitioning, and wants to keep going, to consult an nutritionist who is willing to work with you toward your goals.

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I've been eating meat for as long as I can remember, and to be completely honest, I don't think I would do well on a vegan diet.

What makes you think that? How did you arrive at this decision? Is it mainly that you wouldn’t enjoy not consuming flesh? I mean when I wasn’t vegan, I LOVED the taste of meat. At that time I had not been convinced that veganism was a logical position to hold, due to always hearing poorly formed arguments for it. Once I was presented with a logical argument that I could not refute, I had no choice but to accept it.

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I love animals, and I'm not so keen on the whole slaughterhouse factory farming scenario, so when I do live on my own, and can afford to, I'm going to be buying my meat from local farms, and look into the possibility of hunting. The ladder is more likely if I move up north for work.

Do you eat all things that you love? I mean I love my girlfriend and I sure will eat her out on occasion, but that isn’t the same thing. I don’t see how you can kill something unnecessarily and still say you love it. Hunting is also even worse. Like even my hunter friend and his really really conservative dad said that hunting does not benefit anyone but themselves, but they like tradition. (this also goes to show you that I don’t hate meat eaters, in fact I love many many non-vegans, so please don’t think that I hate you because you eat meat. So far I just don’t find your arguments very convincing.)

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Living a vegan life style in northern Canada, we don't get much sun up there, we're talking 6-8 months in total darkness, and fairly cold to extreme cold which makes growing things a little more difficult. So they usually have to fly in a lot of the fruits and veggies from farther south, which makes it extremely expensive to buy. It's just not logical to me. But hey of it's something you can afford and do properly, by all means go for it.

The expense of a more moral alternative does not make the thing that is the immoral alternative now moral. I don’t know about Canadian policy much, but I know in the states, meat and other animal products are heavily subsidized, and are also that way in other industrialized countries. This artificially deflates the price of those options and can make it so they are not as expensive as they would be in a free market. It is only not logical if you don’t care about the morality of your actions. If all you care about is the legality of your actions, then by all means, keep doing what you are doing.

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Edit: I remember the other thought I wanted to point out. PETS! I work as a veterinary assistant, and I'm going back to school be become a registered veterinary technician.

Congratulations, keep doing what you are doing, I am sure you will reach your goal soon.

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I wanted to point out a few things about our furry, four-legged children. If you want you're pet to be a vegan lifestyle like yourself, please, please get an animal that is a herbivore. Dogs, they can get away with being on a vegetarian diet, but we usually only recommend those diets, kind of as a last resort when treating food sensitivities/allergies and diseases. Though raw/home cooked diets are always an option when dealing with food and health issues. Though I'm still on the fence about it, because it can be better than kibble when done properly. Even though dogs are considered 'omnivores', I would never suggest they be fed vegan diets.

There is pet food out there that is vegan and approved to be nutritious. I will also point out that every time that this topic comes up I do try to stress that it needs to be properly planned and that a trained professional needs to be consulted with. You should never just take the advice of the person who works at your local pet store, even if they are the stores “expert”. This care will also likely be far more expensive. So my thing would be that if you can’t take care of a dog properly, then don’t try to at all. My girlfriend and I do plan to at some point rescue a pug. This time will only come when we have the financial stability and time. We recognize the time and devotion that should be put into this, and want to do things the right way. In the mean time, we do plan on rescuing many bunnies from shelters and provide them with the best life we can. I would like to again reiterate that a vegan diet for a dog can be done, but it is not easy and take a lot of time and devotion. I personally would feel that that time would be worth it, and when I have it, I do plan on doing it.

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Cats on the other hand are obligate carnivores, meaning if they aren't benign fed a carnivore based diet, they will become incredibly sick, and potentially die. Cat's need taurine, and they're bodies can't synthesize it. It comes from they food they eat. Not to mention cats are incredibly picky eaters. But feeding them anything but an carnivore diet can also lead to kidney and liver issues, something cats are majorly prone to. If you've ever looked inside a cats mouth, you'd notice the very sharp pointed teeth they have, and that they don't have a single level surfaced tooth. Some animals just aren't meant to be vegan, and it's something, some people have a hard time dealing with. If you want a vegan pet, get a rabbit or a bird.

I have also said many times in this thread that cats are obligate carnivores. I don’t know of anyone who said other wise (if they had and I saw it I would have called them on it.)

