FAQs About Mormonism - Discussion

[Keene Maverick]

Gadianton

Amos 3:7 "Surley the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Now I believe Gods always called prophets. WHy not have a prophet today admist all the turmoil in todays society. Thats my own feelings on the matter.

In that case, your statement of Christ being your Prophet is false. You then must take the modern prophets at their word, including Brigham Young.

Now, briggy, this boy seems to be confused as to whether he wants to follow you or christ. Smack some sense into him.

[Nephina]

Keene Maverick

In that case, your statement of Christ being your Prophet is false. You then must take the modern prophets at their word, including Brigham Young.

Now, briggy, this boy seems to be confused as to whether he wants to follow you or christ. Smack some sense into him.

Boxy

Acts 3:19-23 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

JS-H 40 "In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when ?they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,? but soon would come."

Hmmm. It appears that "Christ = Prophet" is a fairly well-established phenomenon in the LDS Church.

Not false at all. Not by any means. I believe the leaders of the church teach that all men should do good. Christ is still the prophet, but still works through others to accomplish his purposes.

[Boxy]

Gadianton

Not false at all. Not by any means. I believe the leaders of the church teach that all men should do good. Christ is still the prophet, but still works through others to accomplish his purposes.

Which sounds somewhat like a feudalist structure. God calls Christ, which calls prophets, which call priests, teachers, deacons, et cetera. Each has a specific duty and each has a specific calling. Some are called to preach; some are called to expound; some are called to serve. All work in the grand scheme of things, however.

Christ could be considered our "Prophet" because he brings the Covenant and will of the Father. Therefore, obedience to him is obedience to the Father.

[Darkslider]

Pyropyre, there are several fundamental problems with you assertations in the above post.

1. You completely ignore Joseph Smith and his statements about the Church being "The Only True Church Upon The Face of The Earth!"

2. You include a quote from Brigham Young (which I might add, you have taken out of contex. . . remember the fuss you pulled when I used an elipsis in a quote, Bad TBM).

3. You completely ignored other statements by Brigham Young about the Church being the only truth in the universe and if you don't believe it, you will be damned for eternity.

4. Yes, that quote from B. H. Roberts does at first glance seem to support your statement, but then one has to look at things in complete CONTEXT!
a. B. H. Roberts was not a high ranking member of the Church leadership, he was a member of the 70's. As such, what he says cannot be taken as scripture.
b. B. H. Roberts did not believe the Book of Mormon to be completely true, apparently for a significant portion of his time in the 70's.
c. Given the above statement, one might just wonder why you are holding up this "doubting Thomas" to back your stance.

To be perfectly frank with you, I find you to be quite despicible for quoting B. H. Roberts. If you want to go into that statement further. . . I would love to.

[Houshou]

Darkslider

Pyropyre, there are several fundamental problems with you assertations in the above post.

1. You completely ignore Joseph Smith and his statements about the Church being "The Only True Church Upon The Face of The Earth!"

I agree this is a complete assennine(sp?) statement. It can not be the One and Only. I assume that for /ANY/ Church to correctly claim this, GOD woudl have to work for /them/. NOT visa-versa.

Darkslider

2. You include a quote from Brigham Young (which I might add, you have taken out of contex. . . remember the fuss you pulled when I used an elipsis in a quote, Bad TBM).

3. You completely ignored other statements by Brigham Young about the Church being the only truth in the universe and if you don't believe it, you will be damned for eternity.

4. Yes, that quote from B. H. Roberts does at first glance seem to support your statement, but then one has to look at things in complete CONTEXT!
a. B. H. Roberts was not a high ranking member of the Church leadership, he was a member of the 70's. As such, what he says cannot be taken as scripture.
b. B. H. Roberts did not believe the Book of Mormon to be completely true, apparently for a significant portion of his time in the 70's.
c. Given the above statement, one might just wonder why you are holding up this "doubting Thomas" to back your stance.

