FAQs About Mormonism - Discussion

[Nephina]

Theopneustos

Wow, more attacks on the Trinity, especially since nobody even mentioned it to begin with. It just shows how much you hate Trinitarians, such as myself. Polytheist. stare

Hatred of Mormonism Level: +100% biggrin

By the way, if that's from a site, which I'm sure it is, please refrain from plagiarism and credit the source.

Maybe you should read a little bit why don't you. Boxy clearly brought it up in his statement

Boxy

I see it no more "non-Christian" than the doctrine of trinity: three Persons composed of one Substance functioning as one God. If indeed the "gods" are inheritors of the kingdom of Heaven, then they are as One with the godhead.

[Darkslider]

Pyropyre

Theopneustos

Wow, more attacks on the Trinity, especially since nobody even mentioned it to begin with. It just shows how much you hate Trinitarians, such as myself. Polytheist. stare

Hatred of Mormonism Level: +100% biggrin

By the way, if that's from a site, which I'm sure it is, please refrain from plagiarism and credit the source.

There is no direct source, its my own research. If you question any of this, I can provided original sources.

Do you deny the Trinity is a Catholic invention, the same Catholics you Protestants believed to be in apostacy, yet adopted most of their hand-me-down beliefs? As worshiper of the one true God. The only reasonable definition of polytheism requires that plural gods be worshipped. In terms of worship, we are properly called monotheists. Rejecting the "one in substance" concept of post-biblical creeds does not make me a polytheist, in my opinion. Depending on the precise definition used, then so are YOU. If you worship three persons in trinity, thats still polytheistic. Because no Christian is purely monotheistic if you were to compared to Jewish or Islamic monotheism.

Not to nit-pick, but if you are going to denounce the Trinity as merely an "invention". . . then you must also denounce the Book of Mormon.

There are more verses in the Book of Mormon that talk about the "catholic" view of Trinity being correct, than not.

Don't try the blue smoke and mirrors here, baby-boy. You are among people who can and do read the Book of Mormon.

[Pyropyre]

Edit: sorry, an error

Darkslider

Not to nit-pick, but if you are going to denounce the Trinity as merely an "invention". . . then you must also denounce the Book of Mormon.

There are more verses in the Book of Mormon that talk about the "catholic" view of Trinity being correct, than not.

Don't try the blue smoke and mirrors here, baby-boy. You are among people who can and do read the Book of Mormon.

Then, perhaps you need help reading it. Cause we apparently disagree, in the Book of Mormon, the distinction between the Father and the Son is clearly illustrated.

Some passages in the Book of Mormon seem to indicate that there is only one God and that he is a spirit only. How can we explain this?

[Darkslider]

Pyropyre

Pyropyre

Theopneustos

Wow, more attacks on the Trinity, especially since nobody even mentioned it to begin with. It just shows how much you hate Trinitarians, such as myself. Polytheist. stare

Hatred of Mormonism Level: +100% biggrin

By the way, if that's from a site, which I'm sure it is, please refrain from plagiarism and credit the source.

There is no direct source, its all been researched by me. If you question any of this, I can provided original sources such as Basil of Caesareaca rejecting Christian beliefs of the past 4 centuried during the creation of the Trinitarian creeds born of Greek mysticism, or the names and materials of many (non-Mormon) scholars that were barely mentioned concerning distinction of beings in the oldest stratum of Israelite and early Christianity.

Do you deny the Trinity is a Catholic invention, the same Catholics you Protestants believed to be in apostacy, yet adopted most of their hand-me-down beliefs? As worshiper of the one true God. The only reasonable definition of polytheism requires that plural gods be worshipped. In terms of worship, we are properly called monotheists. Rejecting the "one in substance" concept of post-biblical creeds does not make me a polytheist, in my opinion. Depending on the precise definition used, then so are YOU. If you worship three persons in trinity, thats still polytheistic. Because no Christian is purely monotheistic if you were to compared to Jewish or Islamic monotheism.

And? Do you going to arrive at your point any time soon? Or do I have time to take a nap?

[Se Ga Takai]

Gadianton

Theopneustos

Wow, more attacks on the Trinity, especially since nobody even mentioned it to begin with. It just shows how much you hate Trinitarians, such as myself. Polytheist. stare

Hatred of Mormonism Level: +100% biggrin

By the way, if that's from a site, which I'm sure it is, please refrain from plagiarism and credit the source.