I would just add to the end of that last sentence, and if you have the time and financial stability, a dog.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[User 37295391]

tl;dr you think that people who are vegan are overall better people as opposed to meat eaters?


well hey at least ur not like freelee the banana girl who thinks that us meat eaters would eat road kill

[Nen Echui]

gaia_angelleft I'm vegan~! gaia_angelright

[VeganAtheistNurse]

alexis ozlem

tl;dr you think that people who are vegan are overall better people as opposed to meat eaters?


well hey at least ur not like freelee the banana girl who thinks that us meat eaters would eat road kill

Wrong. I said no such thing ever in a serious manner. I have been known to, when the topic is up and jokes are being made about it, quote Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Specifically the vegan in the movie. This is meant to be light hearted, and intelligent people who are able to decipher context are able to figure that out, and many people have. But, if a specific someone is not able to do so, I could see how that misunderstanding could happen, and the fallacious arguments would follow.

I would say that if both people are the same other than one is a vegan and the other is not, the vegan is more moral. If you choose not to value morality and choose to value something else, then you are free to do so. If you do value morality, then I would say that vegans are more moral, and if that is the only thing you value, then they would be better. But that is not how value judgements are made. We don't take into account on variable and exclude all others. If your main goal is to be more of something else, like lawful, then by all means pursue that goal.

I have never, and will never said that I am better than someone based only on the fact that I am a vegan and they are not a vegan. I would have to take into account many other variables. I don't just care about morality, I only value it higher in priority than other variables (such as lawfulness).

That is the problem with saying tl;dr. You don't really get to see what my arguments are, and you miss out on gaining an understanding that you previously didn't have. I know it is a lot to read, but you should actually read before you make assumptions next time. 3nodding

I think Freelee and her boyfriend are bad for other reasons. I personally don't care if she thinks that, because eating meat is eating meat to me. As of this point it all is caused by inducing suffering. She is bad because she is like the vegan in Scott Pilgrim. She and her boyfriend think that they are better than anyone who isn't a fruitarian. And yes, I used the word better here, because they have said things like that and not satirically or as a joke, like as an insult. So yeah. At least we can agree on Freelee and her boyfriend being influences.

[VeganAtheistNurse]

Princess Sumiko

gaia_angelleft I'm vegan~! gaia_angelright

That is great! So how long have you been a vegan, and what caused your to become one? If you don't mind me asking that is.

[Nen Echui]

VeganAtheistNurse

Princess Sumiko

gaia_angelleft I'm vegan~! gaia_angelright

That is great! So how long have you been a vegan, and what caused your to become one? If you don't mind me asking that is.

gaia_angelleft Even when I was a small child I did not like the taste nor look of meat, I also did not like anything like milk or cheese or eggs. I've been an accidental vegan most of my life and only in the last couple years did I really learn that there was a name for this way of eating and that, in addition to sparing the animals, it is also excellent for our health and absolutely needed in order to preserve balance and prosperity on our planet. gaia_angelright

[VeganAtheistNurse]

Princess Sumiko

VeganAtheistNurse

Princess Sumiko

gaia_angelleft I'm vegan~! gaia_angelright

That is great! So how long have you been a vegan, and what caused your to become one? If you don't mind me asking that is.

gaia_angelleft Even when I was a small child I did not like the taste nor look of meat, I also did not like anything like milk or cheese or eggs. I've been an accidental vegan most of my life and only in the last couple years did I really learn that there was a name for this way of eating and that, in addition to sparing the animals, it is also excellent for our health and absolutely needed in order to preserve balance and prosperity on our planet. gaia_angelright

I would agree that a well planned vegan diet is very very healthy. I also do agree with the environment part. My girlfriend is actually doing her senior thesis on that very issue. 4laugh

[Nen Echui]

VeganAtheistNurse

Princess Sumiko

VeganAtheistNurse

Princess Sumiko

gaia_angelleft I'm vegan~! gaia_angelright

That is great! So how long have you been a vegan, and what caused your to become one? If you don't mind me asking that is.

gaia_angelleft Even when I was a small child I did not like the taste nor look of meat, I also did not like anything like milk or cheese or eggs. I've been an accidental vegan most of my life and only in the last couple years did I really learn that there was a name for this way of eating and that, in addition to sparing the animals, it is also excellent for our health and absolutely needed in order to preserve balance and prosperity on our planet. gaia_angelright

I would agree that a well planned vegan diet is very very healthy. I also do agree with the environment part. My girlfriend is actually doing her senior thesis on that very issue. 4laugh

gaia_angelleft I trust that, in time, more and more people will come to embrace this peaceful and compassionate way of living. We need not fight those who sleep, but be there to help them when they awake. gaia_angelright

[User 37295391]

VeganAtheistNurse

alexis ozlem

tl;dr you think that people who are vegan are overall better people as opposed to meat eaters?


well hey at least ur not like freelee the banana girl who thinks that us meat eaters would eat road kill

Wrong. I said no such thing ever in a serious manner. I have been known to, when the topic is up and jokes are being made about it, quote Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Specifically the vegan in the movie. This is meant to be light hearted, and intelligent people who are able to decipher context are able to figure that out, and many people have. But, if a specific someone is not able to do so, I could see how that misunderstanding could happen, and the fallacious arguments would follow.