To be perfectly frank with you, I find you to be quite despicible for quoting B. H. Roberts. If you want to go into that statement further. . . I would love to.

as for the rest of this....I'll pick it apart later. Major ceremony right now.

[Boxy]

Houshou

Darkslider

Pyropyre, there are several fundamental problems with you assertations in the above post.

1. You completely ignore Joseph Smith and his statements about the Church being "The Only True Church Upon The Face of The Earth!"

I agree this is a complete assennine(sp?) statement. It can not be the One and Only. I assume that for /ANY/ Church to correctly claim this, GOD woudl have to work for /them/. NOT visa-versa.

Asinine. Close enough, though blaugh

I consider "true" to be more along the definition of "accurate" or "inerrant". Thus, one could make an argument that the statement is that the Church is truly lead by Jesus Christ; furthermore, one could also argue that the Melchizedek priesthood is the "one true priesthood", but that the lower ordinances are branches of that priesthood. For example, the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods were more or less always on the earth, even though the Melchizedek was not.

In other news, I've begun to consider that the RLDS Church is most likely the administration of the tribe of Manasseh. That's a mite of speculation on my part though, but it seems to work out in my head, what with most members of the LDS Church being from the tribe of Ephraim, as well as possible scriptural backing for a separate quorum for the "Church" based out of Jerusalem, which would most undoubtedly be from the tribe of Judah 3nodding

Of course, establishing what all the other tribes represent is one billy of a doozy.

[Darkslider]

Boxy

Houshou

Darkslider

Pyropyre, there are several fundamental problems with you assertations in the above post.

1. You completely ignore Joseph Smith and his statements about the Church being "The Only True Church Upon The Face of The Earth!"

I agree this is a complete assennine(sp?) statement. It can not be the One and Only. I assume that for /ANY/ Church to correctly claim this, GOD woudl have to work for /them/. NOT visa-versa.

Asinine. Close enough, though blaugh

I consider "true" to be more along the definition of "accurate" or "inerrant". Thus, one could make an argument that the statement is that the Church is truly lead by Jesus Christ; furthermore, one could also argue that the Melchizedek priesthood is the "one true priesthood", but that the lower ordinances are branches of that priesthood. For example, the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods were more or less always on the earth, even though the Melchizedek was not.

In other news, I've begun to consider that the RLDS Church is most likely the administration of the tribe of Manasseh. That's a mite of speculation on my part though, but it seems to work out in my head, what with most members of the LDS Church being from the tribe of Ephraim, as well as possible scriptural backing for a separate quorum for the "Church" based out of Jerusalem, which would most undoubtedly be from the tribe of Judah 3nodding

Of course, establishing what all the other tribes represent is one billy of a doozy.

You said doozy!

[Boxy]

Darkslider

You said doozy!

You can't prove that in a court of law ninja

[Houshou]

Boxy

Houshou

Darkslider

Pyropyre, there are several fundamental problems with you assertations in the above post.

1. You completely ignore Joseph Smith and his statements about the Church being "The Only True Church Upon The Face of The Earth!"

I agree this is a complete assennine(sp?) statement. It can not be the One and Only. I assume that for /ANY/ Church to correctly claim this, GOD woudl have to work for /them/. NOT visa-versa.

Asinine. Close enough, though blaugh

I consider "true" to be more along the definition of "accurate" or "inerrant". Thus, one could make an argument that the statement is that the Church is truly lead by Jesus Christ; furthermore, one could also argue that the Melchizedek priesthood is the "one true priesthood", but that the lower ordinances are branches of that priesthood. For example, the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods were more or less always on the earth, even though the Melchizedek was not.

