gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
Because in the last 10 years, that's a solution that has worked right?
gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
Because in the last 10 years, that's a solution that has worked right?
I'd still take it over having carte blanche to basically harass people on the grounds of how they price s**t.
It's not the best thing but it's arguably leagues above THAT suggestion.
gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
There's a guild I came across called MM: Marketplace Manipulation
(I didn't think such a guild existed or could exist)
And at the end of their intro states - Artificial Inflation is not against Gaia's TOS and we have proof of this.
So I said okaaaaay but when #7 of the TOS mentioned at the end
7. Gold/Platinum, Virtual Currency. Throughout your Gaia Online experience, you may accumulate "Gold/Platinum", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of Gaia Online when, as, and if allowed by Gaia. Gold/Platinum is the fictional currency used in the world of Gaia Online and it may only be used to purchase virtual goods or virtual services which are stored in the Member's inventory and can be used to enhance the look of the Member's on-line persona or player, also known as an "Avatar", or other on-site features. Gaia may charge fees for the right to use Gold/Platinum, or may distribute Gold/Platinum without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Gold/Platinum represents a limited license right governed solely under these Terms, has no real value, and is not transferable or redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Gaia at any time. As a condition of using Gaia Online and accumulating Gold/Platinum, you agree that Gaia has the absolute right to reduce, manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate Gold/Platinum, including the Gold/Platinum in your inventory, as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and that Gaia will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such rights. Upon your closing of your account or the termination of your account by Gaia as provided in these terms, you understand that your limited license to use Gold/Platinum will be terminated and that no sum shall be due and owing to you for the Gold/Platinum accumulated in your inventory or account. Notwithstanding any other language to the contrary, as used in these Terms and throughout Gaia Online in the context of Gold/Platinum transfers: (a) the term "sell" means "to transfer for consideration to another Member or Gaia the licensed right to use Gold/Platinum in accordance with these Terms" and (b) the term "buy" means "to receive for consideration from another Member or Gaia the licensed right to use Gold/Platinum in accordance with these Terms". Gaia may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Gold/Platinum transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of these Terms or other laws or regulations, to conform with revisions to these Terms, or deliberate disruptions to or interference with Gaia Online, such as creating multiple secondary accounts strictly to accumulate Gold/Platinum by using site features and then funneling it to a singular account.
Sounds controversial but what am I supposed to think? ???___???
gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
Because in the last 10 years, that's a solution that has worked right?
I'd still take it over having carte blanche to basically harass people on the grounds of how they price s**t.
It's not the best thing but it's arguably leagues above THAT suggestion.
I do not condone the harassment of the users doing these things but there has to be some kind of penalty or it will just keep happening. I would say an option for preferred sellers being advertised or something.
gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
Because in the last 10 years, that's a solution that has worked right?
I'd still take it over having carte blanche to basically harass people on the grounds of how they price s**t.
It's not the best thing but it's arguably leagues above THAT suggestion.
I do not condone the harassment of the users doing these things but there has to be some kind of penalty or it will just keep happening. I would say an option for preferred sellers being advertised or something.
The best method is to implement an ability to ignore sellers/buyers on the MP and deny them access from your shops, and have it follow the same rules as ignoring someone wholesale.
I.E if they circumvent the ignore to get into your shop so they can nab and try to AI, they get punished.
It denies them quicker access to lower priced listings that are fighting against their s**t and can nail repeat offenders enough to make them think twice. Hopefully.
gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
Because in the last 10 years, that's a solution that has worked right?
I'd still take it over having carte blanche to basically harass people on the grounds of how they price s**t.
It's not the best thing but it's arguably leagues above THAT suggestion.
I do not condone the harassment of the users doing these things but there has to be some kind of penalty or it will just keep happening. I would say an option for preferred sellers being advertised or something.
The best method is to implement an ability to ignore sellers/buyers on the MP and deny them access from your shops, and have it follow the same rules as ignoring someone wholesale.
I.E if they circumvent the ignore to get into your shop so they can nab and try to AI, they get punished.
It denies them quicker access to lower priced listings that are fighting against their s**t and can nail repeat offenders enough to make them think twice. Hopefully.
would a black list not be made eventually by the users, I think we are on the same track of thinking but the details of how we get to the end are a little muddy.
Because in the last 10 years, that's a solution that has worked right?
I'd still take it over having carte blanche to basically harass people on the grounds of how they price s**t.
It's not the best thing but it's arguably leagues above THAT suggestion.
I do not condone the harassment of the users doing these things but there has to be some kind of penalty or it will just keep happening. I would say an option for preferred sellers being advertised or something.
The best method is to implement an ability to ignore sellers/buyers on the MP and deny them access from your shops, and have it follow the same rules as ignoring someone wholesale.