I would say that if both people are the same other than one is a vegan and the other is not, the vegan is more moral. If you choose not to value morality and choose to value something else, then you are free to do so. If you do value morality, then I would say that vegans are more moral, and if that is the only thing you value, then they would be better. But that is not how value judgements are made. We don't take into account on variable and exclude all others. If your main goal is to be more of something else, like lawful, then by all means pursue that goal.

I have never, and will never said that I am better than someone based only on the fact that I am a vegan and they are not a vegan. I would have to take into account many other variables. I don't just care about morality, I only value it higher in priority than other variables (such as lawfulness).

That is the problem with saying tl;dr. You don't really get to see what my arguments are, and you miss out on gaining an understanding that you previously didn't have. I know it is a lot to read, but you should actually read before you make assumptions next time. 3nodding

I think Freelee and her boyfriend are bad for other reasons. I personally don't care if she thinks that, because eating meat is eating meat to me. As of this point it all is caused by inducing suffering. She is bad because she is like the vegan in Scott Pilgrim. She and her boyfriend think that they are better than anyone who isn't a fruitarian. And yes, I used the word better here, because they have said things like that and not satirically or as a joke, like as an insult. So yeah. At least we can agree on Freelee and her boyfriend being influences.

Hmm... Okay, it looks like I respect you a bit more. But I still think that you're a bit self-righteous. Either way, high five for not bashing out at me. Although, I don't think you should even bring up morals since it also depends on where you get your meat/eggs/milk from. I eat everything although I'm trying to eat a bit vegetarian and eat not as much meat/processed foods. (Sorry if my grammar is bad, English is my second language.) But I live in Turkey, and my mom buys everything from farmers who are very merciful and are organic/no hormones, etc. and everythings natural and such. Although most of the stuff you get from the market are usually from farmers who are merciless and do basically what you would see in the documentary Earthlings. I don't know what it would be called, though.

[VeganAtheistNurse]

alexis ozlem

VeganAtheistNurse

alexis ozlem

tl;dr you think that people who are vegan are overall better people as opposed to meat eaters?


well hey at least ur not like freelee the banana girl who thinks that us meat eaters would eat road kill

Wrong. I said no such thing ever in a serious manner. I have been known to, when the topic is up and jokes are being made about it, quote Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Specifically the vegan in the movie. This is meant to be light hearted, and intelligent people who are able to decipher context are able to figure that out, and many people have. But, if a specific someone is not able to do so, I could see how that misunderstanding could happen, and the fallacious arguments would follow.

I would say that if both people are the same other than one is a vegan and the other is not, the vegan is more moral. If you choose not to value morality and choose to value something else, then you are free to do so. If you do value morality, then I would say that vegans are more moral, and if that is the only thing you value, then they would be better. But that is not how value judgements are made. We don't take into account on variable and exclude all others. If your main goal is to be more of something else, like lawful, then by all means pursue that goal.

I have never, and will never said that I am better than someone based only on the fact that I am a vegan and they are not a vegan. I would have to take into account many other variables. I don't just care about morality, I only value it higher in priority than other variables (such as lawfulness).

That is the problem with saying tl;dr. You don't really get to see what my arguments are, and you miss out on gaining an understanding that you previously didn't have. I know it is a lot to read, but you should actually read before you make assumptions next time. 3nodding

I think Freelee and her boyfriend are bad for other reasons. I personally don't care if she thinks that, because eating meat is eating meat to me. As of this point it all is caused by inducing suffering. She is bad because she is like the vegan in Scott Pilgrim. She and her boyfriend think that they are better than anyone who isn't a fruitarian. And yes, I used the word better here, because they have said things like that and not satirically or as a joke, like as an insult. So yeah. At least we can agree on Freelee and her boyfriend being influences.

