The Abortion Debate

[xlx Viper xlx]

Okay,I've missed quite a bit of the debate(Well,I don't feel like reading all 550 pages,so..)

To start off, since I don't fully know everyone's opinion because of it, I'll just say I am for abortion. Why do you ask? Because, in some situations it's just a lot more convienant. Say,we have 13 year old Rachel here, comes home in some never before seen car. A few marks on her, like she had been tied down or something. A few days later, she finally tells her parents that she had been raped, pretty bad, and she was pregnant now, because of it.

Now, there is a situation where I believe abortion is okay, cause for one, she's way to young to have to deal with a kid. Put it up for adoption then,you might say? Well, think about the kid now. Wouldn't he or she at least want to be with her mom? And even if he/she was, they wouldn't have a real father in the scene. Plus Rachel could remember that experience anytime she saw her kid.That's where I'm for abortion.

Now, if Rachel were to come home perfectly fine, and very happy, in her boyfriend's car,and a few days later, she finally admits that her and her boyfriend had had sex several times, without protection, and she was now pregnant. Well, there is where I don't think abortion is right.

There are a few other situations where I agree and disagree, but that pretty much summerizes it.(Now if only I knew how to spell that word. xp )

So, with that said, that's where I stand.

[JANUX 99]

The Blue Blue

I descern that since conscience, religion, parents, elderly, suffering, government, and god, are not uniform, therefore the ultimate authority cannot be any of those.
I do have one other question about your post, and that is this, are our perceptions created by us alone, or does the world around us also contribute to the formation of our perceptions?

Indeed. Agreed then.
Though I do feel that all in all these sources come to a whole in conjunction to how humans learn social behaviors. Though it would seem that negative consequences seem to be a teaching of it's own.
Now per your question, I wouldn't ask a question like that simply because our perceptions and experiences is what shapes our psyche. So naturally we can assume that every experience makes the difference.

Quote:

I have not had a near death experience, but how are we who are alive to know that being dead would be any worse? We all die eventually, so it is foolish to fear death. It is inevitalbe. I understand why we fear death, since it is an unknown force, and we naturally are afraid of the unknown. Who is to say that if a fetus is self aware and able to feel fear and pain that it does not fear being born? That would be an unknown event for this new being (unless you believe in reincarnation) and as such would most likely be as terrifying as the thought of death is to us.
Could you please repeate the question that I have failed to answer so that I can attempt to answer it?

Having experienced a near death experience and the fear of dying, I can't say that it isn't. Though the end result is the unknown, the fear is brought on by the concept of being gone. Non-existant or simply beyond asleap. Also, a part of that fear is usually the means of death. Since afterall, a good fear of the hazardous seems to be instinctual more than it is a self-awareness of danger.
But see, Animals fear death as well. But not because they are aware of it, but because it's a natural instinct of life-forms to try to survive.

Life is the Opposite of Death. If we are living now, what reason is there not to be afraid of Death due to instincts let alone true fear of Death itself.

Now, I don't believe being born is a fear because being born is not a known factor. However, despite knowing what death is.. It would seem that in face of danger, a sentient being can still feel fear because of the unknown; or in better words.. That which it isn't comfortable with.
If domestic violence can make an effect on the Fetus, why wouldn't Death? It's known that a Fetus can feel it's mother's pain. Not literally but quite in tuned to what's really happening.
If a mother is wanting to have an abortion, and a fetus is possibly developed enough to sense anything, isn't it logical to assume the possibility that the Fetus has felt rejection also?

And the question was this:

"What stage is a homosapien offspring a Fetus [what weeks]?
When are the earliest signs of organ development?
How early has it been recorded that Fetii respond to Stimuli such as noises, vibrations and even stress from the mother?

Is a Fetus distinguishably human?
Can it feel pain?
Does it eventually help to restore a proper equilibrium during pregnancy?