A True Church is a Church being lead by Christ. - I agree.
Melchizedek Priesthood being the "One True Priesthood". - Yes and No. From my understanding, The Aaronic (I've never heard mention of the Levitical, but not going to count it out.) Priesthood is a dumbed down version of the Melchizedek. However, it was the Melchizedek that God used to do all of the stuff that he has done for us. Thus, the Aaronic is a "True" Priesthood, just not the one that God uses to perform all of his miracles.
And, The Aaronic and Levitical Priesthoods more or less have always been here even though the Melchizedek was not. - I agree.

Boxy

In other news, I've begun to consider that the RLDS Church is most likely the administration of the tribe of Manasseh. That's a mite of speculation on my part though, but it seems to work out in my head, what with most members of the LDS Church being from the tribe of Ephraim, as well as possible scriptural backing for a separate quorum for the "Church" based out of Jerusalem, which would most undoubtedly be from the tribe of Judah 3nodding

Yes, I have also noticed that most of everyone who gets a Patriartical(sp?) Blessing within the Church end up being from the Tribe of Ephraim. I have always felt that, that part of my PB has been wrong. It just doesn't roll right when I read it. Know what I mean? Your reading something and it just doesn't make sense anyway you try to read it. Just doesn't sit right with me. The rest of my PB is fine.
I've never heard of this "seperate Quorum" for the Tribe of Judah, if it is set aside for Judah or any one of the other Tribes.

Boxy

Of course, establishing what all the other tribes represent is one billy of a doozy.

"from out of the mouths of two of my witnesses shall the truth be spread"
(Or w/e the hell the actual quote says. I'm at work and can't go looking for it.)

You have been caught by two people that you have said "doozy". We must be speaking the truth because there's two of us accusing you of it.

[Boxy]

Houshou

A True Church is a Church being lead by Christ. - I agree.
Melchizedek Priesthood being the "One True Priesthood". - Yes and No. From my understanding, The Aaronic (I've never heard mention of the Levitical, but not going to count it out.) Priesthood is a dumbed down version of the Melchizedek. However, it was the Melchizedek that God used to do all of the stuff that he has done for us. Thus, the Aaronic is a "True" Priesthood, just not the one that God uses to perform all of his miracles.
And, The Aaronic and Levitical Priesthoods more or less have always been here even though the Melchizedek was not. - I agree.

D&C 107:13-14 "The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations. Why it is called the lesser priesthood is because it is an appendage to the greater, or the Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances."

One could argue from a "One and Only True Church" perspective that all the other churches are "appendages" to the LDS Church.

Houshou

Yes, I have also noticed that most of everyone who gets a Patriartical(sp?) Blessing within the Church end up being from the Tribe of Ephraim. I have always felt that, that part of my PB has been wrong. It just doesn't roll right when I read it. Know what I mean? Your reading something and it just doesn't make sense anyway you try to read it. Just doesn't sit right with me. The rest of my PB is fine.

You could always be adopted in from another tribe. I always felt that I was a descendent of Aaron and a natural-born leader; however, my patriarchal blessing said I was of the tribe of Ephraim, as well as referring to leadership opportunities.

*shrugs* There are specific reasons why one is in one tribe. For some, it's administration; for others it's because they have a particular task. That's why I want to discover what it means to belong to a particular tribe. Some of the "lesser tribes", such as Dan, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Reuben, et cetera have very little commentary as to what their purposes is, if indeed all the tribes have a purpose in the Second Coming.

Houshou

I've never heard of this "seperate Quorum" for the Tribe of Judah, if it is set aside for Judah or any one of the other Tribes.

It comes from Revelation 4:4 - there are twenty-four elders, not twelve.

Houshou

Boxy

Of course, establishing what all the other tribes represent is one billy of a doozy.

"from out of the mouths of two of my witnesses shall the truth be spread"
(Or w/e the hell the actual quote says. I'm at work and can't go looking for it.)

You have been caught by two people that you have said "doozy". We must be speaking the truth because there's two of us accusing you of it.