Hmm... Okay, it looks like I respect you a bit more. But I still think that you're a bit self-righteous. Either way, high five for not bashing out at me. Although, I don't think you should even bring up morals since it also depends on where you get your meat/eggs/milk from. I eat everything although I'm trying to eat a bit vegetarian and eat not as much meat/processed foods. (Sorry if my grammar is bad, English is my second language.) But I live in Turkey, and my mom buys everything from farmers who are very merciful and are organic/no hormones, etc. and everythings natural and such. Although most of the stuff you get from the market are usually from farmers who are merciless and do basically what you would see in the documentary Earthlings. I don't know what it would be called, though.

First thing that I want you to know, the only time I will bash your grammar in this thread is if I do not understand what you are trying to say. Since I understand what you are trying to say I have no reason to get nit picky and would rather address the points you are making.

How does it matter where you get your milk, eggs, or meat from? I can't think of a way for you to get consent from the animal to do any of the things that would be required for you to get those things from it. Milk, even from what I would assume is an ideal situation in your eyes is still taking something from another being without its consent. Same thing with eggs, and actually, what you would call the ideal situation for eggs is actually worse than the ideal one for milk. With eggs you are taking the chickens eggs, and when they see that the nest is empty they produce more, which puts a strain on their body to constantly produce more and more eggs. And the worst of them all is meat. I can't even think of a situation in which you could say that killing an animal to eat it is moral. I mean I know that you could say that you somehow tranquilize it and then kill it. But would you do that to a human. The point is, if you wouldn't do it to a human then you don't do it to an animal. Unless you can give a reason that is justifiable for being discriminatory and also justifies exploiting or causing harm to something that can feel things subjectively.

I don't know how you could have merciful killing of animals for food. I do think that if the animal is suffering from something that is causing it a lot of pain, and there is nothing we can do to cure it or stop the pain, then, just like a human, I would be ok with killing it to end its suffering. This animal likely had a disease of some sort, so I don't know why you would want to eat it, and I still don't think that it would be ethical to do so.

I know that Turkey is a Muslim country. I know Halal is a ritual slaughter that is not ethical at all. I understand that the people there may think it is ethical because a deity they think exists without sufficient evidence told them it was the ethical way to do it. But that argument only holds up if we accept that the deity that they believe in exists. As you might have guessed, I do not. And for someone to say that their moral system is better, they would need to justify it, and if you base it off of the dictates of a deity, then you would need to justify why accepting that deity exists is rational. This is also not the place for us to debate the existence of a deity or deities. There are many threads in this sub-forum that you could discuss this topic with, or you can feel free to private message me if you feel compelled enough to discuss that topic. Slaughtering an animal is not moral.

Obviously we cannot be perfectly moral, but we can do things that would be more moral than other things, and we can avoid doing things that are immoral if possible. See, moral oughts need to also be cans. I can't tell you that you ought to do something if you cannot do it. Like I can't say, "You ought to jump over a building." That doesn't make any sense and would not be possible, so it would be unreasonable to require you to do that. But if you are able to do it then I can say that it is an ought. You are able to defend why it isn't one, but remember, when it comes to morality, saying that it isn't moral because you don't want to do it isn't a valid reason. There are ***** and rapists out there that don't want to stop doing those things. Does that mean that we shouldn't try to make them stop?

So, if I seem a bit self righteous it is not because I am trying to say I am better than you. I am showing you that I don't think that there is a justifiable reason to consume animal products given the fact that we know they cause harm. Like I have said, if the only difference between us is that I am vegan, and you are not vegan, then I would be more moral. This is not saying I am better than you. I am just saying that if you care about morality I would urge you to think about these things more, and consider being vegan.

Also, no one is saying that you or everyone should become vegan over night. Just because I did, doesn't mean that is possible for everyone to do. Many many people need to do it slowly. Moving towards vegetarian, with a goal of vegan would be optimal, and I would say that it is great that, from what it sounds like, you are trying to go vegetarian? I am not sure. Also, can you explain what you mean by that. Vegetarian means like a many different things. Some eat fish, some eat eggs, some eat dairy, and some eat all three or a combination of them.

