Is Islam a violent/ lost/ currupted religion.

do polls encourage you to read a thread

yes	50.5%	[ 432 ]
no	49.5%	[ 424 ]
Total Votes:			[ 856 ]

[SouthernCross]

No. Those terrorists and such aren't even considered Muslims by the Islam community, so they don't count.

So any arguments pertaining to Al-Qaeda or one of the many Muslim extremists are irrelevant.

[Shaviv]

CoolCosmic

Shaviv

Islam has also had a real serious golden age, equivalent to what the Greeks had

Muslims were way ahead.

thats too much of an exaggeration. Muslims were ahead, but its not really "way ahead".

You need to study your history. Muslims were "way ahead". You wanted chemistry? They had it. You wanted nifty weapons? They had it. You wanted scholarship? They had it. You wanted mathematics? They had it. You wanted biology and medicine? They had it. Not like we have now, but quite reasonable for the state of technology back then. You had scholarly treatises on astronomy, geometry, the fine anatomy of the eyeball and the circulatory system - this is stuff that Europe didn't have until the seventeenth century.

Quote:

Muslims stopped advancing because they realized that all they need is religion. That everything they need to know should be in their holy book. Everything else is irrelevant.

That may be the immediate cause, but surely there is an ultimate cause that lies deeper than that. What was it, after all, that caused a shift in the religion from its highly intellectual state to what we now see, a more dogmatic and doctrinaire Islam? Surely there was something a little deeper than "Some imams got together and decided that enough modernity was enough", especially because of the benefits that modernity had brought to everyone.

[DapperSam]

Shaviv

CoolCosmic

Shaviv

Islam has also had a real serious golden age, equivalent to what the Greeks had

Muslims were way ahead.

thats too much of an exaggeration. Muslims were ahead, but its not really "way ahead".

You need to study your history. Muslims were "way ahead". You wanted chemistry? They had it. You wanted nifty weapons? They had it. You wanted scholarship? They had it. You wanted mathematics? They had it. You wanted biology and medicine? They had it. Not like we have now, but quite reasonable for the state of technology back then. You had scholarly treatises on astronomy, geometry, the fine anatomy of the eyeball and the circulatory system - this is stuff that Europe didn't have until the seventeenth century.

Quote:

Muslims stopped advancing because they realized that all they need is religion. That everything they need to know should be in their holy book. Everything else is irrelevant.

That may be the immediate cause, but surely there is an ultimate cause that lies deeper than that. What was it, after all, that caused a shift in the religion from its highly intellectual state to what we now see, a more dogmatic and doctrinaire Islam? Surely there was something a little deeper than "Some imams got together and decided that enough modernity was enough", especially because of the benefits that modernity had brought to everyone.

Quote:

After the Kharijite movement, a more powerful sect based on rational theology emerged in the Muslim world. Popularly known as Mutazilites, this movement preceded the four permanent schools of jurisprudence in Sunni Islam. During eighth and ninth centuries, Greek philosophical and scientific works were being translated into Arabic. At the same time, Muslims entered into controversies with theological dualists (e.g. the Gnostics or the Manichaeans). Mutazilites believed that divine predestination of human acts was incompatible with God's justice and with human responsibility. They emphasized the role of reason. But, in the early ninth century, the Mutazilite rationalists began to persecute their opponents. During the tenth century, the reaction against the Mutazilites culminated in the formulation and subsequent general acceptance of a set of theological propositions that became Sunni, or "Orthodox" Muslim theology. This theological development was initiated by Ali al-Ash'ari (A.D. 873-935), an early Muslim theologian whose contribution has been discussed by Richard Joseph McCarthy in The Theology of al-Ash'ari (1953).

Here is a paper in Islam in general that addresses this, and other sects.

