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Natas Ferret
Deep Vermillion
The one must wonder why it's a recurring theme or idea throughout history.
To be honest, I think it's rather common knowledge that the Flat Earth Society is full of rather ignorant blow-hards. Who seem to have nothing better to do, than claim Australia doesn't exist.


And then there is the Inner Earth society. Even in the face of blatant knowledge in something, some people will deny it.
Elder Spawn
Every culture, aside from hedonistic ones in their deaththroes, (like this culture, or the Greco-Romans), have belief in some greater beings. So unless humanity's culture is genetic, than how would you explain how all cultures have some sort of religion?


I realy hate this argument. For one thing, while monotheistic societies in the now ARE in the majority, they are far from the only game in town. Many branches of Buddhism, for example, don't believe in any sort of deity. Furthermore, if you are going to use the "most people believe(d) in X. Therefore X must be true!" argument you'd have to swing more towards a pantheistic system. For most of known history man has believed in MANY gods, with MANY widely varrying creation stories. If god/creation was engrained in the mind then wouldn't all cultures have come to a "one god" conclusion? Instead most have come to the "many gods" conclusion including the messopotamians, myans, norsemen, celts, greeks, shintos, some branches of buddhism, egyptians, hindus, babelonians, and MOST African tribes through this day.

So if majority belief is proof of truth, then pantheism must be true now shouldn't it? See how flakey this idea is?

And where is this gene located on DNA anyways? How has it survived natural selection and what is it's selection benifit that keeps it in the gene pool? What does it even DO specifically? No one has ever proven this to be the case.

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Yeah except we point to creation as evidence of our beliefs, we point our miracles and other sort of events. The thing is, evidence can be viewed from different perspectives and disbelieved for it. Even if someone had "concrete" evidence of the existance of dieties, someone else would claim its not proof of it. Thats why no one tries to proof it. They just believe it.


What "evidence"? Last I checked the creation theory of the big bang was the one supported by the facts along with evolution and abiogenisis as explanations of the origins of life. How the hell is that evidence?

Is there a place we can look in the sky and find god?

Most "proof" I have seen has been painfully inadequit. Statues crying blood and cheese sandwiches with the face of the virgin marry are not proof. For proof you need something objective that can be repeatably tested in a reliable way. So no, you CAN'T prove god. That's why it's called faith. Stop pretending otherwise!

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You can't prove that killing is wrong. Or right. So why do we make laws against it? Because we believe its wrong. Proof of anything isn't the point. Its the belief in something. We all believe slavery is wrong. And thus its outlawed. Can you prove slavery is wrong? Or killing? There's no concrete evidence saying its right or wrong. Proving anything is not my point. My point is -in my opinion, because this whole place is about opinions, and communicating opinions (and beliefs, even anti-beliefs), I am going to express my belief- people who deny all existance of dieties are mentally incompetent.


Actually, if you'd ever bothered to read philosophy or look at lawmaking you can see that it's VERY easy to make moral judgements without a holy text. You look at the consequences and make the decission that will make the most people hapy for the longest time. Jailing murderers is just good sense as leaving them loose puts the population as a whole at risk. Can we ever be 100% sure that a law is perfect? No. But we can be 80 or 90% sure. And then we can take surveys of the consequences and change the laws as needed. Something impossible to do with religious docterine.

See? Morality without religion!

And if you'll look to Afganistan you'll see that the people that DO use holy texts as law about to execute one of your fellow christians for simply changing faiths to christianity.

Funny, If the country was secular they could actually DEBATE the law...

Odd how that works out isn't it?
Elder Spawn
o one is born thinking "I disbelief"
You're right, they're born with a soft-atheist mindset: I lack a belief.

Elder Spawn
but all people are born with the feeling that there is something more than humanity.
I don't ever recall having thought that, as a child.
Granted, I don't recall much of being a child, anymore. But, I'm pretty sure metaphysical deities were not among my childhood thoughts.

Elder Spawn
The disbelief is brought on by how they were raised and what they've experienced.
Disbelief is also asserting a claim. Which you will want to keep in mind was not my assertion, but was that of Poll Central's.
Well whatever. I've expressed my believes, and had them expressed againsted. In the end its all perspective. Which is my perspective, and I need sleep, so whatever. rolleyes
Elder Spawn
Well whatever. I've expressed my believes, and had them expressed againsted. In the end its all perspective. Which is my perspective, and I need sleep, so whatever. rolleyes
And alas, he leaves without having realized that he had posted in Extended Discussion and not Extended Sit In A Circle And Share Your Beliefs.
Elder Spawn
They're beliefs, I'm not saying any are right or wrong.
But that one is "a little bit mentally incompetent" if one disagrees with the majority?

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I am just saying. Religion is a fundamental aspect of human existance. Thus denial of any sort of outside, otherhuman consciousness, is against what all humans are like. No one is born thinking "I disbelief" but all people are born with the feeling that there is something more than humanity. The disbelief is brought on by how they were raised and what they've experienced.
Wrong.