I have been hah-duh! gonk

[Speck-Cipher]

Houshou

Yes, I have also noticed that most of everyone who gets a Patriartical(sp?) Blessing within the Church end up being from the Tribe of Ephraim. I have always felt that, that part of my PB has been wrong. It just doesn't roll right when I read it. Know what I mean? Your reading something and it just doesn't make sense anyway you try to read it. Just doesn't sit right with me. The rest of my PB is fine.

Three posiblilities exist for this.
1. You were not of the tribe of ephriam but were adopted.
2. You are only slightly a part of ephriams blood line.
3. Your tribe your were told is wrong and you know it. It happends.

Oh the funny stories the tribe of Ephriam has done. They were quite... active.

[Houshou]

Boxy

D&C 107:13-14 "The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations. Why it is called the lesser priesthood is because it is an appendage to the greater, or the Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances."

One could argue from a "One and Only True Church" perspective that all the other churches are "appendages" to the LDS Church.

OK, but that still claims that /God/ works for the Church. And not the Church works for God. So in that aspect God works for all Religions, and not ALL /religions/ work for God.

Boxy

You could always be adopted in from another tribe. I always felt that I was a descendent of Aaron and a natural-born leader; however, my patriarchal blessing said I was of the tribe of Ephraim, as well as referring to leadership opportunities.

I like the idea of being adopted.
Reading my PB, it sounds like I have a major playing role in this generation and the next. God, wants me alive to accomplish something. and considering I believe and feel that he has stretched out his hand to protect me in several incidents, in just the last month. That he really does have some major important role for me.

Boxy

It comes from Revelation 4:4 - there are twenty-four elders, not twelve.

I remember that, now. and speaking of other positions.
Where did the LDS Leaders find it that talks about the Quorum of the 70's?
Did they come up with that calling, or is it actually written? The back of my mind is telling me Deut. somewhere... sweatdrop but that's just a feeling.

[Boxy]

Houshou

OK, but that still claims that /God/ works for the Church. And not the Church works for God. So in that aspect God works for all Religions, and not ALL /religions/ work for God.

The general consensus among LDS is that God works for everyone, but we work for God. I'm not entirely convinced that we're the only ones out there - there could very easily be still a few enclaves of ancient Judaism from the Ten Tribes that still legitimately have the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood to administer baptisms sweatdrop

Houshou

Boxy

You could always be adopted in from another tribe. I always felt that I was a descendent of Aaron and a natural-born leader; however, my patriarchal blessing said I was of the tribe of Ephraim, as well as referring to leadership opportunities.

I like the idea of being adopted.
Reading my PB, it sounds like I have a major playing role in this generation and the next. God, wants me alive to accomplish something. and considering I believe and feel that he has stretched out his hand to protect me in several incidents, in just the last month. That he really does have some major important role for me.

Every gear has its place, even the smallest one. Otherwise the machine, no matter how well-oiled and maintained it is, will never function properly.

Houshou

I remember that, now. and speaking of other positions.
Where did the LDS Leaders find it that talks about the Quorum of the 70's?
Did they come up with that calling, or is it actually written? The back of my mind is telling me Deut. somewhere... sweatdrop but that's just a feeling.

Ex. 24: 1 (Ex. 24: 9) seventy of the elders of Israel.
Num. 11: 16 Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel.
Ezek. 8: 11 seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel.
Luke 10: 1 Lord appointed other seventy.
Luke 10: 17 the seventy returned again with joy.

http://scriptures.lds.org/

[Nephina]

Houshou

A True Church is a Church being lead by Christ. - I agree.
Melchizedek Priesthood being the "One True Priesthood". - Yes and No. From my understanding, The Aaronic (I've never heard mention of the Levitical, but not going to count it out.)