[CoolCosmic]

Shaviv

You need to study your history. Muslims were "way ahead". You wanted chemistry? They had it. You wanted nifty weapons? They had it. You wanted scholarship? They had it. You wanted mathematics? They had it. You wanted biology and medicine? They had it. Not like we have now, but quite reasonable for the state of technology back then. You had scholarly treatises on astronomy, geometry, the fine anatomy of the eyeball and the circulatory system - this is stuff that Europe didn't have until the seventeenth century.

yeah so did everyone else. chemistry, nifty weapons, education, math, biology, medicine. you name it. the muslims only knew a couple more tricks in "most" of these field. its not really "way ahead"

Shaviv

That may be the immediate cause, but surely there is an ultimate cause that lies deeper than that.

for muslims religion is the ultimate cause, the beginning and end of man's purpose on earth.

[Hell Heim]

G.M.-Skel+

Islam is an imperialistic, expansionist religion.
It is not peaceful.
Muhammad Ibn Abdallah Ibn Al-Muttalib(570-632), the prophet of islam, was a man of war who taught his followers to spread his religion by the sword.
Muhammad was a rapist, a *****, a raider who butchered thousands of people who would not subdue before Allah.
This is where Islam comes from.
Those are its roots; Islam was born out of war.
Islam can't accept the other religions which currently exist.
This is the root cause of todays conflict.
This is their motivation.
It is the divinly ordained duty of all muslims to fight in the literal sense, until man-made law has been replaced by God's law, the Sharia, and Islamic law has conquered the entire world.
Muslims have been trying to achieve this goal for 14 hundred years.
This isn't a new conflict; it started in the 7th century.
Moderate Muslims speak of Islam coexisting with other religions and say that the Qu'ran includes many passages promoting peace with the "people of the book" (Jews and Christians).
These are lies.
I accept that the majority of moderate muslims may truly believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, but they are wrong.
For every text moderate Muslims may produce to try to show its peaceful side, there are dozens of counter examples which are both philosophically and historically far more legitimate.
I am not a racist.
I'm just spreading truth.
You can find the truth about Islam yourself by reading the following books, they're a pretty good start:

The Qu'ran, translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

The life of Muhammad: a translation of ibn ishaq's work: Sirat Rasul Allah, by A. Guillaume

An Introduction to Islamic Law by Joseph Schacht

Jihad in the West: Muslim Conquests From the 7th to the 21st Centuries, by Paul Fregosi

Why I'm Not a Muslim, by Ibn Warraq

islam was not born out of war i am a muslim and im proud of it

[Hell Heim]

TeaDidikai

G.M.-Skel+

Muhammed, the prophet of Islam, the *****.
He is deemed by all Muslims to be the model human being.
He married Aisha when he was 51, and she was 6.
He then consumated the marriage when she was 9.

Wo0t! Someone who is completely ignorant of cultural context! Yay!

Missed the whole custom and age of marriage in his time did we? rolleyes

he did that to protect her u see she was poor and she was living on the streets and in the village she could go to no one for help because if somebody let her in to live with them the villagers would kill the guest so the only way was marrage and muhammed (PBUH) was to caring and he married her to save her she would have been killed even if she was living on the streets

[Shaviv]

CoolCosmic

Shaviv

You need to study your history. Muslims were "way ahead". You wanted chemistry? They had it. You wanted nifty weapons? They had it. You wanted scholarship? They had it. You wanted mathematics? They had it. You wanted biology and medicine? They had it. Not like we have now, but quite reasonable for the state of technology back then. You had scholarly treatises on astronomy, geometry, the fine anatomy of the eyeball and the circulatory system - this is stuff that Europe didn't have until the seventeenth century.

yeah so did everyone else. chemistry, nifty weapons, education, math, biology, medicine. you name it. the muslims only knew a couple more tricks in "most" of these field. its not really "way ahead"

No, "everyone else" did not, especially when you consider Christian civilization in that tally of "everyone else". You are hilariously misinformed.

