Kiritsu
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Kiritsu
Here's some interesting factual data about the LDS Church taht was right after the previously quoted material.
...
At the April 2004 general conference of the LDS Church it was announced that there had been 242,923 convert baptisms in 2003. Significantly, this is the lowest number in the past eight years. The number of converts has been dropping since 1996 and the current number of missionaries has fallen to the level of 1997. The average number of converts per missionary in 1996 was 6.7. In 2003 the average had dropped to 4.3.
...
At the April 2004 general conference of the LDS Church it was announced that there had been 242,923 convert baptisms in 2003. Significantly, this is the lowest number in the past eight years. The number of converts has been dropping since 1996 and the current number of missionaries has fallen to the level of 1997. The average number of converts per missionary in 1996 was 6.7. In 2003 the average had dropped to 4.3.
Did you bother to investigate the reasons behind the decline? Did your research include the fact that in the October 2002 conference, the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints declaired that new rules of missionary qualifications were to be implimented. Members who have had severe medical circumstances at any point in their life were barred from going due to health liabilities, as well as spiritual consern for those who would be doomed to go and fail. Prior to this change, there was a 30% return rate of full-time missionaries due to emotional, mental, or physical illness that reoccured due to the pressures of a mission.
Kiritsu
While the LDS Church publishes the number of converts to the church they refuse to publish the number of people requesting their membership to be terminated or give the percent of active members.
Did you investigate the reasons behind that?
You have to ask yourself, if they are removed from the records, why would the church keep a record of them? Do you know if someone requested that such information be kept out of the public's hands, for the safety of those ex-members who do not wish to be persecuted for their choice? There is a name and detailed records for every single one of those 11,985,254+. This is how the LDS Church operates. If you were a member who requested to be terminated from the records of the church, would you want your name simply moved to another list or would you want your name striken from the records all together?
Kiritsu
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<center>Cardston Temple in Alberta, Canada
one of my favorites!
one of my favorites!
Eteponge
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The LDS Doctrine of "Eternal Progression" and "Attaining Godhood" actually has roots in Early Christianity, Christian Gnosticism, and Eastern Orthodox Christianity. It is known as the Early Christian doctrine of "Theosis". Here is some information I've compiled on this subject from various sources:
[Begin Quotes]
Interestingly, the Gnostic Christians, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, various Christian Saints and Christian Mystics, and even several Protestant Churches (Including Kenneth Copeland) believe in the Doctrine of Theosis (Deification).
Jesus Christ in John 10:34-36 was quoting Psalm 82:6: "Ye are gods; and all of you children of the most High." In refution to the Pharisee's accusation that He was a blasphemer for calling himself the Son of God, when we are all children of God, Sons and Daughters of the Most High:
"Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
Theosis (Deification) is an important doctrine of early Christianity:
Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology from the article titled "Deification":
Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in the image and likeness of God'.... It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g., Ps. 82 (81).6; II Peter 1.4) and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8:9-17; Gal. 4:5-7) and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21-23). The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, 'if the Word has been made man, it is so men may be made gods' (Adv. Haer V, Pref.), and become the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century St Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons 'by participation' (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: 'Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfillment of all times and ages',... and St Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, 'He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face.'...
Finally, it should be noted that deification does not mean absorption into God, since the deified creature remains itself and distinct. It is the whole human being, body and soul, who is transfigured in the Spirit into the likeness of the divine nature, and deification is the goal of every Christian.
(Symeon Lash, "Deification," The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, ed. Alan Richardson and John Bowden, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1983, pp. 147-148.)
To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19). Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23). Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-1 cool . He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippian 2:5,6). Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4). Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21).