If a Fetus is just property like guardianship over a child, why is it still considered psychologically damaging to inflict self harm?
How is Abortion not an infringement on bodily integrity and thus not self-mutilation? "

These questions drive to a point. Which is obvious just from the questions. But in short, I'm simply trying to establish a connection that we can understand. Because I'm tired of explaining basics that are rejected simply because they aren't universal [though somehow nothing seems to be even though reality will never be universal for everyone].
This is the defining moment of how we proceed with this discussion.

Quote:

[1] But morals differ between people, and therefore what I find moral, while could be found Immoral by you, is still moral in my eye, while it may not be in yours.
[2] I realize that this is almost stepping back into the realm of self-justification which we have already covered is negative, but since morals are not uniform and everyone has different morals, it isn't sensible to use morals as an excuse to do, or to not do anything.

1: Ok, look.. I'm starting to get annoyed with looking at morals this way. For one, I've established that there are alot of subjective morals let alone morals that are unethical. This does not insinuate anything other than that morals aren't absolute unless they are universal amongst cultures [personal morals don't count because there is no freakin way all morals can be absolute. And since there are corrupted people out there.. I guess I have to irrationally include them as legitimate reasons why there aren't absolutes to morals allegedly.
The point is that there is such a thing as moral absolutes; simply because such morals span beyond cultural, age, gender, sexual orientation or even financial class differences.
No matter what era or what people it is, human society has allways devised a system of law and socially defined what public and private morality can look like [there is nothing wrong with this. And to further slam your point, look at how you're discussing abortion in an abortion thread as though it's some God-Given right simply because of personal ownership of one's being and the ability to choose for yourself. Somehow, that just suggests a moral absolute and nothing more. Human rights aren't Universal, as characterized by the fact that not everyone shares them (ridiculous and absurd in my eyes). Thus why should anyone have to respect something subjective when their own subjective morals can't be respected?]. And this is to say that Socially, government establishes what it's culture will look like.
Regardless though.. There are only a few universal morals that seem to be instinctual more so than consious choice: Respect, Sacrifice, Proper Parenting techniques [what not to do perhaps?], Responsibility, maturity and even sexuality. Though there's a host of more things that are related but maybe not directly affected by a consious choice as those previously listed.

2: I don't agree with that. Though you don't have to use your morals as the foundation for your judgement, the reason why they even are called morals is because they are beliefs you hold true. True enough that you practice it least you be another Sinner [that term is used loosely. Read the definition before making any comments regarding religion specifically].
I find nothing wrong with resorting to your morals for understanding, making a judgement call or differentiating yourself from that which you feel is wrong from what you feel is right.
Though highly subjective and even heavily faulty sometimes, there are some morals that don't seem to be changed by time. To refute such is to accept the notion that this word was in complete and total anarchy [which we have no proof of] or a specific area was instead. Either way though, refraining from murdering your parent because you don't feel your anger is justifying such emotional rage is not an immoral or even unethical thing to do. Which seems to be the basis of establishing what is even possibly universal let alone a ******** up moral basis for others.
I think this is essential in understanding the need to understand that there are such a thing as absolutes; the problem is that you're too blinded with all the other crap to realize that I'm not insinuating any or even all morals are absolute but rather the common-sense things in life that not only keep you out of trouble with the law, but with the town.

Quote:

Concepts of right and wrong are put into us because of punishments that we recieve. We don't steal because daddy spanked us for taking Tommy's bat. We don't hit girls because mommy yelled at us and daddy spanked us.

Your example got confusing but I think I got the point.
But see, I agree. I believe that parents and other social influences instill all sorts of concepts within us all. Most heavily concepts derrived from negative experience. Since afterall, that's an integral part of learning and not having retarded judgement [honestly.. What person knows something is extremely bad for them but does it willingly aside from addiction, forced or being unable to understand the problem they are having?].
Though Right and Wrong itself isn't a hard concept. All that's needed is a negative experience to establish what happend that was wrong. Just for knowledge. Even still, maturity can grant the knowledge without the actual experience. Hence why people who haven't been in car accidents put on their seat-belts still [yeah.. Not everyone, but let's not go into such a frivilous argument of subjectivity. Hopefully now you understand why it's fruitless for either of us unless subjectivity is the difference of understanding the truth]. Same for anyone who does anything to prevent a negative experience. They are simply being responsible to themselves and to others possibly too.