Quote:

Shaviv

That may be the immediate cause, but surely there is an ultimate cause that lies deeper than that.

for muslims religion is the ultimate cause, the beginning and end of man's purpose on earth.

Thank you for misunderstanding my question. Please re-read it, and make at least a good-faith effort at answering it.

[The Cunnilinguist]

Shaviv

CoolCosmic

Shaviv

Islam has also had a real serious golden age, equivalent to what the Greeks had

Muslims were way ahead.

thats too much of an exaggeration. Muslims were ahead, but its not really "way ahead".

You need to study your history. Muslims were "way ahead". You wanted chemistry? They had it.

...borrowed from the Indians and the Greeks.

Shaviv

You wanted nifty weapons? They had it.

...borrowed from the preexisting cultures in Turkey and Iraq.

Shaviv

You wanted scholarship? They had it. You wanted mathematics? They had it.

Most, if not all of it, unabashedly ripped off from preexisting treatises from India. They took the numeric system, the rational concepts, the circumference of the unit circle, and centuries of hard mathematical study, leaving only a telltale sign that they really got it from somewhere else (Hindsa). Really, their system of mathematics isn't just predated, I'd go so far as to suggest that algebraic concepts were stolen from Indian theses.

Shaviv

You wanted biology and medicine? They had it.

Again, taken from Indians and Greeks. All they did was take previously completed work and practiced it vigorously, and before the West knew of any of these things. That does not make them innovators.

Shaviv

Not like we have now, but quite reasonable for the state of technology back then. You had scholarly treatises on astronomy, geometry, the fine anatomy of the eyeball and the circulatory system - this is stuff that Europe didn't have until the seventeenth century.

Barring the anatomy of the eyeball (which I might later contest), you're going to have to point out Muslim strides in those fields which weren't borrowed from existing Indian treaties. Indians got a bum deal out of it; someone else gets credit for their accomplishments, and ultimately get slaughtered before the Mughals decide to have their way with India.

Shaviv

That may be the immediate cause, but surely there is an ultimate cause that lies deeper than that. What was it, after all, that caused a shift in the religion from its highly intellectual state to what we now see, a more dogmatic and doctrinaire Islam? Surely there was something a little deeper than "Some imams got together and decided that enough modernity was enough", especially because of the benefits that modernity had brought to everyone.

If you look at it from my perspective, a probable cause was that they couldn't find anyone else to cheat out of advancements.

[Shaviv]

DapperSam: again, that's a proximate cause, not an ultimate cause.

CunningLinguist: it's partly about the trade routes and who you can borrow ideas from, but it's also about what you value. Had Europe at that time valued scientific investigation, mathematics, and so on, they would have copied it from the Muslim empire. But they didn't value those things, for whatever reason, at that time. It was only much later, in the seventeenth century, that Europe began to show real interest. (Why? I too would like to know.)

But no, they didn't come up with those ideas on their own. As Solomon said, "There is nothing new under the sun".

[xDark Llamax]

in my veiw all religions are currupt, some more then others but name any reigion and you can find an example of something appaling being done in the name of it. Thats one of the reasons Im atheist.

[Ashley G Williams]

xDark Llamax

in my veiw all religions are currupt, some more then others but name any reigion and you can find an example of something appaling being done in the name of it. Thats one of the reasons Im atheist.

i cant think of one wrond deed a pastafarian has ever done, they are a nonviolent and good people

[Eneldor]

xDark Llamax

in my veiw all religions are currupt, some more then others but name any reigion and you can find an example of something appaling being done in the name of it. Thats one of the reasons Im atheist.

Not only do you not understand religion but you don't understand atheism.
Athiesm is not the lack of religion, but the lack of believing in gods. There are many atheistic religions in the world, and some followers of those religions frequent this forum.
If you're not going to respond to my response to your CB'd "Don't be brain washed!!" thread, I hope you at least read it.

