The Abortion Debate

[CGurp]

soul_less_human

And pregnancy sometimes.
=D

Yeah, isn't that one of the main causes of death for women?

[Veolin]

Big_Ass_Guitar_Gun

Quote:

I highly recommend you have a hysterectomy if you don't want your body used against your consent.

When you can consent to sex and not consent to it's reaction (sex=baby), I think there is something very wrong with you.

Why? A hysterectomy is for Certain types of reproductive system cancers (uterine, cervical, ovarian);
As a prophylactic treatment for those with either a strong family history of reproductive system cancers (especially breast cancer in conjunction with BRCA1 or BRCA2 mutation) or as part of their recovery from such cancers;
Severe and intractible endometriosis (overgrowth of the uterine lining) and/or adenomyosis (a more severe form of endometriosis, where the uterine lining has grown into and sometimes through the uterine wall) after pharmaceutical and other non-surgical options have been exhausted;
Postpartum to remove either a severe case of placenta praevia (a placenta that has either formed over or inside the birth canal) or placenta accreta (a placenta that has grown into and through the wall of the uterus to attach itself to other organs), as well as a last resort in case of excessive postpartum bleeding;
Female to male transsexuals, a.k.a. "transmen", as part of their gender transition. Hysterectomies has risks and side effects and isn't a good method to use for only sterilization.

I would gladly have myself sterilized with getting my tubes tied, but most doctors don't give you give you one unless:
1. You're over 40 years old
2. You already have existing children
3. You're married

Anyone with that kind of logic in mind has something extreamly wrong with them.

Also with getting someone's tubes tied, there is something else to consider. In some cases where the doctor didnt perform it properly the tubes came partially untied and ended up resulting in ectopic pregnency which puts the womans life in dainger and must be aborted imediately after it is discovered. Of course Im sure it is rare, but it is something to consider.

[Lapinporokoira]

Big_Ass_Guitar_Gun

soul_less_human

And pregnancy sometimes.
=D

Yeah, isn't that one of the main causes of death for women?

Had a look around for links on that. These are what I found.

World Health report

Patient Plus

BMJ

And some biased bull I came across in serach of the information.

Edit: More

Medical news Today
Interactive Population Health

[Chocolatey Sprinkles]

Barely_evil

Do we give the mother the legal right to kill the two-year- old daughter who is a burden to her? Why and how can we give her the legal right to kill the two-month-old daughter living inside her who is a burden to her?

Think of the logic of the inevitable extension of such a freedom to kill. We could solve poverty by killing unwanted poor people, or religious or political groups, or those too old, too burdensome, and on and on . . .

Women have the duty not to kill their unborn babies.

Murder (by abortion or any other name) should be illegal in a moral society.

Ok, I am sorry, but this is the weakest, most irrelevant argument I have seen yet.

There a distinct difference between a two-year-old toddler and a two-month-old fetus. Sentience, plus the fact that the two-year-old is BORN. Same with unwanted poor people, religious or political groups, the elderly, the mentally handicapped, the mentally insane, etc., etc., etc.

And what duty do I have not to kill unborn fetuses? By the way, it's a FETUS. A BABY is that cute babbling, dribbling, cooing, crying, pooping thing that everyone goes crazy over.

Murder and abortion are not the same. MURDER is the killing of one PERSON by another with MALICE AFORETHOUGHT. Abortion is the termination or the ending of a pregnancy. Hey, while we're calling abortion murder, let's call miscarriages manslaughter. I mean it's the same as calling abortion murder. I mean miscarriage is unintended, manslaughter is unintended, therefore it should be manslaughter right?

[Kata Samoes]

Barely_evil

I highly recommend you have a hysterectomy if you don't want your body used against your consent.

Hysterectomies are hard to get for most women and young women unless they're middle aged, married, had kids and in some cases their HUSBANDS know about it.

Fail.

Barely_evil

When you can consent to sex and not consent to it's reaction (sex=baby), I think there is something very wrong with you.

I think there is something wrong with you dictating how people should have sex and continually asserting your belief that sex is for making babies when it's not.

Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy, only the risk. Risk =/= result, as pregnancy is not guaranteed every time you have sex, so there is no responsibility for the woman to be, or stay, pregnant.

I believe Moniquill puts it nicely:

"Consent to sex=/=Consent to sperm in the uterus. Consent to sperm in the uterus=/=Consent to conception. Consent to conception=/=consent to implantation. Consent to implantation=/= consent to pregnancy. Consent to pregnancy=/= consent to carry to term. Consent, by its nature, must be EXPRESS and ONGOING. It can be withdrawn, and unless it's directly spelled out, it cannot be assumed."

