The Abortion Debate

[Who is Morgan]

Big_Ass_Guitar_Gun

GoatShow

"She supports someone aborting their child based on its sex. How is that sexism?"
You pro-choicers are really something.

She is supporting the woman not because she is doing it based on sex, it is because she is choosing what to do with her own body (do not argue "it's the fetus" body, it's feeding and living off her). Please do not go into a fallacy.

FYI, folks, I prefer that you not use "she" as a pronoun for me. Either use morgan or tay as pronouns. Thank you.

[Deformography]

GoatShow

Ah, it's been too long since I felt the sweet touch of a pro-choice swarm.

Deformography

Ah. So you're "pro-life" when it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Sweet.

I have never seen you express concern for the life of the fetus.

READ. SIG.

Point? Or are you just trying to waste my time?

Quote:

Quote:

I have always seen you express your contempt for pro-choicers and a pro-punishment attitude.

Show me this pro-punishment attitude.

The pro-punishment attitude that YOU express? You're joking, right?

Quote:

Quote:

That strikes me as anti-choice and anti-woman (meaning, anti-choices that you dislike and anti-women who make them).

Anti-woman. Well this IS rich.
And it ties in well, too. So what's your take on gender-based abortions?

Ah. So you ARE just wasting my time. Don't waste words, jackass.

I don't like sex-selective abortion, but it is not my place to tell a woman that she cannot abort... especially because I don't like her reasoning.

[Who is Morgan]

GoatShow

I Director

No. ******** it. I'm not giving any further reasoning unto my beliefs until you give yours for your own. Because not once have you stated them. You've just been jumping at other people's posts for anything you consider a contradiction, even on the smallest level.

Because the way you're playing this makes it look like you're pro-life more so out of contempt for pro-choicers rather than belief with what you align yourself with.

Or are you afraid of people challenging your beliefs in a debate forum?

I could ask you the same question.
A contradiction on the smallest level is hypocrasy.

I'm back because I took a second to re-evaluate my situation. Turns out I'm not crazy. Also, upon seeing your justification for the right to abort fetuses for any old reason, even those you oppose, I realized that giving up was not the answer. What's that line about evil happening when good men do nothing?

As for me:
I'm pro-life. I'm opposed to killing people for any reason other than self defense.
I make an exception for abortion wherein the mother will die from childbirth. I am pro-LIFE, after all.
I also make an exception for the death penalty in regards to an unrepentant serial killer, on the grounds of protecting others within the jail from said killer.
I also also make an exception for euthenasia on the grounds that the person requesting it is dying painfully.

I don't eat lobster and veal because I think the way they're killed is cruel. (irrelevant, as I can afford neither)
And I support a family from Nicaragua on $30 a month.

Anything else?

Okay, you want mine?

I'm pro-choice. I'm opposed to using females as incubators.

Why? I'm a disabled transgendered female who grew up with a family who wanted a son so badly that they caused me to feel guilty my whole life for just existing. I am at severely elevated risk for life-threatening complications due to pregnancy and have dysphoria that makes me suicidal when I even think I *might* be pregnant. It was one of the contributing factors in my attempted suicide in January. I know that other females have similar psychological hang ups regarding pregnancy, but that they can't prove it and would be forced by this to either deal with traumatic horror, revulsion and terror through an entire pregnancy or would be forced to go through an illegal abortion if abortion were made illegal or would kill themselves.

Even if this were not the case, my disabilities are all either known or suspected to be genetic and I REFUSE to pass those on to a child I might have. I refuse to put a child through the pain I experience every day of my life.

