"There is no God!" "Like hell there isn't!&qu

[blackeyedsloth]

I don't fully understand the need to know whether or not there's a god, or multiple gods, or devils, demons, angels, ghosts, fairies, monsters, a boogie man. It's all the same to me. We spend so much time trying to figure out what's out there, that we miss out on what's going on right in front of us. And inside of us.

It kind makes me feel like humanity hasn't quite grown up yet. Like we're little kids, still dwelling on whether or not Santa is real. And whether it’s bad or not to speak our doubts. Of course there are those that have always yelled at the top of there lungs "THERE IS NO SANTA" and there always will be. But what's realistic is more along the lines of "who cares, all I know is I got presents this year."


Does anyone have a legitimate reason why we shouldn't have grown out of that yet? I mean... who needs all their energy going into something so completely irrelevant.

[chaoticpuppet]

Pyschological need to determine the infinite.

[blackeyedsloth]

chaoticpuppet

Pyschological need to determine the infinite.

But don't you think people would eventually realize that there's no way of knowing, so why bother?

[QuantumMechanic]

I don't think it's a need to determine the infinite more of a way to reassure ourselves that we're not alone, that we have a purpose, that we were made for a reason, and even if we were alone in our lives sombody loves. And so we invent deities to make ourselves feel better. Although in case there is a big G-man waiting somewhere I'm not gonna blaspheme anything...

[Ablazed]

What, pray tell, do you think the solution would be? You compare this "debate" to Santa. Being that Santa does not really exist, this is already a loaded argument.

I believe in God. In fact, I know He is real. That makes anyone who does not believe in God absolutely incorrect. Like it or not, that is exactly how I feel. And I shall not hesitate to attempt to persuade people that my God is real, simply because I do believe they are wrong, and they are going to suffer for their incorrect beliefs. That's no good, and I do what I can do about it. Especially since my religion commands me to do so.

If someone told me that I was a man, I would be swift to correct them (and actually, highly disturbed). This is the same sort of thing. Sort of a form of correction.

[Natas Ferret]

Ablazed

. . . That makes anyone who does not believe in God absolutely incorrect. Like it or not, that is exactly how I feel. And I shall not hesitate to attempt to persuade people that my God is real, simply because I do believe they are wrong, and they are going to suffer for their incorrect beliefs. That's no good, and I do what I can do about it. Especially since my religion commands me to do so . . .

I think that is the point, though.
So as to avoid all sorts of conflict, everyone could just keep their mouths shut about their deities. Then we could all go about with our personal beliefs, and unless prompted during a conversation, could remain silent on the matter.
Which, I believe, would lead to less conflict of interest in general.

[melancholy_night]

We have not grown out of it yet because we are indeed, still a race of children.

[Tarrou]

Ablazed

I believe in God. In fact, I know He is real. That makes anyone who does not believe in God absolutely incorrect. Like it or not, that is exactly how I feel. And I shall not hesitate to attempt to persuade people that my God is real, simply because I do believe they are wrong, and they are going to suffer for their incorrect beliefs. That's no good, and I do what I can do about it. Especially since my religion commands me to do so.

Do remember the subjectivity of that, though. Belief is personal. There are more than a few people of different faith than yourself who believe the same thing about your fate in the afterlife as you do about theirs. Who's to say who is right? Objectively, no-one. It's a very personal thing. It's not fair to say that those who disagree with you are wrong. They're wrong whithin the dictates of your beliefs, which are by no means axiomatic. You believe that I or Natas is wrong, but that does not guarantee that this is so.

[Ablazed]

Natas Ferret

I think that is the point, though.
So as to avoid all sorts of conflict, everyone could just keep their mouths shut about their deities. Then we could all go about with our personal beliefs, and unless prompted during a conversation, could remain silent on the matter.
Which, I believe, would lead to less conflict of interest in general.

Except for the fact that this very real God commands me to speak about Him. Why? Because, well, He's real and people ought to know the truth. There is one, solid truth, and mine is it. I mean honestly, back to the scenario if someone told me I was a man... Well, am I supposed to just keep my mouth shut and allow them to have their own personal belief? This would be a path of least conflict? I'm certainly not going to remain silent about such a thing, and as I said, should be quick to correct them.

The whole goal of Christianity is to reach as many people as possible. We certainly aren't forcing converts, nor are we interfering with personal beliefs. We're just trying to point out that any personal beliefs that conflict with ours are incorrect.

On some level I can see where you are coming from, of course. I just absolutely can't agree with it. And I certainly don't see how following the commands of God makes us childish in nature.

[Natas Ferret]

Ablazed

. . .On some level I can see where you are coming from, of course. I just absolutely can't agree with it. . .

Which is fine, but don't forget that, as Blue already covered, many others believe the same thing about their faith.
Which would defintely lead to much conflict.
And, though I see your idea behind the whole being called a man thing, it doesn't quite apply, in general, to faith.
Seeing as faith generally goes beyond the realm of our standard perception, so it is a little harder to discren than, say, whether or not someone has two hands, or one.

[Ablazed]

Tangled Up In Blue

Do remember the subjectivity of that, though. Belief is personal. There are more than a few people of different faith than yourself who believe the same thing about your fate in the afterlife as you do about theirs. Who's to say who is right? Objectively, no-one. It's a very personal thing. It's not fair to say that those who disagree with you are wrong. They're wrong whithin the dictates of your beliefs, which are by no means axiomatic. You believe that I or Natas is wrong, but that does not guarantee that this is so.