[CoolCosmic]

Shaviv

CoolCosmic

Shaviv

You need to study your history. Muslims were "way ahead". You wanted chemistry? They had it. You wanted nifty weapons? They had it. You wanted scholarship? They had it. You wanted mathematics? They had it. You wanted biology and medicine? They had it. Not like we have now, but quite reasonable for the state of technology back then. You had scholarly treatises on astronomy, geometry, the fine anatomy of the eyeball and the circulatory system - this is stuff that Europe didn't have until the seventeenth century.

yeah so did everyone else. chemistry, nifty weapons, education, math, biology, medicine. you name it. the muslims only knew a couple more tricks in "most" of these field. its not really "way ahead"

No, "everyone else" did not, especially when you consider Christian civilization in that tally of "everyone else". You are hilariously misinformed.

misinformed? My friend, the crusades survived for 200 years far away from europe and surrounded by muslim hordes because the europeans had their own ‘nifty weapons’ and knowledge on medicine & chemistry.

Face it, what really gave muslims their edge back then was their unity and their numbers, not what they know. Their lifestyle isnt much different from the europeans. Muslims were not enomormously wealthy compared to europeans. Muslims were never “way ahead”.

The couple of new tricks they knew wasnt enough to give muslims any serious advantage.

[Kimyanji]

CoolCosmic

Shaviv

CoolCosmic

Shaviv

You need to study your history. Muslims were "way ahead". You wanted chemistry? They had it. You wanted nifty weapons? They had it. You wanted scholarship? They had it. You wanted mathematics? They had it. You wanted biology and medicine? They had it. Not like we have now, but quite reasonable for the state of technology back then. You had scholarly treatises on astronomy, geometry, the fine anatomy of the eyeball and the circulatory system - this is stuff that Europe didn't have until the seventeenth century.

yeah so did everyone else. chemistry, nifty weapons, education, math, biology, medicine. you name it. the muslims only knew a couple more tricks in "most" of these field. its not really "way ahead"

No, "everyone else" did not, especially when you consider Christian civilization in that tally of "everyone else". You are hilariously misinformed.

misinformed? My friend, the crusades survived for 200 years far away from europe and surrounded by muslim hordes because the europeans had their own ‘nifty weapons’ and knowledge on medicine & chemistry.

Face it, what really gave muslims their edge back then was their unity and their numbers, not what they know. Their lifestyle isnt much different from the europeans. Muslims were not enomormously wealthy compared to europeans. Muslims were never “way ahead”.

The couple of new tricks they knew wasnt enough to give muslims any serious advantage.

Actually, a reason neglected for the success of the crusades was a political fragmentations of Muslims at the time. One work SaLAHuDdeEN was accredited for was the unification of a big nation after desposing of the Fatimid Khaleefah.

At the time, Europe was still in the dark ages, while Baghdad a short time before might have been the most advanced city of its time.

No one remembers that there were political and economical factors that contributed to the Crusades. It's not all nifty weapons and tactics. It's about who has the political/economical/social/scientific upper hand and actually uses it. The Moghoul invasion of Baghdad is a good example.

[CoolCosmic]

Kimyanji

No one remembers that there were political and economical factors that contributed to the Crusades. It's not all nifty weapons and tactics. It's about who has the political/economical/social/scientific upper hand and actually uses it. The Moghoul invasion of Baghdad is a good example.

The European side of the Crusade was a huge political and economic undertaking. Just imagine how warring kings were united against a common enemy, and how their huge armies were allowed to pass through the Byzantine empire who did not trust them. Imagine the logistics involved in keeping this army functioning hundreds of miles from home. The Crusades was a Wonder in its days.

Their nifty armaments consist of full plate armors and cross shaped broad swords that can do much more than slicing an enemy in half.

When it comes to science nobody back then had enough upperhand to make a difference.

Islam's achievement were magnified beyond reasonable bounds. It appears that Shaviv had been hearing too much propaganda.