[VeganAtheistNurse]

Princess Sumiko

VeganAtheistNurse

Princess Sumiko

VeganAtheistNurse

Princess Sumiko

gaia_angelleft I'm vegan~! gaia_angelright

That is great! So how long have you been a vegan, and what caused your to become one? If you don't mind me asking that is.

gaia_angelleft Even when I was a small child I did not like the taste nor look of meat, I also did not like anything like milk or cheese or eggs. I've been an accidental vegan most of my life and only in the last couple years did I really learn that there was a name for this way of eating and that, in addition to sparing the animals, it is also excellent for our health and absolutely needed in order to preserve balance and prosperity on our planet. gaia_angelright

I would agree that a well planned vegan diet is very very healthy. I also do agree with the environment part. My girlfriend is actually doing her senior thesis on that very issue. 4laugh

gaia_angelleft I trust that, in time, more and more people will come to embrace this peaceful and compassionate way of living. We need not fight those who sleep, but be there to help them when they awake. gaia_angelright

I would like to think that this thread would help in some way. I try to be nice to people in here, but some people don't like the language I use, even though it is not meant to be offensive, and more used to correctly describe actions that I am interpreting. Thank you so much for sharing. Feel free to share your thoughts with other people in the thread if you desire. smile

[User 37295391]

VeganAtheistNurse

alexis ozlem

VeganAtheistNurse

alexis ozlem

tl;dr you think that people who are vegan are overall better people as opposed to meat eaters?


well hey at least ur not like freelee the banana girl who thinks that us meat eaters would eat road kill

Wrong. I said no such thing ever in a serious manner. I have been known to, when the topic is up and jokes are being made about it, quote Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Specifically the vegan in the movie. This is meant to be light hearted, and intelligent people who are able to decipher context are able to figure that out, and many people have. But, if a specific someone is not able to do so, I could see how that misunderstanding could happen, and the fallacious arguments would follow.

I would say that if both people are the same other than one is a vegan and the other is not, the vegan is more moral. If you choose not to value morality and choose to value something else, then you are free to do so. If you do value morality, then I would say that vegans are more moral, and if that is the only thing you value, then they would be better. But that is not how value judgements are made. We don't take into account on variable and exclude all others. If your main goal is to be more of something else, like lawful, then by all means pursue that goal.

I have never, and will never said that I am better than someone based only on the fact that I am a vegan and they are not a vegan. I would have to take into account many other variables. I don't just care about morality, I only value it higher in priority than other variables (such as lawfulness).

That is the problem with saying tl;dr. You don't really get to see what my arguments are, and you miss out on gaining an understanding that you previously didn't have. I know it is a lot to read, but you should actually read before you make assumptions next time. 3nodding

I think Freelee and her boyfriend are bad for other reasons. I personally don't care if she thinks that, because eating meat is eating meat to me. As of this point it all is caused by inducing suffering. She is bad because she is like the vegan in Scott Pilgrim. She and her boyfriend think that they are better than anyone who isn't a fruitarian. And yes, I used the word better here, because they have said things like that and not satirically or as a joke, like as an insult. So yeah. At least we can agree on Freelee and her boyfriend being influences.

Hmm... Okay, it looks like I respect you a bit more. But I still think that you're a bit self-righteous. Either way, high five for not bashing out at me. Although, I don't think you should even bring up morals since it also depends on where you get your meat/eggs/milk from. I eat everything although I'm trying to eat a bit vegetarian and eat not as much meat/processed foods. (Sorry if my grammar is bad, English is my second language.) But I live in Turkey, and my mom buys everything from farmers who are very merciful and are organic/no hormones, etc. and everythings natural and such. Although most of the stuff you get from the market are usually from farmers who are merciless and do basically what you would see in the documentary Earthlings. I don't know what it would be called, though.

First thing that I want you to know, the only time I will bash your grammar in this thread is if I do not understand what you are trying to say. Since I understand what you are trying to say I have no reason to get nit picky and would rather address the points you are making.

How does it matter where you get your milk, eggs, or meat from? I can't think of a way for you to get consent from the animal to do any of the things that would be required for you to get those things from it. Milk, even from what I would assume is an ideal situation in your eyes is still taking something from another being without its consent. Same thing with eggs, and actually, what you would call the ideal situation for eggs is actually worse than the ideal one for milk. With eggs you are taking the chickens eggs, and when they see that the nest is empty they produce more, which puts a strain on their body to constantly produce more and more eggs. And the worst of them all is meat. I can't even think of a situation in which you could say that killing an animal to eat it is moral. I mean I know that you could say that you somehow tranquilize it and then kill it. But would you do that to a human. The point is, if you wouldn't do it to a human then you don't do it to an animal. Unless you can give a reason that is justifiable for being discriminatory and also justifies exploiting or causing harm to something that can feel things subjectively.