I believe that life is utterly sacred. All life. I respect all life. From a blade of grass to a human being, I see all lives as equal. I respect and hold sacred life by respecting it. I do not eat animals that are killed cruelly (such as veal). I do not eat the young of any animal (such as lamb). I do not eat or wear any animal that is not used in its entirely (such as mink or frogs). I hold that quality of life is more important than quantity and that all life--ALL LIFE--should come into this world wanted by its parents (if the parents are capable of wanting) or at the very least, in such a way that the parents are not negatively effected. Born life is no more or less important than the unborn--both are utterly sacred--but the fact that unborn life resides inside another (in the cases of mammals and some amphibians and fish) makes the final decision about the life of the unborn the decision of the being carrying the unborn, as they are also the individual whose life is in danger from carrying the unborn. Because life is sacred, you cannot ask a being to give up its life for another. While this may seem a hypocrisy, understand this: life should not be risked without the permission of its owner. Just as I would kill worms were they growing within my body or that of my cat, as they put our health and quality of life at risk, I support a female's right to kill a foetus as it does what a worm does--puts life and quality of life at risk.

I am against animal testing, but recognise that until we have a better way, it is necessary. For that reason, I will leave my organs to be harvested and my body to be studied after I die, in hopes that an alternative might be found.

I am for euthanasia, as life's end should be dignified and a person should have the right to a dignified end and a choice in when that end is.

I am pro-life in every way, sir, but for some reason, the fact that I hold quality over quantity makes me vilified and unable to call myself pro-life without causing confusion.

[Who is Morgan]

Deformography

GoatShow

Aino Ailill

GoatShow

Aino Ailill

Morgan would support a woman who wished to abort a male because she wanted a female as well. If it goes both ways, how is it sexism? Simply supporting another's right to be sexist does not make one's self sexist.

? You bolded. ?

"She supports someone aborting their child based on its sex. How is that sexism?"
You pro-choicers are really something.

Only because you're twisting our words to fit your needs.

Morgan supports the choice. Supporting sex-selective abortion because Morgan hates men/women/et cetera would be sexist. Supporting it because Morgan feels that no child should be unwanted is not sexist. See how it works when you interpret it as it was meant, not as you WANT it to be meant so that you can better demonize us?

I consider my stance to be one of incredible equality.

No child, regardless of race, sex, ability level, appearance, or anything else should EVER be unwanted. EVER. Children should ALL be born wanted. Not just the pretty ones. Not just the smart ones. Not just the boys. Not just the girls. ALL children.

[Raina Luxe]

Who is Morgan

GoatShow

Who is Morgan

GoatShow

Who is Morgan

I'm not, strictly speaking, pro-abortion, but I'm all for sex-selective and eugenic abortions.

Unwanted for reason of sex or ability level is still unwanted, and no baby should be born unwanted.

You understand that makes you anti-woman, correct?

How? Because I believe that no child should be unwanted? And because I believe, from my experience as a daughter where a son was desired, that people do harm their child if it's not what they wanted? Because I believe that in a family who has 4 sons already, who wants a daughter, they should be allowed to choose not to have another son? Because I believe that little girls shouldn't be abused for being little girls where a little boy was desired?

So, to put everything into perspective and find the core of the argument: You believe that a mother has the right to abort her daughter SIMPLY BECAUSE said daughter is female and the mother wanted a male?

AND you point out that the mother aborting the daughter is somehow protecting it.



That's it. I'm done.
I can't argue with you people any more. You operate on a fundamentally different line of thought than I do.

Maybe I'm the one who's crazy.

So because I believe that quality of life is more important than quantity, I'm somehow so out there that you can't understand anything I say?

I'm a disabled female who was raised by parents who wanted an able bodied male. I was neglected, mistreated, hated and forced to look after my younger siblings (of which I had 5).

I do not want to see any other child put through that. My disability decreases my quality of life quite enough. I didn't need my family's retardery on top of that.

I'll tell you this and tell it to you straight: I WISH my family had chosen to abort me. I wish my mother had chosen to find out my sex on the ultrasounds. She didn't, which was her choice, but I wish she had and I wish she had aborted me. Things would have been far better for me and far better for my family. As it is, the presence of my disabilities made me drive my family crazy because they couldn't understand me and instead turned to mistreating me.