Ah, my dear Blue, I do of course remember this. 3nodding That is why I do my best to be as tolerant as possible of other beliefs. (I'm certainly not going to abandon my dear dear atheist or wiccan friends because we do not believe the same thing.)

But it is certainly fair for me to say that those who disagree with me are incorrect, because it is the truth. There is simply no getting around that. Although I suppose I could soften it by stating that it is all what I believe. You are each welcome to believe what you wish, but that does not make you correct either. And in the end, I do believe that only one belief is correct, and that is why I made the statements as strong as I did.

[Tarrou]

Ablazed

Ah, my dear Blue, I do of course remember this. 3nodding That is why I do my best to be as tolerant as possible of other beliefs. (I'm certainly not going to abandon my dear dear atheist or wiccan friends because we do not believe the same thing.)

But it is certainly fair for me to say that those who disagree with me are incorrect, because it is the truth. There is simply no getting around that. Although I suppose I could soften it by stating that it is all what I believe. You are each welcome to believe what you wish, but that does not make you correct either. And in the end, I do believe that only one belief is correct, and that is why I made the statements as strong as I did.

Just remember to use your qualifiers. Adding the verb "believe" does wonders for diffusing potential conflicts (and challenges of "prove it" wink . "I believe that my beliefs are true" doesn't rankle as much as "My beliefs are true".

And it is well within your right to believe thusly. If you feel that that is the nature of your faith then so be it. That is its nature and there is no changing it.

[blackeyedsloth]

Ablazed

What, pray tell, do you think the solution would be? You compare this "debate" to Santa. Being that Santa does not really exist, this is already a loaded argument.

I believe in God. In fact, I know He is real. That makes anyone who does not believe in God absolutely incorrect. Like it or not, that is exactly how I feel. And I shall not hesitate to attempt to persuade people that my God is real, simply because I do believe they are wrong, and they are going to suffer for their incorrect beliefs. That's no good, and I do what I can do about it. Especially since my religion commands me to do so.

If someone told me that I was a man, I would be swift to correct them (and actually, highly disturbed). This is the same sort of thing. Sort of a form of correction.

This, is an example of precisely what I am talking about. People put all of their energy into this. The same energy would go into someone who strongly believes that there isn’t one and would go to intense lengths trying to prove it.
You cannot prove there isn’t one, you cannot prove there is. Hell, some people still believe in Santa. It's comforting, I understand that. I understand that it's based on upbringing as well. But then, so was the idea that Jews should be killed.
Don't get me wrong, the God thing and the anti-God thing are both many times more harmless, but it's the same principle.
Who knows, what if the Nazi's had something there.

The point is, you spent all of that time and energy into an argument that doesn't need to be around at all. What's going on in your life? Do you have loved ones? Love them. Don't love something that may or may not be there. Don't love the idea that they may or may not be there. Don't ask them for things, don't blame them for things. You have the power to correct and provide things for yourself. You have plenty to love and be loved by. Why bother?

[Shaviv]

Ablazed, your God is real - to you. To anyone else, the fact that your God is speaking to you would be indicative of difficulty distinguishing between one's inner voice and actual hearing - a hallmark of schizophrenia.

[Ablazed]

First: I most certainly do not need to prove or defend God. He can do that just fine Himself. I do try to inform people of Him, however, and that is the difference.

And the second part of your post is rather baffling.

blackeyedsloth

The point is, you spent all of that time and energy into an argument that doesn't need to be around at all.

One one level, you're right. God can certainly answer for Himself. But that is not what you are getting at. It sounds as though you are saying that because there is no god to begin with, I am wasting my life. That's beyond false, and you most certainly cannot prove your position any more than I can prove mine.

blackeyedsloth

What's going on in your life? Do you have loved ones? Love them.

So.... are you implying that there is some sort of quota or limit on my ability to love? Because I love God, I can't love people as well? That is not true. I have loved ones, I adore them and they do not doubt it. At the same time, I love my God. It isn't something that's going to run out.

blackeyedsloth

Don't love something that may or may not be there. Don't love the idea that they may or may not be there.

And this is the other extreme you were talking about. You are directly telling me not to have any faith. You are directly tellng me to become an atheist. Conversely, I stated that my faith was the only correct one. You and I have done the same thing here, do you see? This is not a one sided coin, and all this "conflict" as you put it is not caused simply by those who have faith pushing it around in other people's faces. (Obviously this happens and is a bad thing at times.) Lack of faith can be spoken of with the same intensity.

blackeyedsloth

Don't ask them for things, don't blame them for things. You have the power to correct and provide things for yourself. You have plenty to love and be loved by. Why bother?

I do indeed have plenty to love and be loved by, and I'm most certainly thankful for that. And I do indeed have the power to do things for myself, I know that too. But your question baffles me. Why bother to love God? Well, I believe that God created me. (Izzat better, Blue? The "I believe"?) I believe that He has done wonderful things just for me, and I love Him. I certainly don't think it is a waste of energy to love Him, nor is it a waste of energy to be able to improve myself because of this love.

And Shaviv: No arguments there. You're absolutely correct. Others are most certainly allowed to believe I'm crazy. That doesn't mean they're right.