Right and Wrong is a concept of Human psychology that establishes our ability to do things right in the first place. It's not just moral background it's also the daily things we do. From cooking to cleaning ourselves. I'm sure you could agree with this example if not the concept:

A tooth brush was specifically made for your mouth; not your colon. Infact, it's wrong to use it such a way because of the dangers of both hygenie and injury possibly sustained from using it incorrectly. Furthermore, this is not the intended design and thus isn't properly suited for the task. Thus the action is wrong.

Quote:

What is it that makes a person then? Please explain.

Oh boy.. I can allready feel the responses from this one.
And since I've had such trouble with people being logical in their rebuttals, I'm going to have to just say that it's too subjective for me to explain in my own words; since my own words are based on definitions and Scientific and Philosophical Reasoning. All of which point out that personhood can only be classified by physique. Not self-awareness. Otherwise you still pose the question of if born babies are people then and by such a deffinition they aren't. Thus partial-birth abortions should be legal still and so should infanticide. Which is absolutely absurd for a number of reasons including sentience, suffering and the killing of a baby [as opposed to a Fetus for the layman]. But I'm sure you agree that such is illogical.
But still, personhood can't be defined as you want it to be. Otherwise it has been long defined including medically. And somehow, no definitions of person has been changed to dissclude a Fetus. Even medically. So naturally, I don't care what anyone else has to say regarding opinionated views. Unless I have scientific proof or even an article to a study that demonstrates that homosapien Fetii can't be classified as people, I will continue to stress the fact that person isn't defined by self-awareness.
My conclusion is this: Personhood isn't the true argument. It's sentience and Self-awareness that seems to make the moral turning point for even Pro-Choice people. Except those who truly feel a child is property up untill it's dissconnection from the woman [absolutely absurd to me. Children aren't property. They are people who need guardianship to enstill morals, good behavior and discipline. How is killing your child good parenting? I want someone to show me where a parent killing their child is regarded as a good thing [notice I didn't say Fetus. Anyone who can't recognize the difference in the implication of my point with the two words should refrain from responding].

Quote:

It is illogical to consume more plants and animals than is absolutely neccessary for your survival because it will have a larger impact on the ecosystem then just consuming the plants and animals than are necessary.

it's illogical to consume more than what is sustainable let alone what is needed. But see, that's just one of the many challanges of being Human. Sacred regard for human life means a bigger population boom. Samaritian work seems to just prolong death, further increasing the population boom. Outreach and help to neighbors and friends and family just seems to keep things better and working longer.
So logically.. Being humans, we have to be responsible enough to take care of our planet, conserve on resources and to be unified to better our race as a whole.
Too bad that'll never happen and in this world it would have many negative effects.
But see, that's the point. It's illogical to be irresponsible. Not implying anything specific other than what was said.. But we certainly could go from there.

Quote:

true, but as long as you understand the point that I was attempting to make, that is that it is not wrong to want to find a way out of the situations that we get ourselves into.

I wouldn't say it's wrong. I'd say it's instinctual. But isn't it for more than just Humans? Suggesting this is an animal instinct that's natural to us because confinement isn't a designed part of nature? [ummm... Anyone concerned about Naturalistic Fallacies should keep quiet on this one. Though the concept of Natural is delluted, the idea of what is from Nature and what is man-made is not. If no destinction is going to be recognized that this is the concept thought of, then please.. Don't even waste my time making comments about such an issue because I wont respond].
And you failed to address the most important point of that example and so did I.

How and Why did you end up in the room in the first place?
Is this some sick joke from a serial killer? Or is it an act of God done in your sleep to teach you a lesson? Did you walk in there on your own or did someone force you into the room?
Is the outside refusing to let you out? Or is it saying you have to fulfill a certain objective since you're in the room?
Maybe possibly the room doesn't exist and you're confining your own self mentally?