Women cannot control if, when, or HOW they conceive. Fault does not exist there. Sex is not the only source of pregnancy.

Sex also has many functions, none of them a primary purpose unless chosen by the couple.

Here are the functions of sex, in no order:
Fun
Exercise
Pleasure
Pro-creation
Bonding
Spiritual
Experimental
Passing time
Relief
Relaxation

And humans are not the only ones who have sex for reasons other than pro-creation: READ.

Do not assume every unwanted pregnancy is the result of consensual sex. They may result due to sexual abuse, rape, or the contraception/birth control simply failed.

Thus, due to freedom of choice and personal morals, abortion is a right and a choice for all women.

[Kata Samoes]

Barely_evil

Do we give the mother the legal right to kill the two-year- old daughter who is a burden to her? Why and how can we give her the legal right to kill the two-month-old daughter living inside her who is a burden to her?

Gender is not existent at two months, for one.

The born child is not a fetus, where the fetus is there UNWANTED. The born child is not, nor is it violating her body. Bad argument.

Barely_evil

Think of the logic of the inevitable extension of such a freedom to kill. We could solve poverty by killing unwanted poor people, or religious or political groups, or those too old, too burdensome, and on and on . . .

Fetii are not people, they would not feel nor experience any pain or death as the born would. Fail.

Barely_evil

Women have the duty not to kill their unborn babies.

Bullshit. Prove it.

Barely_evil

Murder (by abortion or any other name) should be illegal in a moral society.

Murder's a very specific legal term. Abortion =/= Murder.

Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Since murder is a legal term, and not a moral one, it is legally defined in the US, Canada, UK, and parts of Europe as above: the "illegal killing of another person with malicious intent."

Abortion is legal. Murder is not.
Abortion involves a fetus. Murder involves a person.
Abortion patients have varying intents. Murderers have one.

By the legal definition considering who is a person, they must be born alive. A fetus is not outside of the womb unless born. When born, it gains legal personhood.

Even then, the action would have to have a malicious intent, which cannot be proven what the intent was during elective abortions.

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Kata Samoes

Murder's a very specific legal term. Abortion =/= Murder.

Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Since murder is a legal term, and not a moral one, it is legally defined in the US, Canada, UK, and parts of Europe as above: the "illegal killing of another person with malicious intent."

Abortion is legal. Murder is not.
Abortion involves a fetus. Murder involves a person.
Abortion patients have varying intents. Murderers have one.

By the legal definition considering who is a person, they must be born alive. A fetus is not outside of the womb unless born. When born, it gains legal personhood.

Even then, the action would have to have a malicious intent, which cannot be proven what the intent was during elective abortions.

Hate to nitpick Kata, but after researching, I found a much more useful, and accurate legal definition for murder. I think it'd be better suited to your interests to use it to deny abortion as murder, as it specifically spells it out in the definition. I've added bolding and size for emphasis on what's most relevant to this debate

Law.com says

Murder
n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority. In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute, many states consider a killing in which there is torture, movement of the person before the killing (kidnapping) or the death of a police officer or prison guard, or it was as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), to be first degree murder, with or without premeditation and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life of others (such as firing a gun into a crowd or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. A charge of murder requires that the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus. Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought.

[Kata Samoes]

Heart of the Fallen Angel

*bulk*

Thanks, I'll use that in the future.

[WitheringRoseOfDecay]

Barely_evil

I highly recommend you have a hysterectomy if you don't want your body used against your consent.

When you can consent to sex and not consent to it's reaction (sex=baby), I think there is something very wrong with you.

i highly recommend you stay the ******** out of my bedroom AND my uterus. consent to sex IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE consent to pregnancy. get that through your thick skull.

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Kata Samoes

Heart of the Fallen Angel

*bulk*

Thanks, I'll use that in the future.

No problem, I'm just get royally pissed anytime someone throws around a word like murder, which has a very strict definition in the legal world, then apply it to something it doesn't fit in any way. Anyways, I went and found the most accurate legal definition, since this is a legal debate, and applied it as such in the strictest form of the word.

[FriedRooster]

Barely_evil

I highly recommend you have a hysterectomy if you don't want your body used against your consent.

When you can consent to sex and not consent to it's reaction (sex=baby), I think there is something very wrong with you.

*rapes*

[Raina Luxe]

WitheringRoseOfDecay

Barely_evil

I highly recommend you have a hysterectomy if you don't want your body used against your consent.