1. To become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, being glorified together (Romans 8:14-1 cool
2. As sons (and daughters) of God, to inherit all things that the Father has (Revelation 21:7)
3. To become one with Christ, as Christ is one with the Father (John 17:20-23)
4. To sit with Christ on His throne (Rev. 3:21)
5. To receive a glorified, immortal body like the body that Christ has (Philip. 3:21)
6. To partake of the divine nature and be given all things pertaining to life and godliness, receiving glory (2 Peter 1:3-4)
7. To be made - in some way - like Christ when He returns (1 John 3:2)
8. To be made kings and priests unto God and his Father (Rev. 1:6) As children of God, to become partakers of his holiness (Heb. 12:9-10)
9. To be exalted by God (1 Peter 5:6)
10. To become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect (Matt. 5:4 cool
Eastern Orthodoxy still retains much of the original Christian doctrine of theosis or deification. Here's a quote from Orthodox writer, Dr. Seth Farber ("The Reign of Augustine," The Christian Activist: A Journal of Orthodox Opinion, Vol. 13, Winter/Spring 1999, pp. 40-45,56):
Eastern Christian theology, Orthodoxy, has not been marred by the misanthropic premises that have been characteristic of Western Christian theology, Roman Catholic and Protestant, for centuries [e.g., the concept that infants are already great sinners worthy of damnation, that man is totally depraved, etc.] From the early Greek fathers to modern Orthodox theologians, one dominant theme has sounded again and again: the purpose of the Incarnation was to make it possible for human beings to be reunited with God, to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). As St. Athanasius put it, "He (the Son of God) became man, that we might become God."
Early Church Fathers:
"If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods." [Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk. 5, pref.]
"Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality." [Irenaeus, Against Heresies,4.38. Cp. 4.11] [(2): "But man receives progression and increase towards God. For God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress toward God."]
Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." [Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1]
"If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.... His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.'" [Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 See also Clement, Stromateis, 23]
Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men were 'made like God, free from suffering and death,' and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest. [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124]
Saint Athanasius - that tireless foe of heresy after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named - also stated his belief in deification: "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." [Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.34]
On another occasion Athanasius stated, "He became man that we might be made divine" [Athanasius, De Inc., 54]
Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." [Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2]
Jewish Kabbalah believes in Theosis (Deification):
"God was, by one Kabbalistic recension, Adam Kadmon: the first primordial or archetypal Man. Man shared with God both an intrinsic, uncreated divine spark and a complex, organic form. This strange equation of Adam as God was supported by a Kabbalistic cipher: the numerical value in Hebrew of the names Adam and Jehovah (the Tetragrammaton, Yod he vav he) was both 45. Thus in Kabbalistic exegesis Jehovah equaled Adam: Adam was God. With this affirmation went the assertion that all humankind in highest realization was like God: the two realities shadowed each other."
Christian Gnosticism & Theosis (Deification):
"They were fathers of the third glory according to the independence and the power which was begotten with them, since each one of them individually does not exist so as to give glory in a unitary way to him whom he loves.
They are the first and the second and thus both of them are perfect and full, for they are manifestations of the Father who is perfect and full, as well as of those who came forth, who are perfect by the fact that they glorify the perfect one. The fruit of the third, however, consists of honors of the will of each one of the aeons, and each one of the properties. The Father has power. It exists fully, perfect in the thought which is a product of agreement, since it is a product of the individuality of the aeons. It is this which he loves and over which he has power, as it gives glory to the Father by means of it.
For this reason, they are minds of minds, which are found to be words of words, elders of elders, degrees of degrees, which are exalted above one another. Each one of those who give glory has his place and his exaltation and his dwelling and his rest, which consists of the glory which he brings forth.
All those who glorify the Father have their begetting eternally, - they beget in the act of assisting one another - since the emanations are limitless and immeasurable and since there is no envy on the part of the Father toward those who came forth from him in regard to their begetting something equal or similar to him, since he is the one who exists in the Totalities, begetting and revealing himself. Whomever he wishes, he makes into a father, of whom he in fact is Father, and a god, of whom he in fact is God, and he makes them the Totalities, whose entirety he is." [The Tripartite Tractate] (Discovered among the Nag Hammadi Library in 1945 after being sealed for almost 2000 years)
Joint-Heirs with Jesus Christ:
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image. The bridal chamber and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. Not only must those who produce the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, do so, but have produced them for you. If one does not acquire them, the name ("Christian" wink will also be taken from him. But one receives the unction of the [...] of the power of the cross. This power the apostles called "the right and the left." For this person is no longer a Christian but a Christ." [The Gospel of Philip] (Discovered among the Nag Hammadi Library in 1945 after being sealed for almost 2000 years)
"And the Lord of Glory lowered himself. He separated the matter. He made it into two parts and two lands. And he set boundaries to each land. And he told them that they were from one father and one mother.
