Christians in Gaia

[CH1Y0]

Hepzeba

CH1Y0

Hepzeba

Nemesis Erinys

CH1Y0

niquesamere

your story is so convoluted that you have to engage in prevarication to defend it. jesus didn't fulfill the messianic prophesies ask any jew why they don't worship jesus. and if jesus doesn't need to be worshiped he could have fooled me because the new testament says if you don't do it you go to hell.

the logical holes in this story are gaping. god sacrifices himself to himself to save everyone from himself.

If someone were lying to you wouldn't they try to produce a logical story though?

If we're supposed to believe a story just because it's illogical, what about aliens abducting people and probing them? Or bigfoot? Or psychic ghosts? Or the Earth is held up on the back of a giant turtle? Really, insert your own myth here.

This goes back to one of the earlier posts about the blood of the martyrs. Many converts to Jesus' disciples were killed in hideous ways. They were given opportunities to back out by simply denouncing their faith and worshiping the Roman pantheon, but they refused knowing the horrible deaths they were about to face.

Augustine put an end to that nonsense though.

Interesting. What did St. Augustine do? He defined "just war." What did he write, say or do with regard to the deaths of the early Christians?

He condemned the martyrs, dying and being holy is very much opposed to a founding church.

[RyoSW]

CH1Y0

RyoSW

niquesamere

CH1Y0

Advanced means too many different things for it to be best used in this situation.

civilized is a comparative term. the fact is people know more today. that's not in dispute.

RyoSW says:



Civilized does not mean intelligent. In fact, barbarians used to be damn brilliant. They were only barbarians because they weren't either Greek or Romans. X.x Sorry.

Who are you challenging with this?

RyoSW says:



Niquesamere, sorry if that wasn't clear.

[CH1Y0]

Hepzeba

CH1Y0

niquesamere

CH1Y0

Advanced means too many different things for it to be best used in this situation.

civilized is a comparative term. the fact is people know more today. that's not in dispute.

Yet there is more to know within any one sphere. Further more who specifically do we refer to?
Of course civilised is a comparitive term, that's why I used it in comparisson, advanced however is ambiguous and hence less apt.

Does civilization have to do with literacy and govenment organization?

I'ld say yay to the latter and nay to the former. Plato's republic is the ideal.

[Iconoclast Enthusiast]

Hepzeba

CH1Y0

niquesamere

CH1Y0

Advanced means too many different things for it to be best used in this situation.

civilized is a comparative term. the fact is people know more today. that's not in dispute.

Yet there is more to know within any one sphere. Further more who specifically do we refer to?
Of course civilised is a comparitive term, that's why I used it in comparisson, advanced however is ambiguous and hence less apt.

Does civilization have to do with literacy and govenment organization?

Yes, those are part of the definition, as well as cultural and technological developments.

[RyoSW]

CH1Y0

Hepzeba

CH1Y0

Hepzeba

Nemesis Erinys

If we're supposed to believe a story just because it's illogical, what about aliens abducting people and probing them? Or bigfoot? Or psychic ghosts? Or the Earth is held up on the back of a giant turtle? Really, insert your own myth here.

This goes back to one of the earlier posts about the blood of the martyrs. Many converts to Jesus' disciples were killed in hideous ways. They were given opportunities to back out by simply denouncing their faith and worshiping the Roman pantheon, but they refused knowing the horrible deaths they were about to face.

Augustine put an end to that nonsense though.

Interesting. What did St. Augustine do? He defined "just war." What did he write, say or do with regard to the deaths of the early Christians?

He condemned the martyrs, dying and being holy is very much opposed to a founding church.

RyoSW says:



That I have to contest! Augustine at most was telling people to stop looking to be martyrs, not saying martyrs were against the church. While one should be willing to die for their beliefs, committing suicide at the hands of government officials is the sin.

[Hepzeba]

Nemesis Erinys

Hepzeba

Nemesis Erinys

CH1Y0

niquesamere

your story is so convoluted that you have to engage in prevarication to defend it. jesus didn't fulfill the messianic prophesies ask any jew why they don't worship jesus. and if jesus doesn't need to be worshiped he could have fooled me because the new testament says if you don't do it you go to hell.

the logical holes in this story are gaping. god sacrifices himself to himself to save everyone from himself.

If someone were lying to you wouldn't they try to produce a logical story though?

If we're supposed to believe a story just because it's illogical, what about aliens abducting people and probing them? Or bigfoot? Or psychic ghosts? Or the Earth is held up on the back of a giant turtle? Really, insert your own myth here.

This goes back to one of the earlier posts about the blood of the martyrs. Many converts to Jesus' disciples were killed in hideous ways. They were given opportunities to back out by simply denouncing their faith and worshiping the Roman pantheon, but they refused knowing the horrible deaths they were about to face.

I don't understand you're connection. Would you please explain it more? I'd like to understand.