I.E if they circumvent the ignore to get into your shop so they can nab and try to AI, they get punished.
It denies them quicker access to lower priced listings that are fighting against their s**t and can nail repeat offenders enough to make them think twice. Hopefully.
would a black list not be made eventually by the users, I think we are on the same track of thinking but the details of how we get to the end are a little muddy.
I'm sure user-made blacklists already exist, but as they name people in a negative manner I do not believe they're allowed via the ToS.
I'd rather just deny ******** access to my shop if they wanna play stupid games.
Here's your stupid prize.
Because in the last 10 years, that's a solution that has worked right?
I'd still take it over having carte blanche to basically harass people on the grounds of how they price s**t.
It's not the best thing but it's arguably leagues above THAT suggestion.
I do not condone the harassment of the users doing these things but there has to be some kind of penalty or it will just keep happening. I would say an option for preferred sellers being advertised or something.
The best method is to implement an ability to ignore sellers/buyers on the MP and deny them access from your shops, and have it follow the same rules as ignoring someone wholesale.
I.E if they circumvent the ignore to get into your shop so they can nab and try to AI, they get punished.
It denies them quicker access to lower priced listings that are fighting against their s**t and can nail repeat offenders enough to make them think twice. Hopefully.
would a black list not be made eventually by the users, I think we are on the same track of thinking but the details of how we get to the end are a little muddy.
I'm sure user-made blacklists already exist, but as they name people in a negative manner I do not believe they're allowed via the ToS.
I'd rather just deny ******** access to my shop if they wanna play stupid games.
Here's your stupid prize.
Oh, i see. As a seller, we deny buyers via ignored option?
I do not condone the harassment of the users doing these things but there has to be some kind of penalty or it will just keep happening. I would say an option for preferred sellers being advertised or something.
The best method is to implement an ability to ignore sellers/buyers on the MP and deny them access from your shops, and have it follow the same rules as ignoring someone wholesale.
I.E if they circumvent the ignore to get into your shop so they can nab and try to AI, they get punished.
It denies them quicker access to lower priced listings that are fighting against their s**t and can nail repeat offenders enough to make them think twice. Hopefully.
would a black list not be made eventually by the users, I think we are on the same track of thinking but the details of how we get to the end are a little muddy.
I'm sure user-made blacklists already exist, but as they name people in a negative manner I do not believe they're allowed via the ToS.
I'd rather just deny ******** access to my shop if they wanna play stupid games.
Here's your stupid prize.
Oh, i see. As a seller, we deny buyers via ignored option?
Yes, that's the suggestion.
You wanna AI s**t? Can't get into my shop.
Use a mule to bypass that intentionally? Subject them to the same punishment you'd get if you use a mule to bypass an ignore and contact someone.
This is my first time logging on in almost 9 years, we don't have gold anymore. I used to be worth over 10 million gaia gold... now I'm worth barely a fraction. That was a bit of a surprise... or shock. I have so many items I acquired from 2004- 2010, I really don't even care anymore. I just think it's cool this site still exists lol
Has the market place been disabled? I tried to buy another trade pass because it said I needed another one, but no can do... I'm really just trying to catch up on things here.
'm not saying I don't want to see it, I'm saying it's literally free market. Gaia literally encourages us to buy low and sell high. It's possible to do IRL, it sure as hell should be possible to do on a free online forum, with a fictional currency. It's literally just as "fair".
Then you guess it's fair to buy copies of the same item, then making them unlisted in the mp, then re-enlisting them in the mp at inflated prices.
That's not a free market that's greed.
Buy low sell high fine But leave your limitless mules out of it
because that right there is not fair nor is it allowed
I mean. Yes. It is technically fair. It isn't nice or anything, at all but it sure as hell is fair.
And if it IS truly against the rules, I honestly had no idea about it. I never saw anything about it being said or written on the site.
But for discussion's sake - say I wanted to hoard all of the Item X on the site purely because I want to. That's my right as a user, to just collect multiple copies of an item because it tickles my fancy. How is that any less or more fair than just selling the said item for money? At least selling it for profit makes it available on the market.
Selling high does not mean inflated items multiple times on multiple accounts aka mules. Not only because it's messing up the economy but because it's against TOS.
Don't believe me? You don't have to. But I dare you to look at other posts that mentioned it and come tell me (or them) that you don't believe because your rights as a user is above all else. But it doesn't slide with the TOS. Trust me.
As a matter of fact, I could bring up a couple of posts that explains what I'm talking about if you like to see for yourself.
Where in the TOS does it state that? I've looked and haven't seen a single thing on it. Can you provide that?