I don't know how you could have merciful killing of animals for food. I do think that if the animal is suffering from something that is causing it a lot of pain, and there is nothing we can do to cure it or stop the pain, then, just like a human, I would be ok with killing it to end its suffering. This animal likely had a disease of some sort, so I don't know why you would want to eat it, and I still don't think that it would be ethical to do so.

I know that Turkey is a Muslim country. I know Halal is a ritual slaughter that is not ethical at all. I understand that the people there may think it is ethical because a deity they think exists without sufficient evidence told them it was the ethical way to do it. But that argument only holds up if we accept that the deity that they believe in exists. As you might have guessed, I do not. And for someone to say that their moral system is better, they would need to justify it, and if you base it off of the dictates of a deity, then you would need to justify why accepting that deity exists is rational. This is also not the place for us to debate the existence of a deity or deities. There are many threads in this sub-forum that you could discuss this topic with, or you can feel free to private message me if you feel compelled enough to discuss that topic. Slaughtering an animal is not moral.

Obviously we cannot be perfectly moral, but we can do things that would be more moral than other things, and we can avoid doing things that are immoral if possible. See, moral oughts need to also be cans. I can't tell you that you ought to do something if you cannot do it. Like I can't say, "You ought to jump over a building." That doesn't make any sense and would not be possible, so it would be unreasonable to require you to do that. But if you are able to do it then I can say that it is an ought. You are able to defend why it isn't one, but remember, when it comes to morality, saying that it isn't moral because you don't want to do it isn't a valid reason. There are ***** and rapists out there that don't want to stop doing those things. Does that mean that we shouldn't try to make them stop?

So, if I seem a bit self righteous it is not because I am trying to say I am better than you. I am showing you that I don't think that there is a justifiable reason to consume animal products given the fact that we know they cause harm. Like I have said, if the only difference between us is that I am vegan, and you are not vegan, then I would be more moral. This is not saying I am better than you. I am just saying that if you care about morality I would urge you to think about these things more, and consider being vegan.

Also, no one is saying that you or everyone should become vegan over night. Just because I did, doesn't mean that is possible for everyone to do. Many many people need to do it slowly. Moving towards vegetarian, with a goal of vegan would be optimal, and I would say that it is great that, from what it sounds like, you are trying to go vegetarian? I am not sure. Also, can you explain what you mean by that. Vegetarian means like a many different things. Some eat fish, some eat eggs, some eat dairy, and some eat all three or a combination of them.

Meaning I will drink soy milk, eat only chicken (and fish since my mom forces me), and fruits and vegetables. I find it pointless to continue speaking with you, but you remind me of a Jehovah's Witness. I stopped reading the fourth paragraph, I hated what you wrote. I'm an atheist, and you shouldn't use your opinion to call a religion immoral. Its what millions of people believe in. I am not 'compelled' enough to speak with you about being muslim since not every muslim slaughters animals. My family doesn't. No one in my area does it.
edit: What you're saying about muslims, "I understand that the people there may think it is ethical because a deity they think exists without sufficient evidence told them it was the ethical way to do it," thats like saying God doesn't exist because there isn't any evidence. I'm an Atheist myself but I honestly don't think that you should be saying stuff like that because you don't believe in it? I don't know.

[VeganAtheistNurse]

alexis ozlem

VeganAtheistNurse

alexis ozlem

VeganAtheistNurse

alexis ozlem

tl;dr you think that people who are vegan are overall better people as opposed to meat eaters?


well hey at least ur not like freelee the banana girl who thinks that us meat eaters would eat road kill

Wrong. I said no such thing ever in a serious manner. I have been known to, when the topic is up and jokes are being made about it, quote Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Specifically the vegan in the movie. This is meant to be light hearted, and intelligent people who are able to decipher context are able to figure that out, and many people have. But, if a specific someone is not able to do so, I could see how that misunderstanding could happen, and the fallacious arguments would follow.

I would say that if both people are the same other than one is a vegan and the other is not, the vegan is more moral. If you choose not to value morality and choose to value something else, then you are free to do so. If you do value morality, then I would say that vegans are more moral, and if that is the only thing you value, then they would be better. But that is not how value judgements are made. We don't take into account on variable and exclude all others. If your main goal is to be more of something else, like lawful, then by all means pursue that goal.

I have never, and will never said that I am better than someone based only on the fact that I am a vegan and they are not a vegan. I would have to take into account many other variables. I don't just care about morality, I only value it higher in priority than other variables (such as lawfulness).