I understand Morgan that you have had a horrible childhood, but just because your parents are nuts, it doesn't mean that you will not find love and acceptance elsewhere and that you will have a horrible life. Why limit yourself? You are not the only person who has had a bad start, most people are very unhappy with how they were raised or of circumstances that were out of our control. The problem then lies with your parents not you. Edited to say: You are the only person who can make you happy; it's not about having what you want, it's about wanting what you have.

If you were able to have a child, pain free, without complications, would you want and love that child? If you say yes, how would you gauge it from there? If you had a little discomfort would you then abort, or would you need to feel real pain? How much pain would you suffer for a stranger? Your siblings?

[I Director]

'Ey, Goatty. You never answered this:

I Director

GoatShow

I Director

GoatShow

Quote:

Yes, well, if you ARE pro-life,

No true Scotsman.

I asked a question of why aren't you doing this, because you're not pro-LIFE if you don't care about the quality of the existance after it comes unto birth. I never made it an assertion.

No true Scotsman.

Cute.

Answer the statement.

And drop the fallacy. My question still holds a grip on a hole in that logic, and I'll keep bringing it up until you address it.

Furthermore, if I were to say something like "No true vegetarian eats meat" or "No true theist believes that there isn't a god," is that a logical fallacy?

[princess_colex]

Raina Luxe

If you were able to have a child, pain free, without complications, would you want and love that child? If you say yes, how would you gauge it from there? If you had a little discomfort would you then abort, or would you need to feel real pain? How much pain would you suffer for a stranger? Your siblings?

Interesting question, but I think that's exactly the point.

If having a child were pain free and without complications then yes, I would say that the mother could take the small time out of her life to have the baby and ensure its existence.

That doesn't mean she would want and love the child. She may not be mature enough yet or in the point of her life where she's ready to have another person's well-being dependent on her. She might give the child up for adoption or something simply because she is not ready to take care of it.

But the point is that having a child is not pain free or without complications. It's not just physical pain either. If I had a baby right now it would probably ruin my life. I would not be able to graduate or go to college, and my family is having a hard enough time right just supporting the four of us and both me and my sister have jobs.

No one can know the effect having a baby would have on another person's life. For some it may be no problem, for some a huge problem, but no one can judge for another person. For this it should be the equal right of all women to decide whether they need an abortion. No one can decide for them.

[WWIV]

Raina Luxe

Who is Morgan

GoatShow

Who is Morgan

GoatShow

Who is Morgan

I'm not, strictly speaking, pro-abortion, but I'm all for sex-selective and eugenic abortions.

Unwanted for reason of sex or ability level is still unwanted, and no baby should be born unwanted.

You understand that makes you anti-woman, correct?

How? Because I believe that no child should be unwanted? And because I believe, from my experience as a daughter where a son was desired, that people do harm their child if it's not what they wanted? Because I believe that in a family who has 4 sons already, who wants a daughter, they should be allowed to choose not to have another son? Because I believe that little girls shouldn't be abused for being little girls where a little boy was desired?

So, to put everything into perspective and find the core of the argument: You believe that a mother has the right to abort her daughter SIMPLY BECAUSE said daughter is female and the mother wanted a male?

AND you point out that the mother aborting the daughter is somehow protecting it.



That's it. I'm done.
I can't argue with you people any more. You operate on a fundamentally different line of thought than I do.

Maybe I'm the one who's crazy.

So because I believe that quality of life is more important than quantity, I'm somehow so out there that you can't understand anything I say?

I'm a disabled female who was raised by parents who wanted an able bodied male. I was neglected, mistreated, hated and forced to look after my younger siblings (of which I had 5).

I do not want to see any other child put through that. My disability decreases my quality of life quite enough. I didn't need my family's retardery on top of that.

I'll tell you this and tell it to you straight: I WISH my family had chosen to abort me. I wish my mother had chosen to find out my sex on the ultrasounds. She didn't, which was her choice, but I wish she had and I wish she had aborted me. Things would have been far better for me and far better for my family. As it is, the presence of my disabilities made me drive my family crazy because they couldn't understand me and instead turned to mistreating me.