When you can consent to sex and not consent to it's reaction (sex=baby), I think there is something very wrong with you.

i highly recommend you stay the ******** out of my bedroom AND my uterus. consent to sex IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE consent to pregnancy. get that through your thick skull.

I was not directing any verbage toward you, your bedroom, your mom or so on. How come you have to be so vulgar anyway? I haven't spoken to you and I hate to read your responses where you quote my posts and use such vulgarity.

Back on topic, you don't have a uterus, you are a man, or atleast I hope you are no woman.

And one last thing for you to get through your thick skull, if you have sex (and you are a woman), you know that there's a probability of pregnancy, consensual or not, you know there are chances of it happening. You know the cause, you know how you can end up. I have no empathy for a person who has your attitude.

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Barely_evil

I was not directing any verbage toward you, your bedroom, your mom or so on. How come you have to be so vulgar anyway? I haven't spoken to you and I hate to read your responses where you quote my posts and use such vulgarity.

Back on topic, you don't have a uterus, you are a man, or atleast I hope you are no woman.

And one last thing for you to get through your thick skull, if you have sex (and you are a woman), you know that there's a probability of pregnancy, consensual or not, you know there are chances of it happening. You know the cause, you know how you can end up. I have no empathy for a person who has your attitude.

I have sex almost daily with 0% chance of pregnancy, and I am a woman, then again, it's impossible for a biological female to impregnate another biological female.

[WitheringRoseOfDecay]

Barely_evil

WitheringRoseOfDecay

Barely_evil

I highly recommend you have a hysterectomy if you don't want your body used against your consent.

When you can consent to sex and not consent to it's reaction (sex=baby), I think there is something very wrong with you.

i highly recommend you stay the ******** out of my bedroom AND my uterus. consent to sex IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE consent to pregnancy. get that through your thick skull.

I was not directing any verbage toward you, your bedroom, your mom or so on. How come you have to be so vulgar anyway? I haven't spoken to you and I hate to read your responses where you quote my posts and use such vulgarity.

Back on topic, you don't have a uterus, you are a man, or atleast I hope you are no woman.

And one last thing for you to get through your thick skull, if you have sex (and you are a woman), you know that there's a probability of pregnancy, consensual or not, you know there are chances of it happening. You know the cause, you know how you can end up. I have no empathy for a person who has your attitude.

hey dumbass, i'm female. are you blind or just normally this idiotic? my attitude is bad? who's the one who doesn't care about her own gender? who's the one who thinks feoti are more important than women? not i. you're a disgrace to my gender.

[Raina Luxe]

RubberDuckOfHell

Barely_evil

Do we give the mother the legal right to kill the two-year- old daughter who is a burden to her? Why and how can we give her the legal right to kill the two-month-old daughter living inside her who is a burden to her?

Think of the logic of the inevitable extension of such a freedom to kill. We could solve poverty by killing unwanted poor people, or religious or political groups, or those too old, too burdensome, and on and on . . .

Women have the duty not to kill their unborn babies.

Murder (by abortion or any other name) should be illegal in a moral society.

Ok, I am sorry, but this is the weakest, most irrelevant argument I have seen yet.

There a distinct difference between a two-year-old toddler and a two-month-old fetus. Sentience, plus the fact that the two-year-old is BORN. Same with unwanted poor people, religious or political groups, the elderly, the mentally handicapped, the mentally insane, etc., etc., etc.

And what duty do I have not to kill unborn fetuses? By the way, it's a FETUS. A BABY is that cute babbling, dribbling, cooing, crying, pooping thing that everyone goes crazy over.

Murder and abortion are not the same. MURDER is the killing of one PERSON by another with MALICE AFORETHOUGHT. Abortion is the termination or the ending of a pregnancy. Hey, while we're calling abortion murder, let's call miscarriages manslaughter. I mean it's the same as calling abortion murder. arrow I mean miscarriage is unintended, manslaughter is unintended, therefore it should be manslaughter right?

Manslaughter is by definition an action of criminal neglect that leads to a death. You don't have to take any action to have a miscarriage.

Going to the doctor and asking for an abortion does take forethought.

You don't just end up there by accident.

You don't neglect your pregnancy in some way and "oops," have an abortion.
No matter how you feed it to me, you are not going to justify abortion, except for in your own mind.
That's what people do, they justify their wrongdoings, no matter how silly it sounds to everyone else, they convince themselves that they have done nothing wrong by displacing the blame.
Sorry but you just don't jive with me.