And those that fled to him worshipped him. He gave to them the land on the right side of him, and he granted to them eternal life and immortality. And he called (the land) on the right side "the land of life," and that on the left ' "the land of death." ' And he called the land on the right side "the land of light," and that on the left "the land of darkness." ' And he called the land on the right side "the land of rest," and the land on the left "the land of toil." And he set boundaries between them, and veils between them, so that they should not see one another. And he placed watchers upon their veils. And he gave many honours to those who had worshipped him. And he exalted them over those who had opposed him and withstood him. And he spread out the land on the right side into many lands. And he made them each into ranks, and each into aeons, and each into worlds, and each into heavens ', and each into firmaments, and each into heavens, and each into places', and each into places, and each into spaces. And he appointed laws for them. He gave to them commandments: "Abide in my word and I will give to you eternal life". And I will send you powers. And I will strengthen you with spirits of power, and I will give you authority as you will.
And no one will prevent you in what you wish. And you will beget for yourselves aeons and worlds and heavens, (so that) the intelligible spirits come and dwell in them. And you will become gods, and you will know that you are from God, and you will see him, that he is God within you, And he will dwell in your aeon." And the Lord of the All said these words to them. And he withdrew from them and concealed himself from them '." [The Untitled Gnostic Text] (Discovered among the Bruce Codex in 1769 after being sealed since ancient Christianity)
[End Quotes]
Also of note is that in the Gospel of John, God is refered to as HO THEOS (The God) and we are refered to as THEOI (gods), Images of the Prototype.
[Begin Quotes]
Interestingly, the Gnostic Christians, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, various Christian Saints and Christian Mystics, and even several Protestant Churches (Including Kenneth Copeland) believe in the Doctrine of Theosis (Deification).
Jesus Christ in John 10:34-36 was quoting Psalm 82:6: "Ye are gods; and all of you children of the most High." In refution to the Pharisee's accusation that He was a blasphemer for calling himself the Son of God, when we are all children of God, Sons and Daughters of the Most High:
"Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
Theosis (Deification) is an important doctrine of early Christianity:
Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology from the article titled "Deification":
Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in the image and likeness of God'.... It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g., Ps. 82 (81).6; II Peter 1.4) and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8:9-17; Gal. 4:5-7) and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21-23). The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, 'if the Word has been made man, it is so men may be made gods' (Adv. Haer V, Pref.), and become the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century St Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons 'by participation' (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: 'Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfillment of all times and ages',... and St Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, 'He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face.'...
Finally, it should be noted that deification does not mean absorption into God, since the deified creature remains itself and distinct. It is the whole human being, body and soul, who is transfigured in the Spirit into the likeness of the divine nature, and deification is the goal of every Christian.
(Symeon Lash, "Deification," The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, ed. Alan Richardson and John Bowden, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1983, pp. 147-148.)
To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19). Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23). Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-1 cool . He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippian 2:5,6). Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4). Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21).