I understand Morgan that you have had a horrible childhood, but just because your parents are nuts, it doesn't mean that you will not find love and acceptance elsewhere and that you will have a horrible life. Why limit yourself? You are not the only person who has had a bad start, most people are very unhappy with how they were raised or of circumstances that were out of our control. The problem then lies with your parents not you. Edited to say: You are the only person who can make you happy; it's not about having what you want, it's about wanting what you have.

If you were able to have a child, pain free, without complications, would you want and love that child? If you say yes, how would you gauge it from there? If you had a little discomfort would you then abort, or would you need to feel real pain? How much pain would you suffer for a stranger? Your siblings?

Black death come to love me
Black death caress me
Black death lick my pale skin
Black death I'm not scared

Irrelevant.

[Aino Ailill]

I Director

'Ey, Goatty. You never answered this:

I Director

GoatShow

I Director

GoatShow

Quote:

Yes, well, if you ARE pro-life,

No true Scotsman.

I asked a question of why aren't you doing this, because you're not pro-LIFE if you don't care about the quality of the existance after it comes unto birth. I never made it an assertion.

No true Scotsman.

Cute.

Answer the statement.

And drop the fallacy. My question still holds a grip on a hole in that logic, and I'll keep bringing it up until you address it.

Furthermore, if I were to say something like "No true vegetarian eats meat" or "No true theist believes that there isn't a god," is that a logical fallacy?

Of course that wouldn't be a logical fallacy but one who is pro-life, as the term is commonly understood in relation to abortion, need not be anything but anti-abortion, or perhaps pro-continuation of the fetus' life.

[Lord Setar]

Raina Luxe

Who is Morgan

GoatShow

Who is Morgan

GoatShow

Who is Morgan

I'm not, strictly speaking, pro-abortion, but I'm all for sex-selective and eugenic abortions.

Unwanted for reason of sex or ability level is still unwanted, and no baby should be born unwanted.

You understand that makes you anti-woman, correct?

How? Because I believe that no child should be unwanted? And because I believe, from my experience as a daughter where a son was desired, that people do harm their child if it's not what they wanted? Because I believe that in a family who has 4 sons already, who wants a daughter, they should be allowed to choose not to have another son? Because I believe that little girls shouldn't be abused for being little girls where a little boy was desired?

So, to put everything into perspective and find the core of the argument: You believe that a mother has the right to abort her daughter SIMPLY BECAUSE said daughter is female and the mother wanted a male?

AND you point out that the mother aborting the daughter is somehow protecting it.



That's it. I'm done.
I can't argue with you people any more. You operate on a fundamentally different line of thought than I do.

Maybe I'm the one who's crazy.

So because I believe that quality of life is more important than quantity, I'm somehow so out there that you can't understand anything I say?

I'm a disabled female who was raised by parents who wanted an able bodied male. I was neglected, mistreated, hated and forced to look after my younger siblings (of which I had 5).

I do not want to see any other child put through that. My disability decreases my quality of life quite enough. I didn't need my family's retardery on top of that.

I'll tell you this and tell it to you straight: I WISH my family had chosen to abort me. I wish my mother had chosen to find out my sex on the ultrasounds. She didn't, which was her choice, but I wish she had and I wish she had aborted me. Things would have been far better for me and far better for my family. As it is, the presence of my disabilities made me drive my family crazy because they couldn't understand me and instead turned to mistreating me.

I understand Morgan that you have had a horrible childhood, but just because your parents are nuts, it doesn't mean that you will not find love and acceptance elsewhere and that you will have a horrible life. Why limit yourself? You are not the only person who has had a bad start, most people are very unhappy with how they were raised or of circumstances that were out of our control. The problem then lies with your parents not you. Edited to say: You are the only person who can make you happy; it's not about having what you want, it's about wanting what you have.