How believable any far-fetched sounding story has to do with the reality that it has regarding actual impact. I don't doubt Bigfoot because for one thing, the Northwest Native Americans believe in these animals and decorate their totem poles with his picture. Thus Bigfoot seems to have actual impact on their culture. The other animals on many of the totem poles were believed to be fictitious by new explorers until they were actually discovered to exist. While there is little physical evidence that Bigfoot is real, the evidence of the testimony of the Native American tribes is somewhat convincing to me and thus I will not rule out Bigfoots existance.

In a more profound way we see how the hideous deaths of the early Christians gave proof that such as man as Jesus existed and that this existance had profound impact on them to such an extent that they were willing to die painful and prolonged torturous deaths rather than deny Jesus.

[Hepzeba]

CH1Y0

Hepzeba

CH1Y0

Hepzeba

Nemesis Erinys

If we're supposed to believe a story just because it's illogical, what about aliens abducting people and probing them? Or bigfoot? Or psychic ghosts? Or the Earth is held up on the back of a giant turtle? Really, insert your own myth here.

This goes back to one of the earlier posts about the blood of the martyrs. Many converts to Jesus' disciples were killed in hideous ways. They were given opportunities to back out by simply denouncing their faith and worshiping the Roman pantheon, but they refused knowing the horrible deaths they were about to face.

Augustine put an end to that nonsense though.

Interesting. What did St. Augustine do? He defined "just war." What did he write, say or do with regard to the deaths of the early Christians?

He condemned the martyrs, dying and being holy is very much opposed to a founding church.

The early church fathers condemned people for going overboard to purposely seek a martyrs death. Is that what you mean? The martyrs that the Church acknowledges are those who went unwillingly to their deaths but with a faithful testimony of Christ. Provoking someone to kill you is not Catholic teaching.

[CH1Y0]

RyoSW

CH1Y0

Hepzeba

CH1Y0

Hepzeba

Nemesis Erinys

If we're supposed to believe a story just because it's illogical, what about aliens abducting people and probing them? Or bigfoot? Or psychic ghosts? Or the Earth is held up on the back of a giant turtle? Really, insert your own myth here.

This goes back to one of the earlier posts about the blood of the martyrs. Many converts to Jesus' disciples were killed in hideous ways. They were given opportunities to back out by simply denouncing their faith and worshiping the Roman pantheon, but they refused knowing the horrible deaths they were about to face.

Augustine put an end to that nonsense though.

Interesting. What did St. Augustine do? He defined "just war." What did he write, say or do with regard to the deaths of the early Christians?

He condemned the martyrs, dying and being holy is very much opposed to a founding church.

RyoSW says:



That I have to contest! Augustine at most was telling people to stop looking to be martyrs, not saying martyrs were against the church. While one should be willing to die for their beliefs, committing suicide at the hands of government officials is the sin.

Fair point; he condemned those that would be and those that were "ill advised in matters of spirituality". Essentially he consilidated his posistion.

[CH1Y0]

Hepzeba

CH1Y0

Hepzeba

CH1Y0

Hepzeba

Nemesis Erinys

If we're supposed to believe a story just because it's illogical, what about aliens abducting people and probing them? Or bigfoot? Or psychic ghosts? Or the Earth is held up on the back of a giant turtle? Really, insert your own myth here.

This goes back to one of the earlier posts about the blood of the martyrs. Many converts to Jesus' disciples were killed in hideous ways. They were given opportunities to back out by simply denouncing their faith and worshiping the Roman pantheon, but they refused knowing the horrible deaths they were about to face.

Augustine put an end to that nonsense though.

Interesting. What did St. Augustine do? He defined "just war." What did he write, say or do with regard to the deaths of the early Christians?

He condemned the martyrs, dying and being holy is very much opposed to a founding church.

The early church fathers condemned people for going overboard to purposely seek a martyrs death. Is that what you mean? The martyrs that the Church acknowledges are those who went unwillingly to their deaths but with a faithful testimony of Christ. Provoking someone to kill you is not Catholic teaching.

Addressed above. (^_^)

[niquesameree]

RyoSW

You're knowledge of Christianity is what's got holes in it here. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there are plenty of Jews who do believe Christ fulfilled the prophecies. In fact, at least twelve Jews knew he was right off the bat, and there are still some today. They're called Messianic or Completed Jews.I f you want to see what prophecies he did fulfill, try reading the Gospels.

a small sect of jews believing jesus fulfilled the prophesies means that he did. but most jews believing that he didn't doesn't mean he didn't. your logic is flawless.

Quote:

And in a sense, your last statement is correct. Only God didn't make evil happen. He knew that man would fall, and made man anyways. He knew he would have to suffer blasphemy and pain, but wanted to share his love so he bore it.

you're just opening a new can of worms with this one. first you are wrong.
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
so god does make evil. second if god is omnipotent he could prevent all those things.

Quote:

As for the New Testament, it's true that if you don't have faith in him you'll go to hell. But if you don't worship him, he doesn't loose anything. You're the one who looses everything.

so god threatens you with eternal torture which he could easily spare you from because he's all-powerful. but he'll only spare you if you worship him and do everything he says. this doesn't benifit him in any way of course he could care less what you do. but rules are rules. even though he makes the rules and could have made them different. how charming.