1. To become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, being glorified together (Romans 8:14-1 cool
2. As sons (and daughters) of God, to inherit all things that the Father has (Revelation 21:7)
3. To become one with Christ, as Christ is one with the Father (John 17:20-23)
4. To sit with Christ on His throne (Rev. 3:21)
5. To receive a glorified, immortal body like the body that Christ has (Philip. 3:21)
6. To partake of the divine nature and be given all things pertaining to life and godliness, receiving glory (2 Peter 1:3-4)
7. To be made - in some way - like Christ when He returns (1 John 3:2)
8. To be made kings and priests unto God and his Father (Rev. 1:6) As children of God, to become partakers of his holiness (Heb. 12:9-10)
9. To be exalted by God (1 Peter 5:6)
10. To become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect (Matt. 5:4 cool
Eastern Orthodoxy still retains much of the original Christian doctrine of theosis or deification. Here's a quote from Orthodox writer, Dr. Seth Farber ("The Reign of Augustine," The Christian Activist: A Journal of Orthodox Opinion, Vol. 13, Winter/Spring 1999, pp. 40-45,56):
Eastern Christian theology, Orthodoxy, has not been marred by the misanthropic premises that have been characteristic of Western Christian theology, Roman Catholic and Protestant, for centuries [e.g., the concept that infants are already great sinners worthy of damnation, that man is totally depraved, etc.] From the early Greek fathers to modern Orthodox theologians, one dominant theme has sounded again and again: the purpose of the Incarnation was to make it possible for human beings to be reunited with God, to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). As St. Athanasius put it, "He (the Son of God) became man, that we might become God."
Early Church Fathers:
"If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods." [Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk. 5, pref.]
"Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality." [Irenaeus, Against Heresies,4.38. Cp. 4.11] [(2): "But man receives progression and increase towards God. For God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress toward God."]
Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." [Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1]
"If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.... His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.'" [Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 See also Clement, Stromateis, 23]
Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men were 'made like God, free from suffering and death,' and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest. [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124]
Saint Athanasius - that tireless foe of heresy after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named - also stated his belief in deification: "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." [Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.34]
On another occasion Athanasius stated, "He became man that we might be made divine" [Athanasius, De Inc., 54]
Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." [Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2]
Jewish Kabbalah believes in Theosis (Deification):
"God was, by one Kabbalistic recension, Adam Kadmon: the first primordial or archetypal Man. Man shared with God both an intrinsic, uncreated divine spark and a complex, organic form. This strange equation of Adam as God was supported by a Kabbalistic cipher: the numerical value in Hebrew of the names Adam and Jehovah (the Tetragrammaton, Yod he vav he) was both 45. Thus in Kabbalistic exegesis Jehovah equaled Adam: Adam was God. With this affirmation went the assertion that all humankind in highest realization was like God: the two realities shadowed each other."
Christian Gnosticism & Theosis (Deification):
"They were fathers of the third glory according to the independence and the power which was begotten with them, since each one of them individually does not exist so as to give glory in a unitary way to him whom he loves.
They are the first and the second and thus both of them are perfect and full, for they are manifestations of the Father who is perfect and full, as well as of those who came forth, who are perfect by the fact that they glorify the perfect one. The fruit of the third, however, consists of honors of the will of each one of the aeons, and each one of the properties. The Father has power. It exists fully, perfect in the thought which is a product of agreement, since it is a product of the individuality of the aeons. It is this which he loves and over which he has power, as it gives glory to the Father by means of it.
For this reason, they are minds of minds, which are found to be words of words, elders of elders, degrees of degrees, which are exalted above one another. Each one of those who give glory has his place and his exaltation and his dwelling and his rest, which consists of the glory which he brings forth.
All those who glorify the Father have their begetting eternally, - they beget in the act of assisting one another - since the emanations are limitless and immeasurable and since there is no envy on the part of the Father toward those who came forth from him in regard to their begetting something equal or similar to him, since he is the one who exists in the Totalities, begetting and revealing himself. Whomever he wishes, he makes into a father, of whom he in fact is Father, and a god, of whom he in fact is God, and he makes them the Totalities, whose entirety he is." [The Tripartite Tractate] (Discovered among the Nag Hammadi Library in 1945 after being sealed for almost 2000 years)
Joint-Heirs with Jesus Christ:
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image. The bridal chamber and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. Not only must those who produce the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, do so, but have produced them for you. If one does not acquire them, the name ("Christian" wink will also be taken from him. But one receives the unction of the [...] of the power of the cross. This power the apostles called "the right and the left." For this person is no longer a Christian but a Christ." [The Gospel of Philip] (Discovered among the Nag Hammadi Library in 1945 after being sealed for almost 2000 years)
"And the Lord of Glory lowered himself. He separated the matter. He made it into two parts and two lands. And he set boundaries to each land. And he told them that they were from one father and one mother.