If you were able to have a child, pain free, without complications, would you want and love that child? If you say yes, how would you gauge it from there? If you had a little discomfort would you then abort, or would you need to feel real pain? How much pain would you suffer for a stranger? Your siblings?

So, do tell me, what's so bad about preferring to not have existed?

[bizarre cheshire]

WWIV

Raina Luxe

Who is Morgan

GoatShow

Who is Morgan

How? Because I believe that no child should be unwanted? And because I believe, from my experience as a daughter where a son was desired, that people do harm their child if it's not what they wanted? Because I believe that in a family who has 4 sons already, who wants a daughter, they should be allowed to choose not to have another son? Because I believe that little girls shouldn't be abused for being little girls where a little boy was desired?

So, to put everything into perspective and find the core of the argument: You believe that a mother has the right to abort her daughter SIMPLY BECAUSE said daughter is female and the mother wanted a male?

AND you point out that the mother aborting the daughter is somehow protecting it.



That's it. I'm done.
I can't argue with you people any more. You operate on a fundamentally different line of thought than I do.

Maybe I'm the one who's crazy.

So because I believe that quality of life is more important than quantity, I'm somehow so out there that you can't understand anything I say?

I'm a disabled female who was raised by parents who wanted an able bodied male. I was neglected, mistreated, hated and forced to look after my younger siblings (of which I had 5).

I do not want to see any other child put through that. My disability decreases my quality of life quite enough. I didn't need my family's retardery on top of that.

I'll tell you this and tell it to you straight: I WISH my family had chosen to abort me. I wish my mother had chosen to find out my sex on the ultrasounds. She didn't, which was her choice, but I wish she had and I wish she had aborted me. Things would have been far better for me and far better for my family. As it is, the presence of my disabilities made me drive my family crazy because they couldn't understand me and instead turned to mistreating me.

I understand Morgan that you have had a horrible childhood, but just because your parents are nuts, it doesn't mean that you will not find love and acceptance elsewhere and that you will have a horrible life. Why limit yourself? You are not the only person who has had a bad start, most people are very unhappy with how they were raised or of circumstances that were out of our control. The problem then lies with your parents not you. Edited to say: You are the only person who can make you happy; it's not about having what you want, it's about wanting what you have.

If you were able to have a child, pain free, without complications, would you want and love that child? If you say yes, how would you gauge it from there? If you had a little discomfort would you then abort, or would you need to feel real pain? How much pain would you suffer for a stranger? Your siblings?

Black death come to love me
Black death caress me
Black death lick my pale skin
Black death I'm not scared

Irrelevant.

Actually, it isn't.

The act of aborting based on the fact that disabilities are difficult to deal with may seem very selfless. But the problem is that it is far more complicated than that. Just because a person has a disability does not mean they are miserable. Many do what they can to make do with what they have and accomplish happiness anyway. To abort would deny them the suffering that is attributed with disabilities, but it would also deny them the opportunity of individuality and being able to grow regardless of the disability.

It's not as simple as people sometimes wish to make it. The idea of supporting abortion based on the idea of your future child suffering because you did with the same disability is actually a very shaky reason. It may be enough to advocate it for the individual, but that is only because it also connects with the bodily domain of that individual. It may not be enough to advocate it for another individual because of their own personal beliefs, and the life lessons that they may pass on to their children. Many of these life lessons shape how we respond to the world and ourselves, and thus our shortcomings.

Perhaps the issue isn't with the disability itself, but with how the family teaches the child to work past it, or even with it. If the individual doesn't think that they can do this for the fetus when it would become a child, then perhaps it would be fair for them to abort. But that is up to them and how they can judge their ability to raise a child.

[Kata Samoes]

bizarre cheshire

The act of aborting based on the fact that disabilities are difficult to deal with may seem very selfless. But the problem is that it is far more complicated than that. Just because a person has a disability does not mean they are miserable. Many do what they can to make do with what they have and accomplish happiness anyway. To abort would deny them the suffering that is attributed with disabilities, but it would also deny them the opportunity of individuality and being able to grow regardless of the disability.