Please show me in the bible where Christ teaches of hatred towards others beliefs. If you disagree thats perfectly ok. But Christ teaches to love one another as I have loved you

Matthew 10:34-38

34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

[Ganseki Senpai]

Se Ga Takai

Gadianton

Theopneustos

Wow, more attacks on the Trinity, especially since nobody even mentioned it to begin with. It just shows how much you hate Trinitarians, such as myself. Polytheist. stare

Hatred of Mormonism Level: +100% biggrin

By the way, if that's from a site, which I'm sure it is, please refrain from plagiarism and credit the source.

Please show me in the bible where Christ teaches of hatred towards others beliefs. If you disagree thats perfectly ok. But Christ teaches to love one another as I have loved you

Matthew 10:34-38

34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

So where does it say that you should show hatred twards those that are not worthy of him? Not to mention that you cannot know who and what we love to what degree. eek

[Ganseki Senpai]

Darkslider

Gadianton

Why are people always looking for "proof"

Because "faith" is things hoped for and evidence of things unseen.

Proverbs 3:5-6

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

[chainmailleman]

It's funny how mormons only accept information from their church, everything else is a lie. Did you know that they touch your genitals in the temple? Did you know that for a long period in the 1800's and comming into the early 1900's that mormons did not call themselves christian? Did you know that Joseph Smith's actual teachings were polytheistic? The fact that you have the ability to become a god goes against all teachings of christianity. But TBMs don't know about that detail, nor will they believe anyone but what their church tells them. I find it funny that it is required to give 10% of your annual income to the church. Ever heard of the word occult? It means "hidden from veiw". I think this word fits mormonism quite nicely.

BTW: just because you believe in christ does not make you a christian.

[Houshou]

chainmailleman

It's funny how mormons only accept information from their church, everything else is a lie. Did you know that they touch your genitals in the temple? Did you know that for a long period in the 1800's and comming into the early 1900's that mormons did not call themselves christian? Did you know that Joseph Smith's actual teachings were polytheistic? The fact that you have the ability to become a god goes against all teachings of christianity. But TBMs don't know about that detail, nor will they believe anyone but what their church tells them. I find it funny that it is required to give 10% of your annual income to the church. Ever heard of the word occult? It means "hidden from veiw". I think this word fits mormonism quite nicely.

Everything the chruch tells me is the truth, huh? nothing else is true? and yet, everything is false. So what is the truth and who is speaking it? For if I can not clearly decide for my own whom I wish to believe in on who is telling the truth, I must turn to you and your all knowing answer...
give me a ******** break.

I have talked with many other Mormons using this very same logic. I have found 1 lie No Mormon can clearly dispute. Nothing is Perfect in these latter days.
Here is the Lie.
The LDS Church is the one and only true church on the earth.

That is the most outragous comment anyone can make and here's my logic. At multiple points in the OT /AND/ BoM there are multiple prophets on the Earth preaching the same thing. All considered by their respective book a Prophet of God. This means that if God wants or needs multiple prophets at ay moment in time upon this earth he can have them. His choice, what are we to say no? So, claiming we are the one and only true church is a flat out lie. However, I will not go as far as to claim that the LDS Church can't be a True Church. In my mind I believe that for any Church to be a TRUE Church of God, it has to preach and teach what Christ taught. Sure, you're going to get different preaches on the same thing. But that's because it's coming from someone elses point of view. So they can preach that how they see and/or believe it to be.

chainmailleman

BTW: just because you believe in christ does not make you a christian.

/AND/ How many times have we gone through this arguement now?

Fine, one more time for you... stare

Apparently I am not a Christian, ergo I must not know what is required to be considered a Christian. Please tell me what you think constitutes as requirements to be considered Christian.

[Ganseki Senpai]

[Pyropyre]

Ignore, chainmailleman. He's not listening to anything we say. He's talking about things he doesn't know anything about. While some are opinions, some isn't even true. So while on his left hand he's telling us his "facts" on his right hand, he's giving us a deaf ear.

chainmailleman seems not worth responding to. We can prove him wrong all day and he'll say the samething tomarrow.