All humans are born atheists, and depending on how they're raised become religous or don't.

Were you a Christian before your parents (or whatever other outside source) told you about God? Of course not.

Natas Ferret
To be honest, I think it's rather common knowledge that the Flat Earth Society is full of rather ignorant blow-hards. Who seem to have nothing better to do, than claim Australia doesn't exist.
But if the majority believes something, it must be right...!
Elder Spawn
chibiartstudios
Congradulations. You just proved everything in the study. Feel proud.

Seriously though, It's crap like this that people like me have to put up with every damn day.

Where the ******** do you get off thinking that I am any less of a person because I demand proof before I believe in god/ghosts/scientology/angels/etc!?

How would you feel if I said "You know! I kind if agree with the idea that Christians don't make good witnesses. Their belief in things with no real proof whatsoever must make them at least A LITTLE mentally incompetent!"

Starting to see why that pissed me off so bad?

Let me explain something to you. Atheists are just as moral as you or me (I'm agnostic myself. I happen to agree with you in that you can't prove the nonexisence of something as poorly defined as god). More so in some cases because, unlike most christians whom just show up on sundays and have never actually picked up the bible, they have actually put alot of thought into their belief rather than just taking what their parent's told them on faith. Beleive it or not you CAN come to rational conclisions on issues of morality and ethics without needing the bible/koran. You just need a good head and the right intentions. Atheists arent just people "mad at god" (and yes! I have heard them characterized like that) Many are scientists whose studies have dissproved FAR too much of biblical creed to take the idea seriosly. Others are fans of philosophy, others just free thinkers. You can't pigionhole us that easilly. We come in FAR too many varieties for you to do that.

And last time I checked it was christians/muslims/other religions that did most of the killing in the world. I've NEVER heard of an atheist killing someone because his lack of faith in god commanded him to do it.

So let me ask you and all the other christians whom seem to have their heads up their asses a few questions:

1) What study showed that Atheists where any more or less mentally sound than religious folks?

2) Why is it any less valid to believe that what isn't seen doesn't exist than to believe in something that can't be seen and may not exist?

3) What difference is there between taking an atheist off the wittness stand because you think he's incompetent and taking a jewish person off the stand because you think he's too greedy and will be bought off?

4) HOW is 3% of the population that isn't even all that vocal going to do damage in any way shape or form to a country that is doing a fine job of damaging itself as it is?

5) What would be the horrible fallout if, say, 70% of the population of the world eventually beacame Atheist? Prove your claims please.

(sorry if I sound bitter, I've put up with alot of bullcrap over this and have a short temper when it comes to this. That and it's 2:30am)


That's the thing though, I have no beef with the nonbelievers. I pity them honestly, their lives are hollow from my perspective.
I'm not saying athiests are a threat to any society, I just think that the belief in the concept of anti-God/dieties, is dumb, and you'd have to be a little off to believe in it. This is just my belief. It's just as valid a belief as your belief against dieties.

You and Natas are failing to graps my point. Which is that this whole FORUM is not about proving anything. And if you try to prove something, on a forum, dedicated to RELIGION, you fail by default as Religion, and morality are not things you prove with logic or facts. They are beliefs. If I believe something. I believe it. There's no right or wrong about it. Its all perspectives. This forums about expressing believes, not proving them. Its not a debate. Its not an arguement. If you're trying to sway someone, you're wasting your time.
Its about expression. Expressing how one views whatever the subject may be. Not claiming someone is right or wrong, or that someone can be better at expressing a belief than someone else.


First off, [******** you! I find your pitty condecending and aarogant and you can kiss my a**.

Petty (I'm man enough to admit it!) name calling asside....

Second I'm not trying to persuade people, I'm defending my beliefs. Same as you. It's extended discussion. So let's discuss!

And it's NOT off to believe that belief in things that oppise the natural law of the world are wrong are flawed. Science has yet to see a single incidence of something breaking natural law. Science WILL occasionally change it's beleifs to incorporate new phenomenon. But that doesn't make new phenomenon supernatural. Just yet to be explained. So far, we've done a pretty good job explaining away many huge sperstitions held by religion (world being round anyone?).

And you CAN reason out and test and prove morality. You impose a law first. Let's say seatbelts to keep things simple. Then you do a survey to see if a signifficant number of lives where saved. If the law works without serious side effects (like violating the constitution or human rights) you keep it. It's not perfect, but it works pretty well all things considdered. My point is that you don't NEED religion for morality.

So for christ's sake woman! Stop saying we're off! It's not THAT outrageous of a belief system to have!

Doesn't the bible say "judge not" somewhere in it!? Yeesh!
Natas Ferret
chibiartstudios
And last time I checked it was christians/muslims/other religions that did most of the killing in the world. I've NEVER heard of an atheist killing someone because his lack of faith in god commanded him to do it.
Apparently, you've never heard of Stalin.