Because last I checked, the TOS does state that the items and account that you have aren't technically yours. You have no ownership of anything, all Gaia does is lease you out items. As long as you don't break the TOS that you signed when you created the account. If you do break the TOS, and get perma banned then everything you bought with real money becomes forfeit and you lose everything.
Part of me wants to say that saying something in the TOS, and filing a false report is going to land you in more hot water, than someone buying low and selling high.
She'll RHONGOMYNIAD you in the face!
Even if I did, then what? It wouldn't stop users with mules inflating items in the marketplace would it? No it would not.
And certain users will act like it's okay because their greed is being fulfilled
(AS LONG as their greed is being fulfilled).
Again selling high does not mean inflating items.
Why do you guys find this so acceptable? I don't understand the sentiment.
Except that you can't prove that.
This is what I see happening more so, someone lists it at x price. It ends up getting unlisted because the x amount of days they selected ended up lapsing. They sell other things. That item probably went to their mule because they ran out of room, and because there hasn't been any listings, then the price is fixed at whatever that last price was.
And if someone uses Gaia Upgrade and undercuts it will either undercut from the lbp, the abp, both or somehow it will glitch and when you hit submit you'll get the finalized price that seems extremely high. That is more likely to be happening than what you have seen.
gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
There's a guild I came across called MM: Marketplace Manipulation
(I didn't think such a guild existed or could exist)
And at the end of their intro states - Artificial Inflation is not against Gaia's TOS and we have proof of this.
So I said okaaaaay but when #7 of the TOS mentioned at the end
7. Gold/Platinum, Virtual Currency. Throughout your Gaia Online experience, you may accumulate "Gold/Platinum", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of Gaia Online when, as, and if allowed by Gaia. Gold/Platinum is the fictional currency used in the world of Gaia Online and it may only be used to purchase virtual goods or virtual services which are stored in the Member's inventory and can be used to enhance the look of the Member's on-line persona or player, also known as an "Avatar", or other on-site features. Gaia may charge fees for the right to use Gold/Platinum, or may distribute Gold/Platinum without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Gold/Platinum represents a limited license right governed solely under these Terms, has no real value, and is not transferable or redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Gaia at any time. As a condition of using Gaia Online and accumulating Gold/Platinum, you agree that Gaia has the absolute right to reduce, manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate Gold/Platinum, including the Gold/Platinum in your inventory, as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and that Gaia will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such rights. Upon your closing of your account or the termination of your account by Gaia as provided in these terms, you understand that your limited license to use Gold/Platinum will be terminated and that no sum shall be due and owing to you for the Gold/Platinum accumulated in your inventory or account. Notwithstanding any other language to the contrary, as used in these Terms and throughout Gaia Online in the context of Gold/Platinum transfers: (a) the term "sell" means "to transfer for consideration to another Member or Gaia the licensed right to use Gold/Platinum in accordance with these Terms" and (b) the term "buy" means "to receive for consideration from another Member or Gaia the licensed right to use Gold/Platinum in accordance with these Terms". Gaia may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Gold/Platinum transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of these Terms or other laws or regulations, to conform with revisions to these Terms, or deliberate disruptions to or interference with Gaia Online, such as creating multiple secondary accounts strictly to accumulate Gold/Platinum by using site features and then funneling it to a singular account.
Sounds controversial but what am I supposed to think? ???___???
Then every single user is subject to being banned because we all use mules, because 50 slots isn't enough when you have thousands of items which takes a lot of pages. So let's ban every single person so that you and a few people are even on this site, so that way Gaia tanks.
gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
There's a guild I came across called MM: Marketplace Manipulation
(I didn't think such a guild existed or could exist)
And at the end of their intro states - Artificial Inflation is not against Gaia's TOS and we have proof of this.
So I said okaaaaay but when #7 of the TOS mentioned at the end
7. Gold/Platinum, Virtual Currency. Throughout your Gaia Online experience, you may accumulate "Gold/Platinum", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of Gaia Online when, as, and if allowed by Gaia. Gold/Platinum is the fictional currency used in the world of Gaia Online and it may only be used to purchase virtual goods or virtual services which are stored in the Member's inventory and can be used to enhance the look of the Member's on-line persona or player, also known as an "Avatar", or other on-site features. Gaia may charge fees for the right to use Gold/Platinum, or may distribute Gold/Platinum without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Gold/Platinum represents a limited license right governed solely under these Terms, has no real value, and is not transferable or redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Gaia at any time. As a condition of using Gaia Online and accumulating Gold/Platinum, you agree that Gaia has the absolute right to reduce, manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate Gold/Platinum, including the Gold/Platinum in your inventory, as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and that Gaia will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such rights. Upon your closing of your account or the termination of your account by Gaia as provided in these terms, you understand that your limited license to use Gold/Platinum will be terminated and that no sum shall be due and owing to you for the Gold/Platinum accumulated in your inventory or account. Notwithstanding any other language to the contrary, as used in these Terms and throughout Gaia Online in the context of Gold/Platinum transfers: (a) the term "sell" means "to transfer for consideration to another Member or Gaia the licensed right to use Gold/Platinum in accordance with these Terms" and (b) the term "buy" means "to receive for consideration from another Member or Gaia the licensed right to use Gold/Platinum in accordance with these Terms". Gaia may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Gold/Platinum transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of these Terms or other laws or regulations, to conform with revisions to these Terms, or deliberate disruptions to or interference with Gaia Online, such as creating multiple secondary accounts strictly to accumulate Gold/Platinum by using site features and then funneling it to a singular account.