And those that fled to him worshipped him. He gave to them the land on the right side of him, and he granted to them eternal life and immortality. And he called (the land) on the right side "the land of life," and that on the left ' "the land of death." ' And he called the land on the right side "the land of light," and that on the left "the land of darkness." ' And he called the land on the right side "the land of rest," and the land on the left "the land of toil." And he set boundaries between them, and veils between them, so that they should not see one another. And he placed watchers upon their veils. And he gave many honours to those who had worshipped him. And he exalted them over those who had opposed him and withstood him. And he spread out the land on the right side into many lands. And he made them each into ranks, and each into aeons, and each into worlds, and each into heavens ', and each into firmaments, and each into heavens, and each into places', and each into places, and each into spaces. And he appointed laws for them. He gave to them commandments: "Abide in my word and I will give to you eternal life". And I will send you powers. And I will strengthen you with spirits of power, and I will give you authority as you will.
And no one will prevent you in what you wish. And you will beget for yourselves aeons and worlds and heavens, (so that) the intelligible spirits come and dwell in them. And you will become gods, and you will know that you are from God, and you will see him, that he is God within you, And he will dwell in your aeon." And the Lord of the All said these words to them. And he withdrew from them and concealed himself from them '." [The Untitled Gnostic Text] (Discovered among the Bruce Codex in 1769 after being sealed since ancient Christianity)
[End Quotes]
Also of note is that in the Gospel of John, God is refered to as HO THEOS (The God) and we are refered to as THEOI (gods), Images of the Prototype.
Kiritsu
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- Posted: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:30:08 +0000
You do your work Eteponge, I give you credit for that. Uff, that was long...
Eteponge
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Kiritsu
You do your work Eteponge, I give you credit for that. Uff, that was long...
Of course, the "God was Once a Man" doctrine is bunk. Theosis is "Partaking of the Divine Nature" and becoming True THEOI Images of God the Prototype while still being subject to God, being Glorified together with Jesus Christ, we become a part of God but God is still seperate and above us yet within us. That is the Early Christian Doctrine of Theosis. The Eastern Orthodox Churches still teach it and have taught it since Early Christianity, and some Protestant Churches teach it (Such as Kenneth Copeland) and of course Gnostic Christianity teaches it and the Early Church Fathers taught it.
Eteponge
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P.S. The "God was once a Man" comes from a misinterpretation of the Adam Kadmon Doctrine of certain Jewish Kabbalists.
"God was, by one Kabbalistic recension, Adam Kadmon: the first primordial or archetypal Man. Man shared with God both an intrinsic, uncreated divine spark and a complex, organic form. This strange equation of Adam as God was supported by a Kabbalistic cipher: the numerical value in Hebrew of the names Adam and Jehovah (the Tetragrammaton, Yod he vav he) was both 45. Thus in Kabbalistic exegesis Jehovah equaled Adam: Adam was God. With this affirmation went the assertion that all humankind in highest realization was like God: the two realities shadowed each other."
This doctrine is not saying that the Human Being Adam is God, but that God himself is metaphorically the "Adam" (Prototype) of Humanity who are His Images.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were familiar with Jewish Kabbalah Theology and misinterpreted this doctrine up the wazoo to form the "God was once a man" Theology.
"God was, by one Kabbalistic recension, Adam Kadmon: the first primordial or archetypal Man. Man shared with God both an intrinsic, uncreated divine spark and a complex, organic form. This strange equation of Adam as God was supported by a Kabbalistic cipher: the numerical value in Hebrew of the names Adam and Jehovah (the Tetragrammaton, Yod he vav he) was both 45. Thus in Kabbalistic exegesis Jehovah equaled Adam: Adam was God. With this affirmation went the assertion that all humankind in highest realization was like God: the two realities shadowed each other."
This doctrine is not saying that the Human Being Adam is God, but that God himself is metaphorically the "Adam" (Prototype) of Humanity who are His Images.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were familiar with Jewish Kabbalah Theology and misinterpreted this doctrine up the wazoo to form the "God was once a man" Theology.