[niquesameree]

CH1Y0

niquesamere

CH1Y0

Advanced means too many different things for it to be best used in this situation.

civilized is a comparative term. the fact is people know more today. that's not in dispute.

Yet there is more to know within any one sphere. Further more who specifically do we refer to?
Of course civilised is a comparitive term, that's why I used it in comparisson, advanced however is ambiguous and hence less apt.

are you saying that there was more information 2000 years ago than today? the answer is yes or no.

[Hepzeba]

niquesamere

so god threatens you with eternal torture which he could easily spare you from because he's all-powerful. but he'll only spare you if you worship him and do everything he says. this doesn't benifit him in any way of course he could care less what you do. but rules are rules. even though he makes the rules and could have made them different. how charming

.

In Catholicism, God does not threaten and does spare because of divine mercy. Rather than use the word "spare" as with a tyrant, rather God embraces and encompasses creation. It is we who are given the free will to reject love. Your line of argument works well against a fundamentalist, particularly a Calvinist (no offense intended to the Calvinists) rather than to Catholic theology. Man is not made for "the rules" but rather these cammandements are made for man to protect him and ensure a happier life and a more positive outcome of any given circumstances ... some of which are indeed dire because of free will.

[Iconoclast Enthusiast]

Hepzeba

Nemesis Erinys

Hepzeba

Nemesis Erinys

CH1Y0

niquesamere

your story is so convoluted that you have to engage in prevarication to defend it. jesus didn't fulfill the messianic prophesies ask any jew why they don't worship jesus. and if jesus doesn't need to be worshiped he could have fooled me because the new testament says if you don't do it you go to hell.

the logical holes in this story are gaping. god sacrifices himself to himself to save everyone from himself.

If someone were lying to you wouldn't they try to produce a logical story though?

If we're supposed to believe a story just because it's illogical, what about aliens abducting people and probing them? Or bigfoot? Or psychic ghosts? Or the Earth is held up on the back of a giant turtle? Really, insert your own myth here.

This goes back to one of the earlier posts about the blood of the martyrs. Many converts to Jesus' disciples were killed in hideous ways. They were given opportunities to back out by simply denouncing their faith and worshiping the Roman pantheon, but they refused knowing the horrible deaths they were about to face.

I don't understand you're connection. Would you please explain it more? I'd like to understand.

How believable any far-fetched sounding story has to do with the reality that it has regarding actual impact. I don't doubt Bigfoot because for one thing, the Northwest Native Americans believe in these animals and decorate their totem poles with his picture. Thus Bigfoot seems to have actual impact on their culture. The other animals on many of the totem poles were believed to be fictitious by new explorers until they were actually discovered to exist. While there is little physical evidence that Bigfoot is real, the evidence of the testimony of the Native American tribes is somewhat convincing to me and thus I will not rule out Bigfoots existance.

In a more profound way we see how the hideous deaths of the early Christians gave proof that such as man as Jesus existed and that this existance had profound impact on them to such an extent that they were willing to die painful and prolonged torturous deaths rather than deny Jesus.

You make an interesting case about bigfoot. I actually don't have a strong opinion on it, I'm just waiting for the evidence (I was just seeking an example). However, Native Americans also had creatures that they believed in like Thunderbirds and giant snakes with wings. Their belief in it doesn't necessarily make it true.

People much later in history were also willing to undergo torture and horrible deaths rather than renounce their faiths (ex: Spanish Inquisition, mutual persecution of Catholics and Protestants in English empire depending on the religion of the monarch in power). I think that shows that their belief was enough, meaning that the behavior of those earlier people does not necessarily prove the existence of Jesus.

[Biot-Savart Law]

Wyedg

Angels_Satire

Wyedg

What's with all the people posting challenges to wicked_fire's religion? She didn't post this thread to propagate or argue about her beliefs. It was obviously just meant to band together for support with other's who share her religion. The way some people are attacking her beliefs is no different than when churches picket concerts and pride parades. I'm not religious, but I can at least confidently say that bigotry and hypocrisy are wrong.

Having a belief is all fine and good, but some things are lies in my view, and I'm asking for backing up, yes?

I would challenge a homosexual person saying homosexuals were better than heterosexuals, or an atheist saying we shouldn't have any theists.

She never said that Christians are better than anyone else. And don't try to say something like "they have to if they think that only they deserve heaven", because the same type of thing can be said against your argument. e.g. "you must think you are better if you claim to be more able to see the truth than Christians".

I should have been more clear.

I would challenge people I think are lying or hold a damaging or ignorant belief. Those were two examples I could think of off the top of my head. I realize now, without giving a warning, it must look like I accused her of that, but I really didn't mean to. >.< So I apologize for that, but I know I'm not here to attack her becauase she's Christian, and I'm a dirty atheist, but because she has beliefs I find to be the equivalent of lying.