Sounds controversial but what am I supposed to think? ???___???
Then every single user is subject to being banned because we all use mules, because 50 slots isn't enough when you have thousands of items which takes a lot of pages. So let's ban every single person so that you and a few people are even on this site, so that way Gaia tanks.
She'll RHONGOMYNIAD you in the face!
I don't use my mule to sell stuff. So I just kinda disproved your hyperbole, for whatever that's worth.
gaia needs to stop throwing covers over people and things breaking the site and saying if we don't look at it it doesnt matter.
We should be able to name these people and fully expose them without fear of punishment. Turning a blind eye to it will only allow it to thrive.
There should be a vendor black list, or a gaia BBB.
No.
It won't stop vendors from listing things for higher than average/inflated prices. All you'd be doing in that situation is allowing people to harass others, which we don't need.
The only ways to stop them is either to rely on other users to combat their bullshit or go against the concept of a free market and regulate the MP in such a way that they won't be able to function.
And I'd rather rely on the first of the two proposed, because that can work in Gaia's favor so long as they help rerelease items.
There's a guild I came across called MM: Marketplace Manipulation
(I didn't think such a guild existed or could exist)
And at the end of their intro states - Artificial Inflation is not against Gaia's TOS and we have proof of this.
So I said okaaaaay but when #7 of the TOS mentioned at the end
7. Gold/Platinum, Virtual Currency. Throughout your Gaia Online experience, you may accumulate "Gold/Platinum", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of Gaia Online when, as, and if allowed by Gaia. Gold/Platinum is the fictional currency used in the world of Gaia Online and it may only be used to purchase virtual goods or virtual services which are stored in the Member's inventory and can be used to enhance the look of the Member's on-line persona or player, also known as an "Avatar", or other on-site features. Gaia may charge fees for the right to use Gold/Platinum, or may distribute Gold/Platinum without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Gold/Platinum represents a limited license right governed solely under these Terms, has no real value, and is not transferable or redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Gaia at any time. As a condition of using Gaia Online and accumulating Gold/Platinum, you agree that Gaia has the absolute right to reduce, manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate Gold/Platinum, including the Gold/Platinum in your inventory, as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and that Gaia will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such rights. Upon your closing of your account or the termination of your account by Gaia as provided in these terms, you understand that your limited license to use Gold/Platinum will be terminated and that no sum shall be due and owing to you for the Gold/Platinum accumulated in your inventory or account. Notwithstanding any other language to the contrary, as used in these Terms and throughout Gaia Online in the context of Gold/Platinum transfers: (a) the term "sell" means "to transfer for consideration to another Member or Gaia the licensed right to use Gold/Platinum in accordance with these Terms" and (b) the term "buy" means "to receive for consideration from another Member or Gaia the licensed right to use Gold/Platinum in accordance with these Terms". Gaia may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Gold/Platinum transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of these Terms or other laws or regulations, to conform with revisions to these Terms, or deliberate disruptions to or interference with Gaia Online, such as creating multiple secondary accounts strictly to accumulate Gold/Platinum by using site features and then funneling it to a singular account.
Sounds controversial but what am I supposed to think? ???___???
Then every single user is subject to being banned because we all use mules, because 50 slots isn't enough when you have thousands of items which takes a lot of pages. So let's ban every single person so that you and a few people are even on this site, so that way Gaia tanks.
She'll RHONGOMYNIAD you in the face!
Or we can continue to let users use multiple accounts to mass but items, to the point they're no listings, but then wait a moment, then re-relist them and hijack the prices to the point their inflated no one can/is willing to buy.
That way you and many users who agree with that can continue to manipulate the marketplace.
Also Gaia was tanking a long time ago when hyperinflation happened.
It's not new that they're struggling to stay afloat.
But what do I know right? I'm just someone who disagrees with manipulating the marketplace at user's disadvantage huh?