That is the problem with saying tl;dr. You don't really get to see what my arguments are, and you miss out on gaining an understanding that you previously didn't have. I know it is a lot to read, but you should actually read before you make assumptions next time. 3nodding

I think Freelee and her boyfriend are bad for other reasons. I personally don't care if she thinks that, because eating meat is eating meat to me. As of this point it all is caused by inducing suffering. She is bad because she is like the vegan in Scott Pilgrim. She and her boyfriend think that they are better than anyone who isn't a fruitarian. And yes, I used the word better here, because they have said things like that and not satirically or as a joke, like as an insult. So yeah. At least we can agree on Freelee and her boyfriend being influences.

Hmm... Okay, it looks like I respect you a bit more. But I still think that you're a bit self-righteous. Either way, high five for not bashing out at me. Although, I don't think you should even bring up morals since it also depends on where you get your meat/eggs/milk from. I eat everything although I'm trying to eat a bit vegetarian and eat not as much meat/processed foods. (Sorry if my grammar is bad, English is my second language.) But I live in Turkey, and my mom buys everything from farmers who are very merciful and are organic/no hormones, etc. and everythings natural and such. Although most of the stuff you get from the market are usually from farmers who are merciless and do basically what you would see in the documentary Earthlings. I don't know what it would be called, though.

First thing that I want you to know, the only time I will bash your grammar in this thread is if I do not understand what you are trying to say. Since I understand what you are trying to say I have no reason to get nit picky and would rather address the points you are making.

How does it matter where you get your milk, eggs, or meat from? I can't think of a way for you to get consent from the animal to do any of the things that would be required for you to get those things from it. Milk, even from what I would assume is an ideal situation in your eyes is still taking something from another being without its consent. Same thing with eggs, and actually, what you would call the ideal situation for eggs is actually worse than the ideal one for milk. With eggs you are taking the chickens eggs, and when they see that the nest is empty they produce more, which puts a strain on their body to constantly produce more and more eggs. And the worst of them all is meat. I can't even think of a situation in which you could say that killing an animal to eat it is moral. I mean I know that you could say that you somehow tranquilize it and then kill it. But would you do that to a human. The point is, if you wouldn't do it to a human then you don't do it to an animal. Unless you can give a reason that is justifiable for being discriminatory and also justifies exploiting or causing harm to something that can feel things subjectively.

I don't know how you could have merciful killing of animals for food. I do think that if the animal is suffering from something that is causing it a lot of pain, and there is nothing we can do to cure it or stop the pain, then, just like a human, I would be ok with killing it to end its suffering. This animal likely had a disease of some sort, so I don't know why you would want to eat it, and I still don't think that it would be ethical to do so.

I know that Turkey is a Muslim country. I know Halal is a ritual slaughter that is not ethical at all. I understand that the people there may think it is ethical because a deity they think exists without sufficient evidence told them it was the ethical way to do it. But that argument only holds up if we accept that the deity that they believe in exists. As you might have guessed, I do not. And for someone to say that their moral system is better, they would need to justify it, and if you base it off of the dictates of a deity, then you would need to justify why accepting that deity exists is rational. This is also not the place for us to debate the existence of a deity or deities. There are many threads in this sub-forum that you could discuss this topic with, or you can feel free to private message me if you feel compelled enough to discuss that topic. Slaughtering an animal is not moral.

Obviously we cannot be perfectly moral, but we can do things that would be more moral than other things, and we can avoid doing things that are immoral if possible. See, moral oughts need to also be cans. I can't tell you that you ought to do something if you cannot do it. Like I can't say, "You ought to jump over a building." That doesn't make any sense and would not be possible, so it would be unreasonable to require you to do that. But if you are able to do it then I can say that it is an ought. You are able to defend why it isn't one, but remember, when it comes to morality, saying that it isn't moral because you don't want to do it isn't a valid reason. There are ***** and rapists out there that don't want to stop doing those things. Does that mean that we shouldn't try to make them stop?

So, if I seem a bit self righteous it is not because I am trying to say I am better than you. I am showing you that I don't think that there is a justifiable reason to consume animal products given the fact that we know they cause harm. Like I have said, if the only difference between us is that I am vegan, and you are not vegan, then I would be more moral. This is not saying I am better than you. I am just saying that if you care about morality I would urge you to think about these things more, and consider being vegan.

Also, no one is saying that you or everyone should become vegan over night. Just because I did, doesn't mean that is possible for everyone to do. Many many people need to do it slowly. Moving towards vegetarian, with a goal of vegan would be optimal, and I would say that it is great that, from what it sounds like, you are trying to go vegetarian? I am not sure. Also, can you explain what you mean by that. Vegetarian means like a many different things. Some eat fish, some eat eggs, some eat dairy, and some eat all three or a combination of them.