[Darkslider]

Pyropyre

Ignore, chainmailleman. He's not listening to anything we say. He's talking about things he doesn't know anything about. While some are opinions, some isn't even true. So while on his left hand he's telling us his "facts" on his right hand, he's giving us a deaf ear.

chainmailleman seems not worth responding to. We can prove him wrong all day and he'll say the samething tomarrow.

Pot meet kettle. "Wassup, *****!"

[Houshou]

Darkslider

Pyropyre

Ignore, chainmailleman. He's not listening to anything we say. He's talking about things he doesn't know anything about. While some are opinions, some isn't even true. So while on his left hand he's telling us his "facts" on his right hand, he's giving us a deaf ear.

chainmailleman seems not worth responding to. We can prove him wrong all day and he'll say the samething tomarrow.

Pot meet kettle. "Wassup, *****!"

Wassup Pimpin'!

[Houshou]

Pyropyre

Ignore, chainmailleman. He's not listening to anything we say. He's talking about things he doesn't know anything about. While some are opinions, some isn't even true. So while on his left hand he's telling us his "facts" on his right hand, he's giving us a deaf ear.

chainmailleman seems not worth responding to. We can prove him wrong all day and he'll say the samething tomarrow.

Aw, another GoldyLocks...or whatever his name was. I see, well now that I know that the wind has another voice, I can get some sleep as I lay down in bed listening to that constant nagging I also seem to get while in sacrament meeting. You know the one...you wake up and zombie like walk to the next class with a bench mark in your forehead as it was made from smacking the pew in front of you. And the drool spot on your shirt passes off as spit from the neighbors little bundle of joy.

right...balln'chains,could you keep talking so I can get some decent sleep?

[Eteponge]

chainmailleman

Did you know that they touch your genitals in the temple?

Did you know that Abraham's sons touched his genitals in his blessing to them and that touching the genitals was a symbolic act in Old Testament times? The touching of the genital areas, and not just the genital areas, are a part of the Washing and Anointing section of the Endowment, where the key points of your body are Washed and Anointed. Do you know where the Temple Ordinances come from? If your answer is Masonry, they borrowed theirs from earlier sources, which in turn were borrowed them from Early Christianity and Jewish Mysticism.

Mormon Temple Rituals and the Mormon Temple Endowment are based upon Ancient Jewish and Early Christian ordinances and rites and ceremonies. Washings, Anointings, Blessings, and Sealings are all a part of the Old & New Testaments.

Ancient Jews and Early Christians taught Hand Signs of Recognition, Ritual Handclasps, and Passwords in order to pass by the Hostile Angels standing as Sentinels at the Gates of each of the Progressive Levels of Heaven. Early Roman Catholic Mysticism believed this as well. Some branches of Eastern Orthodoxy still believe in "Toll Houses" that one must pass in order to enter Heaven.

The 1st & 2nd Books of Jeu/Ieou and The Pistis Sophia describe how Jesus instructed the apostles regarding the seals, names, and ciphers (hand-signs) they must use in order to prompt the "watchers" or guardians of the various heavens to open the veils and allow them entry.

In the Gospel of Philip it is said, "The Lord revealed unto me what the soul must say as it goeth up into heaven, and how it must answer each of the powers above." The initiates in [the Acts of John] have entered into the godhead, fused with it. The voice of the mystery god imparts unto them the symbols, the marks of recognition and passwords . . .

In the Apocalypse of Paul, we find the apostle encountering angels at the gate of each of the ten heavens, who open to him because he was accompanied by the Holy Spirit. When he arrived at the seventh heaven, he encountered an old man who interrogated him. The Spirit instructed the apostle, "Give him the sign that you have, and he will open for you.' And then I gave him the sign . . . and then the seventh heaven opened."

Jewish lore has similar beliefs. In Hekalot Rabbati, the adept passes through the seven doors of the seven heavenly temples, past angels whose name he must give, while presenting a seal, in order to enter the presence of God. The names and seals given to the angels are also mentioned in 3 Enoch.

Even the Bible notes (Revelation 21:12- 13) that twelve angels guard the twelve gates of the Heavenly Jerusalem.

The clasping of hands while revealing secrets is known from a number of early documents. In the Second Apocalypse of James, Jesus tells the apostle that he would reveal things to him, then told him "stretch out your [hand]. Now, take hold of me."