Kiritsu
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Okomikeruko
Kiritsu
Here's some interesting factual data about the LDS Church taht was right after the previously quoted material.
...
At the April 2004 general conference of the LDS Church it was announced that there had been 242,923 convert baptisms in 2003. Significantly, this is the lowest number in the past eight years. The number of converts has been dropping since 1996 and the current number of missionaries has fallen to the level of 1997. The average number of converts per missionary in 1996 was 6.7. In 2003 the average had dropped to 4.3.
...
At the April 2004 general conference of the LDS Church it was announced that there had been 242,923 convert baptisms in 2003. Significantly, this is the lowest number in the past eight years. The number of converts has been dropping since 1996 and the current number of missionaries has fallen to the level of 1997. The average number of converts per missionary in 1996 was 6.7. In 2003 the average had dropped to 4.3.
Did you bother to investigate the reasons behind the decline? Did your research include the fact that in the October 2002 conference, the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints declaired that new rules of missionary qualifications were to be implimented. Members who have had severe medical circumstances at any point in their life were barred from going due to health liabilities, as well as spiritual consern for those who would be doomed to go and fail. Prior to this change, there was a 30% return rate of full-time missionaries due to emotional, mental, or physical illness that reoccured due to the pressures of a mission.
So the numbers flux due to this and that. What's the big deal? I sure don't see one. You seem to think I'm trying to say Mormonism is on the decline. As odd as it may sound, I reall hope not. I'm merely reporting interesting facts as quoted from the SLC Messenger.
Kiritsu
While the LDS Church publishes the number of converts to the church they refuse to publish the number of people requesting their membership to be terminated or give the percent of active members.
Quote:
Did you investigate the reasons behind that?
You have to ask yourself, if they are removed from the records, why would the church keep a record of them? Do you know if someone requested that such information be kept out of the public's hands, for the safety of those ex-members who do not wish to be persecuted for their choice? There is a name and detailed records for every single one of those 11,985,254+. This is how the LDS Church operates. If you were a member who requested to be terminated from the records of the church, would you want your name simply moved to another list or would you want your name striken from the records all together?
You have to ask yourself, if they are removed from the records, why would the church keep a record of them? Do you know if someone requested that such information be kept out of the public's hands, for the safety of those ex-members who do not wish to be persecuted for their choice? There is a name and detailed records for every single one of those 11,985,254+. This is how the LDS Church operates. If you were a member who requested to be terminated from the records of the church, would you want your name simply moved to another list or would you want your name striken from the records all together?
I'm not sure I understand what you were getting at there. To answer the last question, I suppose if I were requesting that my name be removed from the Church records, then it would be to have it striken altogether.
Do you know if someone requested that such information be kept out of the public's hands, for the safety of those ex-members who do not wish to be persecuted for their choice?
What? That isn't a coherent sentence to me. Let's see...Information be kept from the public for the ex-mormon's safety so they won't be persecuted [by the public(?)] for leaving the Church..? Yea right.
And to answer the one's you didn't address... The Church doesn't report the number of people requesting termination probably because, if the public saw how many thousands leave the church on a yearly basis, they might think there was something wrong with it. The percentage of active members is not released either due to similar reasons: The LDS Church is very PR conscious and the fact that over half, I believe, of Mormons are inactive would not help the church's image any.
That's the way I see it.
Kiritsu
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- Posted: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:47:35 +0000
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P.S. The "God was once a Man" comes from a misinterpretation of the Adam Kadmon Doctrine of certain Jewish Kabbalists.
"God was, by one Kabbalistic recension, Adam Kadmon: the first primordial or archetypal Man. Man shared with God both an intrinsic, uncreated divine spark and a complex, organic form. This strange equation of Adam as God was supported by a Kabbalistic cipher: the numerical value in Hebrew of the names Adam and Jehovah (the Tetragrammaton, Yod he vav he) was both 45. Thus in Kabbalistic exegesis Jehovah equaled Adam: Adam was God. With this affirmation went the assertion that all humankind in highest realization was like God: the two realities shadowed each other."