Meaning I will drink soy milk, eat only chicken (and fish since my mom forces me), and fruits and vegetables. I find it pointless to continue speaking with you, but you remind me of a Jehovah's Witness. I stopped reading the fourth paragraph, I hated what you wrote. I'm an atheist, and you shouldn't use your opinion to call a religion immoral. Its what millions of people believe in. I am not 'compelled' enough to speak with you about being muslim since not every muslim slaughters animals. My family doesn't. No one in my area does it.
edit: What you're saying about muslims, "I understand that the people there may think it is ethical because a deity they think exists without sufficient evidence told them it was the ethical way to do it," thats like saying God doesn't exist because there isn't any evidence. I'm an Atheist myself but I honestly don't think that you should be saying stuff like that because you don't believe in it? I don't know.

I think that you are not understanding my posts, potentially because of a potential language barrier, as you have stated that english is not your first language. This is not your fault or mine, just the nature of conversing with people who don't fully understand the complex language that is english (kudos to you for knowing a second language, I barely know my first one lol).

I did not come to your house and knock on your door and start preaching to you. You came to my thread and you asked a question. I tried to explain it the best way that I could. I don't go up to people and force them to come into this thread and talk about it. I say that if you want to talk about it, please come do so in this thread. You came here and chose to post things. I didn't come to your thread and start talking about it. So I am not sure how I am like a Jehovah's Witness. It would be like if I went to a christian church and complained that all they did was talk about their god and preached the teachings of their holy book. Whenever I talk about it outside of this thread, it is because the other person brings it up, unless I am trying to be silly and just say, "Thats not vegan," or I will talk about vegan forms of foods to people who are talking about food. In those conversations i don't try to tell people to go vegan. Which is also not preaching.

I didn't say religion is immoral. I said that a religious justification is not sufficient if you cannot justify that the deity/deities of the religion that dictate the morality exists. Religious people can be moral, but it would not be as a result of their religion. The fact that people believe something means nothing. What matters is if you can justify it. I am not saying no gods exist. I am saying there is not enough evidence to justify belief in a god. The two are not the same thing. So justifying an action on something that you believe, but can not justify the existence of the thing that causes you be believe that is not something I respect. I don't care how many people believe it. If you can't justify it, then why should I respect it? Would you respect someone who said that they hate women because of their religion said to do so? What if thousands of people followed that? Would that make the moral justification for hating women stronger? I for one would not think that a religious justification for hating women would be sufficient unless you could prove multiple things (existence, he/she/it is how it is accurately described in the religious texts, that he/she/it really dictated those things, and the justifications for them.).

I also never said that every Muslim slaughters. You see, I know that not every person needs to slaughter animals to eat meat. I know that you can eat meat without you personally killing an animal. You are supporting animal abuse.

Practicing Muslims are known to eat things that are Halal slaughter, which is a form of ritual sacrifice. Since a large majority of your country is Muslim, I would expect that to be very common practice over there. I don't know if it is, and I also know that not every Muslim will find it necessary to consume things only if they are slaughter in a way that is halal (not sure if that is the right way to phrase that), just as not every jewish person keeps kosher, but I would expect that many places in Israel to do things in a kosher way.

Sorry that you don't like what I am saying, but I don't think that it is unreasonable to require people to justify their beliefs if they want to say that it is moral. If they want to say that there actions are "faithful to their religious beliefs." then I have no reason to question them. But, if we want to talk about creating the best possible moral system that we can make, then one would need to justify why we should adopt a moral system. This thread is me attempting to do that while also discussing other things related to veganism if the topic arises, but mainly veganism and the morality of it.

[shadow22cat]

I have no problem with vegans, as long as they don't push it on me. Both my parent and I have had bad experiences with them, though. I know some people take up the vegan diet for specific health reasons (had a friend who seemed allergic to everything, but this helped her). I know some just like it. I don't particularly like the ones who are very gung ho with the 'moral' or political side. Hate to say it, but it seems very hypocritical to me...Anything we eat was living at some point. Even if you just ate things like clay and salt, there were microbes living on them. Plants have been shown to feel some form of pain, they breathe, eat, communicate with each other, and can even bleed. To me, it's almost worse eating them, because they can't move. I am definitely for better treatment of animals, though. Only eating enough to have a balanced diet with plant products is best. We're made to be omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores. I do care deeply about every form of life, but we do have to survive.