Kata Samoes
lymelady
1. By your logic of "It can't feel anything" (which isn't entirely true depending on when in the pregnancy abortion is done. If you support pregnancy for bodily domain, usually it makes sense to support abortion all throughout pregnancy, including the 3rd trimester. It's also not even conclusively true, you're just assuming it is. By the same token I wouldn't assume a fetus feels pain given the lack of scientific evidence and the fact that doctors debate it both ways, I wouldn't assume a fetus doesn't feel pain, but feel free to stick to whichever one helps you sleep at night. The assumption that it can't experience anything is entirely untrue. It cannot experience things the way an adult can, but that can be said about other human stages of development as well.) I can kill a sleeping person in a painless manner and that wouldn't be cruel.
The fetus is the opposite. You're not following my logic, you're making StrawMan arguments.
Further, it's been proven that the fetus CANNOT feel pain. Here's a snip for you:
Amerian Pain Society
Pain experience is now widely seen as a consequence of an amalgam of cognition, sensation, and affective processes, commonly described under the rubric of the biopsychosocial model of pain. Pain is no longer regarded as merely a physical sensation of noxious stimulus and disease, but is seen as a conscious experience that may be modulated by mental, emotional, and sensory mechanisms with sensory and emotional components. The biopsychosocial concept emphasizes the multidimensional nature of illness, injury, and pain, rather than emphasizing pain as a purely physical fact of illness or injury. Pain has been described as a multidimensional phenomena for some time, and this understanding is reflected in the current IASP definition of pain as “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage”.
A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks’ gestation is the development of the fetal cortex. Although the thalamocortical fibers penetrate the cortical plate at approximately 26 weeks’ gestation, the cortical regions that have been identified as important in processing the various components of pain do not become fully responsive until after birth. lymelady
2. Saying that something is degrading is first of all, opinion based,
lymelady
secondly, yes, it's an appeal to emotion to try and make people who disagree with you look like they're out to degrade women, just as much as it's an appeal to emotion to use words that make pro-choice people look like they're out to kill fetuses.
lymelady
3. Degrading is an opinion. It's quite possible I find it degrading that you feel women need to be able to kill their children in order to be equal to men, but I somehow feel that you don't share that opinion.
Now, how is this all opinion?
lymelady
Likewise, I don't share you opinion that it is degrading to say women can't kill their offspring for any reason whatsoever as long as that offspring is at a certain stage of development. Please back your statement that it is degrading without using emotions or opinions. You could fall back on appeal to authority, that would be entertaining.
lymelady
You dream of reflection arguments? That's quite interesting.
1. you argued that it isn't cruel because a fetus can't feel or experience anything (which is again, false. A fetus can experience things. Not at the same level as an adult or infant. An infant can't experience things on nearly the same scale as an adult. Should we say infants are worth less based on how much they can experience things? Some people argue that, and at least they're consistent). I followed your logic. If you'd like to keep going in circles, please do so, but I don't have time.
Also, I disagree with an organization declaring organic pain to not be considered pain, considering how important it is in scientific study, medical treatment, and survival. I will commend you on your fine Wiki skills. It takes a lot of effort to type in "pain" in the searchbar after going to en.wikipedia.org, I'm sure.
2. No it doesn't. You haven't been able to prove to me that it's an objective fact. If you can, please, do. Otherwise, it's an opinion. Unless I can start using my opinions, backed with arguments that you don't agree with, and calling them facts just because I say so, which seems to be the route you're taking.
You did not back it with how and why it's degrading. You backed it with how and why YOU FEEL it's degrading. I'm still waiting. Please, give me facts, not opinions.
And as I said, no, you didn't, you used opinions.
3. There are children involved in abortion in the sense that all fetuses are offspring. I said nothing of infanticide. Ah, I'm mistaken, you think women need to have abortion available in order to be something other than second class citizens to men and fetuses (thus, they aren't equal to men or fetuses without abortion being available. My mistake, I only included men), which is much less degrading, let me assure you. I'm glad to know I can't be anything but a second class citizen if I don't have the legal option to kill my offspring, thanks for the vote of confidence. You're assuming a lot about who would have more rights, especially since you don't take into consideration current provisions in our laws that give children more "rights" than adults.
4. It's an ad hom? You said reflection argument when I wished you pleasant dreams. I had no idea that it's an ad hominem, especially since I wasn't addressing an argument or attacking your personality in any way shape or form. This is, again, quite interesting.