This doctrine is not saying that the Human Being Adam is God, but that God himself is metaphorically the "Adam" (Prototype) of Humanity who are His Images.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were familiar with Jewish Kabbalah Theology and misinterpreted this doctrine up the wazoo to form the "God was once a man" Theology.
"God was, by one Kabbalistic recension, Adam Kadmon: the first primordial or archetypal Man. Man shared with God both an intrinsic, uncreated divine spark and a complex, organic form. This strange equation of Adam as God was supported by a Kabbalistic cipher: the numerical value in Hebrew of the names Adam and Jehovah (the Tetragrammaton, Yod he vav he) was both 45. Thus in Kabbalistic exegesis Jehovah equaled Adam: Adam was God. With this affirmation went the assertion that all humankind in highest realization was like God: the two realities shadowed each other."
This doctrine is not saying that the Human Being Adam is God, but that God himself is metaphorically the "Adam" (Prototype) of Humanity who are His Images.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were familiar with Jewish Kabbalah Theology and misinterpreted this doctrine up the wazoo to form the "God was once a man" Theology.
Thanks for the background info on that. That's something I hadn't been very aware of.
Okomikeruko
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Actually, I think it's more like 70%, but I'm not sure on that one.
Forgive typos. It's late. Let me try to reword that sentance.
Retype: If someone requested that such information be kept out of the public's hands simply for the safety of those ex-members, so that they do not become persecuted for their choice, isn't that their choice?
Anyway, it seemed that stating the facts in the manner you did seemed to leave context out, which could be misinterpreted or construed to propoganda. I'm not a fan of propoganda. And I do appologize if I misinterpreted your intentions.
Forgive typos. It's late. Let me try to reword that sentance.
Retype: If someone requested that such information be kept out of the public's hands simply for the safety of those ex-members, so that they do not become persecuted for their choice, isn't that their choice?
Anyway, it seemed that stating the facts in the manner you did seemed to leave context out, which could be misinterpreted or construed to propoganda. I'm not a fan of propoganda. And I do appologize if I misinterpreted your intentions.
Kiritsu
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Okomikeruko
Actually, I think it's more like 70%, but I'm not sure on that one.
Forgive typos. It's late. Let me try to reword that sentance.
Retype: If someone requested that such information be kept out of the public's hands simply for the safety of those ex-members, so that they do not become persecuted for their choice, isn't that their choice?
Anyway, it seemed that stating the facts in the manner you did seemed to leave context out, which could be misinterpreted or construed to propoganda. I'm not a fan of propoganda. And I do appologize if I misinterpreted your intentions.
Forgive typos. It's late. Let me try to reword that sentance.
Retype: If someone requested that such information be kept out of the public's hands simply for the safety of those ex-members, so that they do not become persecuted for their choice, isn't that their choice?
Anyway, it seemed that stating the facts in the manner you did seemed to leave context out, which could be misinterpreted or construed to propoganda. I'm not a fan of propoganda. And I do appologize if I misinterpreted your intentions.
I still dont understand who's going to be persecuted for leaving the Church and by whom. The public certainly isn't going to. And what's this about keeping information out of the public's hands? What I was quoting referred to removing one's name and record from the Church's files, nothing to do with giving information to the public, other than the numbers of people doing so, which would reveal nothing about individual members. *shrug* Anyway...
Darkslider
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Okomikeruko
Retype: If someone requested that such information be kept out of the public's hands simply for the safety of those ex-members, so that they do not become persecuted for their choice, isn't that their choice?
You may want to retype that again. Kiritsu isn't saying that they read off a list of everyone's names. Nor would the Church do that. If the Church were to send out, as part of their census report, "400,000 people requested to have their names removed from the membership records. Please note, this does not include the half million people we ex-communicated before they could ask us to remove them from our records." it would have a detrimental effect on their population. People might stop to think, "Now, why would half a million people leave the church?" Not that it would be a bad thing, in my opinion. It makes you wonder, at least I do, what is it that the church is hiding?