[xlx Viper xlx]

Quote:

Having experienced a near death experience and the fear of dying, I can't say that it isn't. Though the end result is the unknown, the fear is brought on by the concept of being gone. Non-existant or simply beyond asleap. Also, a part of that fear is usually the means of death. Since afterall, a good fear of the hazardous seems to be instinctual more than it is a self-awareness of danger.
But see, Animals fear death as well. But not because they are aware of it, but because it's a natural instinct of life-forms to try to survive.[/color

Life is the Opposite of Death. If we are living now, what reason is there not to be afraid of Death due to instincts let alone true fear of Death itself.

Meh, I'm at the starving point again,and I want a shower, so I barely read much of your post, maybe another paragraph after that one...

But, all I have to say is not everyone fears dieing. I sure don't. My mom had had a spree of wrecking cars,kinda wrecked her car once, then really wrecked it, got a rental, and here's the sitatuion. We're going to school, pulling into the parking lot, and well,she never saw the car she pulled in front of us. She pulls in front of it by about 10 feet, the car is going about 50 MPH. Now, if it were to run into our car, it would've been on my side. But, I didn't grab for anything,I didn't flinch, blink, nothing. I just said "Mom, you know a car is about to hit us now,right?"

ow, some god-given miracle, the car missed us, but for that moment, I wasn't scared about anything. Sure,it probably wasn't gonna be a fatal crash, but still,I didn't have the slightest fear for it.

So, what about a Fetus?You say it's not ad developed as us,right? We know it has the development to think, but how do we know it knows what to think about? What it know it can think about?

It doesn't know what death is, so how would it know to be afraid of it? It lacks all the knowledge to make any decision, espically what to think about. Sure, it may think it's hungry, but it doesn't know it's hungry. It knows it feels a slight pain in it's abdomen. Well, filling that in with the very small knowledge it has, cause it wouldn't know the definition of pain or any of that, but it would be able to feel and recognize it when it was present.

I'll comment on the rest later, but I wanna go take a shower and grab some lunch. See yall later.

[menstrual popsicle]

This last Christmas, I had an abortion. I'm 17. Lots of crap going on with this obviously...and I dont know if I can add anything to this discussion but my own experience.
First off, I'm pro-choice for all the logical reasons listed on the first page, but also because without abortion, most countries would be even worse off than they are poverty/living conditions wise. Our planet is over-populating, and some people really can't afford a baby.
Even knowing this...I don't feel good about what I did. It all felt very unfortunate...to say the least. If I were a few years older and had a steady job, wern't dependant on others, I would have kept my child. I would be five months pregnant right now...and I do cry about it alot. But that doesn't mean I regret what I did. I couldn't have been the parent I wanted to be at this age. I just want to see people completely against it open their eyes a little more...be a little more understanding.

[JANUX 99]

CheezyOn3

Quote:

Having experienced a near death experience and the fear of dying, I can't say that it isn't. Though the end result is the unknown, the fear is brought on by the concept of being gone. Non-existant or simply beyond asleap. Also, a part of that fear is usually the means of death. Since afterall, a good fear of the hazardous seems to be instinctual more than it is a self-awareness of danger.
But see, Animals fear death as well. But not because they are aware of it, but because it's a natural instinct of life-forms to try to survive.[/color

Life is the Opposite of Death. If we are living now, what reason is there not to be afraid of Death due to instincts let alone true fear of Death itself.

Meh, I'm at the starving point again,and I want a shower, so I barely read much of your post, maybe another paragraph after that one...

But, all I have to say is not everyone fears dieing. I sure don't. My mom had had a spree of wrecking cars,kinda wrecked her car once, then really wrecked it, got a rental, and here's the sitatuion. We're going to school, pulling into the parking lot, and well,she never saw the car she pulled in front of us. She pulls in front of it by about 10 feet, the car is going about 50 MPH. Now, if it were to run into our car, it would've been on my side. But, I didn't grab for anything,I didn't flinch, blink, nothing. I just said "Mom, you know a car is about to hit us now,right?"

ow, some god-given miracle, the car missed us, but for that moment, I wasn't scared about anything. Sure,it probably wasn't gonna be a fatal crash, but still,I didn't have the slightest fear for it.