The Levitical order were those who were of the tribe of Levi, they along with those descendants of Aaron, had duties to maintain and to preform ordinances done in the temple. Among other duties they also collected a 'tithe' from the people. This priesthood has also handed down from one generation to another even until the time of Jesus. To make note: Christ refers to one in the parable relating to the good Samaratian. How one fell among the thieves and how a Levite passed him by as well as a priest went by and passed by the man. Both of which held temple duties. I hope that sheds dome light on the subject. Note to also show the contrast between the 2 groups of people the Samaritans were hated by the Jews and like wise. Those who duties it was to help those less fortunate, while a Samaritain shows that love and takes care of this poor fellow.

[Pyropyre]

Darkslider

Pyropyre, there are several fundamental problems with you assertations in the above post.

1. You completely ignore Joseph Smith and his statements about the Church being "The Only True Church Upon The Face of The Earth!"

2. You include a quote from Brigham Young (which I might add, you have taken out of contex. . . remember the fuss you pulled when I used an elipsis in a quote, Bad TBM).

3. You completely ignored other statements by Brigham Young about the Church being the only truth in the universe and if you don't believe it, you will be damned for eternity.

4. Yes, that quote from B. H. Roberts does at first glance seem to support your statement, but then one has to look at things in complete CONTEXT!
a. B. H. Roberts was not a high ranking member of the Church leadership, he was a member of the 70's. As such, what he says cannot be taken as scripture.
b. B. H. Roberts did not believe the Book of Mormon to be completely true, apparently for a significant portion of his time in the 70's.
c. Given the above statement, one might just wonder why you are holding up this "doubting Thomas" to back your stance.

To be perfectly frank with you, I find you to be quite despicible for quoting B. H. Roberts. If you want to go into that statement further. . . I would love to.

Concerning B. H. Roberts, my buddies at the FAIR boards were just having this discussion and they say B. H. Roberts didn't lose his testimony. Why I'd quote "doubting Thomas", is because it came out of The Seventy's course in Theology, first year. And there are many quotes by Apostles that more or less said the same thing he did.

Apostle Orson F. Whitney: "/After quoting several verses from Alma 29.1-9 continues: These verses/ tell one that Providence is over all, and that he holds the nations in the hollow of his hand; that he is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work..../God/ is using men as his instruments. Nor is he limited in the choice of instruments to his own people....Outside the pale of their /prophetic, priesthood/ activities other good and great men, not bearing the Priesthood but possessing profundity of thought, great wisdom, and a desire to uplift their fellows, have been sent by the Almighty into many nations, to give them, not the fulness of the gospel, but that portion of truth that they were able to receive and wisely use. Such men as Confucius, Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates and Plato. ...They were servants of the Lord in a lesser sense, and were sent to those pagan or heathen nations to give them the measure of truth that a wise Providence had allotted to them." Orson F. Whitney, Conference Report 91 (April 1921): 32-3.

And Apostle George Q. Cannon, said simular things.

If you think that Brigham Young quote was taken out of context then I have many others. He rejected out of hand the idea that his church monopolized good intentions or righteousness. At times, he praised the virtues of Jews, Protestants, and Catholics.

Have I gotten this Brigham quote out of context too? "With your mind's eye look at the millions of them in all nations who are doing according to the best knowledge they possess. What! the Roman Catholics? Yes and then every one of her daughters down to the latest Protestant Church that has been orgainzed. They are all doing just as well as they can, and living according to the best light they have...What will be their state hereafter? Every faithful Methodist that has lived up to and faithfully fulfilled the requirements of his religion, according to the best light he had, doing good to all and evil to none, injuring no person upon the earth, honouring his God as far as he knew, will have as great a heaven as he ever anticipated in the flesh, and far greater. Every Presbyterian, every Quaker, and every Baptist, and every Roman Catholic member - every reformer, of whatever class or grade, that lives according to the best light they have, and never have an opportunity of receiving a greater light than the one in their possession, will have and enjoy all they live for."

So why did Brigham convert to Mormonism then? Because Brigham felt that Mormonism embraced all truth, both in heaven and on earth, and that the truth belonged to the eternal Gospel of the Son Jesus Christ for whom we are to worship, love, and exemplify.