"The right hand of fellowship" [dexias koinoas didonai tini] is given "as a sign of friendship and trust." (Galatians 2:9)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]." (Revelation 2:17)

chainmailleman

The fact that you have the ability to become a god goes against all teachings of christianity.

LOL! Did you know that Early Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy, Kenneth Copeland, and various other Sects of Ancient and Modern Christianity (Including Gnostics & Mormons) believe the same thing?

The Early Christian Doctrine of Theosis (Deification):

Interestingly, Early Christianity, the Gnostic Christians, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, various Christian Saints and Christian Mystics, and even several Protestant Churches (Including Kenneth Copeland) believe in the Doctrine of Theosis (Deification). Here is some information I've compiled on this subject from various online sources:

[Begin Quotes]

Jesus Christ in John 10:34-36 was quoting Psalm 82:6: "Ye are gods; and all of you children of the most High." In refution to the Pharisee's accusation that He was a blasphemer for calling himself the Son of God, when we are all children of God, Sons and Daughters of the Most High:

"Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Also of note is that in the Gospel of John, God is refered to as HO THEOS (The God) and we are refered to as THEOI (gods), Images of the Prototype.

To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19). Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23). Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-1 cool . He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippian 2:5,6). Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4). Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21).

1. To become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, being glorified together (Romans 8:14-1 cool

2. As sons (and daughters) of God, to inherit all things that the Father has (Revelation 21:7)

3. To become one with Christ, as Christ is one with the Father (John 17:20-23)

4. To sit with Christ on His throne (Rev. 3:21)

5. To receive a glorified, immortal body like the body that Christ has (Philip. 3:21)

6. To partake of the divine nature and be given all things pertaining to life and godliness, receiving glory (2 Peter 1:3-4)

7. To be made - in some way - like Christ when He returns (1 John 3:2)

8. To be made kings and priests unto God and his Father (Rev. 1:6) As children of God, to become partakers of his holiness (Heb. 12:9-10)

9. To be exalted by God (1 Peter 5:6)

10. To become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect (Matt. 5:4 cool

Theosis (Deification) is an important doctrine of Early Christianity...

Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology from the article titled "Deification":

Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in the image and likeness of God'.... It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g., Ps. 82 (81).6; II Peter 1.4) and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8:9-17; Gal. 4:5-7) and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21-23). The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, 'if the Word has been made man, it is so men may be made gods' (Adv. Haer V, Pref.), and become the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century St Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons 'by participation' (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: 'Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfillment of all times and ages',... and St Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, 'He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face.'...

Finally, it should be noted that deification does not mean absorption into God, since the deified creature remains itself and distinct. It is the whole human being, body and soul, who is transfigured in the Spirit into the likeness of the divine nature, and deification is the goal of every Christian.

(Symeon Lash, "Deification," The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, ed. Alan Richardson and John Bowden, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1983, pp. 147-148.)

Eastern Orthodoxy still retains much of the original Christian doctrine of theosis or deification. Here's a quote from Orthodox writer, Dr. Seth Farber ("The Reign of Augustine," The Christian Activist: A Journal of Orthodox Opinion, Vol. 13, Winter/Spring 1999, pp. 40-45,56):

Eastern Christian theology, Orthodoxy, has not been marred by the misanthropic premises that have been characteristic of Western Christian theology, Roman Catholic and Protestant, for centuries [e.g., the concept that infants are already great sinners worthy of damnation, that man is totally depraved, etc.] From the early Greek fathers to modern Orthodox theologians, one dominant theme has sounded again and again: the purpose of the Incarnation was to make it possible for human beings to be reunited with God, to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). As St. Athanasius put it, "He (the Son of God) became man, that we might become God."

Early Church Fathers:

"If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods." [Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk. 5, pref.]

"Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality." [Irenaeus, Against Heresies,4.38. Cp. 4.11] [(2): "But man receives progression and increase towards God. For God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress toward God."]

Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." [Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1]

"If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.... His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.'" [Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 See also Clement, Stromateis, 23]

Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men were 'made like God, free from suffering and death,' and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest. [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124]

Saint Athanasius - that tireless foe of heresy after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named - also stated his belief in deification: "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." [Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.34]

On another occasion Athanasius stated, "He became man that we might be made divine" [Athanasius, De Inc., 54]

Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." [Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2]

[End Quotes]