It's not as simple as people sometimes wish to make it. The idea of supporting abortion based on the idea of your future child suffering because you did with the same disability is actually a very shaky reason. It may be enough to advocate it for the individual, but that is only because it also connects with the bodily domain of that individual. It may not be enough to advocate it for another individual because of their own personal beliefs, and the life lessons that they may pass on to their children. Many of these life lessons shape how we respond to the world and ourselves, and thus our shortcomings.

Perhaps the issue isn't with the disability itself, but with how the family teaches the child to work past it, or even with it. If the individual doesn't think that they can do this for the fetus when it would become a child, then perhaps it would be fair for them to abort. But that is up to them and how they can judge their ability to raise a child.

I think you missed something vital to Morgan's arguments:

Who is Morgan

I'm a disabled female who was raised by parents who wanted an able bodied male. I was neglected, mistreated, hated and forced to look after my younger siblings (of which I had 5).

It's not necessarily JUST the disorder or disease, but you also have the fact that a lot of people don't WANT to deal with that level of responsibility and end up neglecting, mistreating, or even abusing them as a result. A lot of times, their offspring will blame themselves for the problems they can't help because maybe the parents blame them, or just don't want to deal with their very real needs.

[PhaedraMcSpiffy]

So, I've been gone for ages. Same-old same-old, I assume?

Anyway... The American Life League has decided that the birth control pill is the same as abortion, and will be having Protest The Pill Day 2008 on June 7th. No joke.

Thoughts?

[Demokritos]

PhaedraMcSpiffy

So, I've been gone for ages. Same-old same-old, I assume?

Anyway... The American Life League has decided that the birth control pill is the same as abortion, and will be having Protest The Pill Day 2008 on June 7th. No joke.

Thoughts?

Not only is that wrong by definition, but the whole idea of it is stupid. Back to the "Women hate", I guess, seeing as they're attempting to destroy any method of birth control.

[bizarre cheshire]

Kata Samoes

bizarre cheshire

The act of aborting based on the fact that disabilities are difficult to deal with may seem very selfless. But the problem is that it is far more complicated than that. Just because a person has a disability does not mean they are miserable. Many do what they can to make do with what they have and accomplish happiness anyway. To abort would deny them the suffering that is attributed with disabilities, but it would also deny them the opportunity of individuality and being able to grow regardless of the disability.

It's not as simple as people sometimes wish to make it. The idea of supporting abortion based on the idea of your future child suffering because you did with the same disability is actually a very shaky reason. It may be enough to advocate it for the individual, but that is only because it also connects with the bodily domain of that individual. It may not be enough to advocate it for another individual because of their own personal beliefs, and the life lessons that they may pass on to their children. Many of these life lessons shape how we respond to the world and ourselves, and thus our shortcomings.

Perhaps the issue isn't with the disability itself, but with how the family teaches the child to work past it, or even with it. If the individual doesn't think that they can do this for the fetus when it would become a child, then perhaps it would be fair for them to abort. But that is up to them and how they can judge their ability to raise a child.

I think you missed something vital to Morgan's arguments:

Who is Morgan

I'm a disabled female who was raised by parents who wanted an able bodied male. I was neglected, mistreated, hated and forced to look after my younger siblings (of which I had 5).

It's not necessarily JUST the disorder or disease, but you also have the fact that a lot of people don't WANT to deal with that level of responsibility and end up neglecting, mistreating, or even abusing them as a result. A lot of times, their offspring will blame themselves for the problems they can't help because maybe the parents blame them, or just don't want to deal with their very real needs.

But that is partially what I mean.

A lot of people, when they use the argument of disability for abortion, do not take into consideration the parenting skills of the individual in question to help the child push past that. They base the argument entirely on the disability itself, which doesn't work. Which is why I agreed with what Raina said, and pointed out to WWIV that the point isn't necessarily irrelevant. In the case of abortion, it very well can be relevant.