Keene Maverick
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- Posted: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:45:35 +0000
Dragonwarrior_Keltyr
sheehandan
Hikagekun
Oh give it up! When will you decide to live and be happy without trying to "expose the secret truths of the mormons".
Miss Nanooki I suggest if you have any questions go to your Bishop or teacher. You will find little truth here.
Miss Nanooki I suggest if you have any questions go to your Bishop or teacher. You will find little truth here.
Sayeth the pwned mormon, who could not even answer a few simple questions.
Just once, ONCE, I would like to see a Mormon rely on actual historic sources, rather than wishy washy feelings and improvable testimonies. My own uncle, who in his arguments cited amazing sources, suddenly comes up empty when asked to produce these sources.
You fail.
let me ask you sometihng....do you beleive in love?
.... How is that a reliable historic source?
Keene Maverick
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- Posted: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:56:00 +0000
Kiritsu
Here's some interesting factual data about the LDS Church taht was right after the previously quoted material.
<center>Facts on the Mormon Church</center>
In 1830 six men met to organize the Church of Christ, later renamed The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (see D&C 15:3-5). At the end of 2003 the LDS Church claimed 11,985,254 members with 56,237 missionaries.
The LDS Church operates 116 temples throughout the world. Even though there are less than 200,000 Mormons in all of Africa, the Mormons have just dedicated their second temple on the continent. They have one is South Africa and a new one in Ghana. Another is under construction in Nigeria.
Below is a breakdown of the LDS membership as of December 31, 2002 by areas, from the official LDS website, www.lds.org.
Membership Distribution (31 December 2002)
United States - 5,410,544
Canada - 163,666
Mexico - 952,947
Caribbean - 129,776
South America - 2,738,037
Central America - 503,857
South Pacific - 381,458
Europe - 426,944
Asia - 825,997
Africa - 188,322
At the April 2004 general conference of the LDS Church it was announced that there had been 242,923 convert baptisms in 2003. Significantly, this is the lowest number in the past eight years. The number of converts has been dropping since 1996 and the current number of missionaries has fallen to the level of 1997. The average number of converts per missionary in 1996 was 6.7. In 2003 the average had dropped to 4.3.
While the LDS Church publishes the number of converts to the church they refuse to publish the number of people requesting their membership to be terminated or give the percent of active members.
<center>Facts on the Mormon Church</center>
In 1830 six men met to organize the Church of Christ, later renamed The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (see D&C 15:3-5). At the end of 2003 the LDS Church claimed 11,985,254 members with 56,237 missionaries.
The LDS Church operates 116 temples throughout the world. Even though there are less than 200,000 Mormons in all of Africa, the Mormons have just dedicated their second temple on the continent. They have one is South Africa and a new one in Ghana. Another is under construction in Nigeria.
Below is a breakdown of the LDS membership as of December 31, 2002 by areas, from the official LDS website, www.lds.org.
Membership Distribution (31 December 2002)
United States - 5,410,544
Canada - 163,666
Mexico - 952,947
Caribbean - 129,776
South America - 2,738,037
Central America - 503,857
South Pacific - 381,458
Europe - 426,944
Asia - 825,997
Africa - 188,322
At the April 2004 general conference of the LDS Church it was announced that there had been 242,923 convert baptisms in 2003. Significantly, this is the lowest number in the past eight years. The number of converts has been dropping since 1996 and the current number of missionaries has fallen to the level of 1997. The average number of converts per missionary in 1996 was 6.7. In 2003 the average had dropped to 4.3.
While the LDS Church publishes the number of converts to the church they refuse to publish the number of people requesting their membership to be terminated or give the percent of active members.
xd 3nodding
I've been looking for a good source on that for a long while.
AutumnFalls89
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- Posted: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:53:50 +0000
Kiritsu
<center>Cardston Temple in Alberta, Canada
one of my favorites!
one of my favorites!
yes I live near cardston and that's the temple I visit often. It's gorgeous 3nodding I can't wait to see the SAlt Lake temple though biggrin