Stalin was an a*****e, Proof he killed because he was an athiest, please?
Elder Spawn
Deep Vermillion
Elder Spawn
Every culture, aside from hedonistic ones in their deaththroes, (like this culture, or the Greco-Romans), have belief in some greater beings. So unless humanity's culture is genetic, than how would you explain how all cultures have some sort of religion?
Just about every culture, aside from ones in their supposed death-throees (like ours), have believed that the earth is flat and that women are worth less than men.

Do you also agree with this? After all, the majority did.


Actually those are just some ancient ones. There are plenty of cultures that believe or did believe that women had just as much worth. The Mayans and the Greeks both knew the Earth was round, and other's just didn't bother to think about it.

Really, Middle Age and Dark age christianity fits that bill. None the less the majority of culture did believe in male superiority.
Elder Spawn
Deep Vermillion
Elder Spawn
Actually those are just some ancient ones.
Oh yeah?

Is that why equality is flourishing in America?

Hey, know what the Bible says about it?

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There are plenty of cultures that believe or did believe that women had just as much worth. The Mayans and the Greeks both knew the Earth was round, and other's just didn't bother to think about it.
I thought we already established that cultures in their death-throes didn't count.

And as for those that didn't bother to think about it, they count as being ignorant of it as well.

I'd say that it's pretty clearly established that the majority of cultures and civilizations throughout the history of humanity have been against equality, have been ignorant of science we consider fundamental and have been far less advanced than us in fields such as psychology, sociology and technology. I assume that since - according to you - anyone that doesn't adhere to the principles of the majority is (and I quote) "a little bit mentally incompetent", you disagree with such newfangled ideas as well.

Also, you brought up that slavery was supposedly wrong. Again, that's hardly a belief shared by history as a whole.


They're beliefs, I'm not saying any are right or wrong. I am just saying. Religion is a fundamental aspect of human existance. Thus denial of any sort of outside, otherhuman consciousness, is against what all humans are like. No one is born thinking "I disbelief" but all people are born with the feeling that there is something more than humanity. The disbelief is brought on by how they were raised and what they've experienced.

I disagree, I never thought about anything about the supernatural as a child. I was never (literally) exposed to the supernatural as a kid. The first encounter of the supernatural I got was in Catholic Primary school, and for some reason it just didn't stick.
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because I demand proof before I believe in god/ghosts/scientology/angels/etc!?

http://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-real.html
David-Batista
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because I demand proof before I believe in god/ghosts/scientology/angels/etc!?

http://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-real.html
Wow...so many fallancies concentrated in such a small place.
David-Batista
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because I demand proof before I believe in god/ghosts/scientology/angels/etc!?

http://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-real.html


Proof of god comes from a book written by ancient people?
That makes no sense.
You don't cite a source with itself.
Elder Spawn
Deep Vermillion
Elder Spawn
Actually those are just some ancient ones.
Oh yeah?

Is that why equality is flourishing in America?

Hey, know what the Bible says about it?

Quote:
There are plenty of cultures that believe or did believe that women had just as much worth. The Mayans and the Greeks both knew the Earth was round, and other's just didn't bother to think about it.
I thought we already established that cultures in their death-throes didn't count.

And as for those that didn't bother to think about it, they count as being ignorant of it as well.

I'd say that it's pretty clearly established that the majority of cultures and civilizations throughout the history of humanity have been against equality, have been ignorant of science we consider fundamental and have been far less advanced than us in fields such as psychology, sociology and technology. I assume that since - according to you - anyone that doesn't adhere to the principles of the majority is (and I quote) "a little bit mentally incompetent", you disagree with such newfangled ideas as well.

Also, you brought up that slavery was supposedly wrong. Again, that's hardly a belief shared by history as a whole.


They're beliefs, I'm not saying any are right or wrong. I am just saying. Religion is a fundamental aspect of human existance. Thus denial of any sort of outside, otherhuman consciousness, is against what all humans are like. No one is born thinking "I disbelief" but all people are born with the feeling that there is something more than humanity. The disbelief is brought on by how they were raised and what they've experienced.


No we aren't, I wasn't.
Its a simple drive to explain the unexplained.
Its how a sentinent species makes sense of a world so much bigger than us.
That dosen't communicate to Gods at all.
Axioma
David-Batista
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because I demand proof before I believe in god/ghosts/scientology/angels/etc!?

http://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-real.html
Wow...so many fallancies concentrated in such a small place.


Damn! Beat me to it!

At least it's not wordy...

But to summarize:

1) As mentioned, you can't probe the validity of the bible by citing the bible!

2) There is no evidence for the watchmaker argument. If the world is a machine then what does the machine do? Christians then fall back on the "well god is unknowable" argument. Well if that's the case then how do you KNOW the earth has purpose? Not to mention all of the evidence of anatomy that makes no sense outside of an evolutionary point of view.

3) See above for arguments on why believing in what the majority beleives in SIMPLY because the majority believes it is idiotic.

4) Show me scientific proof that not only was Jesus real (possible), but that he was without a doubt the son of god.

5) This person still didn't address the point where I asked why it's so bad to ask for proof before investing belief.

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