So, what about a Fetus?You say it's not ad developed as us,right? We know it has the development to think, but how do we know it knows what to think about? What it know it can think about?

It doesn't know what death is, so how would it know to be afraid of it? It lacks all the knowledge to make any decision, espically what to think about. Sure, it may think it's hungry, but it doesn't know it's hungry. It knows it feels a slight pain in it's abdomen. Well, filling that in with the very small knowledge it has, cause it wouldn't know the definition of pain or any of that, but it would be able to feel and recognize it when it was present.

I'll comment on the rest later, but I wanna go take a shower and grab some lunch. See yall later.

As per your example of the potential car wreck, it's not the same as a life-threatening situation that calls for action or the consequence is death.
Being shot at is a great example. Though one might not be thinking of the consequences of being hit by a bullet, the sheer fact that one knows what a gun means is enough to show that the fear turns instinctual due to the lack of consious thought on the lines of, "I need to duck and cover behind something so that I don't get struck in my head".
Training could make this instinct for evasive action for survival much more reactive and quick.. But in general, people don't go through the details. They think of one thing, fight or flight. From there it's a obstacle course of actions to keep the urge to survive an urge and not a faded thought just like the rest of your consiousness.

Now the rest of what you said you really have a good point on. I full heartedly agree on that stance. How in the world can we know?
But, I must add that the ability to feel comes before the ability to distinguish. If you felt pain for the first time, yet never did a host of other things, how in the world could you logically discern one thing from the other as much as just respond to the stimuli?
Afterall, negative stimuli does adversely affect fetii in the early stages. I think it's not irrational to question if Fetii can also feel seperation anxiety, even in the womb.

[xlx Viper xlx]

Meh,I don't really know how to ocmment on that, I pretty much agree with it..And the car crash thing was just an example,a bad one I guess(lol), but just to say that not everyone is afraid of death, given the thought of metting it, or become close to it.Now anyway...

The only thing I can really think of to say, is that,sure,maybe they do feel seperation anxiety,but,once more they wouldn't know what it is.They wouldn't know who to feel seperated from, what they were missing.Or would they even miss it though? They wouldn't have anything to miss. So,how would they know to miss it?

It all just keeps coming back to the one fact though, no matter how hard you try to get around it...We can never tell, and we probably will never know. We can't go ask some scientist if they felt lonely, if they felt as if something were missing back when they were a fetus in their mom's womb. Noone remembers that.

So, *sigh* this is probably one of the harder topics to find anything out about, what a fetus goes through,what it feels, all that...Some people now even, in their teens or as adults can't even describe how they feel about something, so,yeah,I hope you get my point about that...

[JANUX 99]

CheezyOn3

Meh,I don't really know how to ocmment on that, I pretty much agree with it..And the car crash thing was just an example,a bad one I guess(lol), but just to say that not everyone is afraid of death, given the thought of metting it, or become close to it.Now anyway...

The only thing I can really think of to say, is that,sure,maybe they do feel seperation anxiety,but,once more they wouldn't know what it is.They wouldn't know who to feel seperated from, what they were missing.Or would they even miss it though? They wouldn't have anything to miss. So,how would they know to miss it?

It all just keeps coming back to the one fact though, no matter how hard you try to get around it...We can never tell, and we probably will never know. We can't go ask some scientist if they felt lonely, if they felt as if something were missing back when they were a fetus in their mom's womb. Noone remembers that.

So, *sigh* this is probably one of the harder topics to find anything out about, what a fetus goes through,what it feels, all that...Some people now even, in their teens or as adults can't even describe how they feel about something, so,yeah,I hope you get my point about that...

Absolutely. And I mind you that you've done an exceptional job answering questions and not straying from the point actually. Give yourself a pat on the back for that.
As per your point, I still agree with you. Though we know that a Fetus can feel, we don't know what it's consiousness has to 'think' about it [I use that word loosely].
I personally don't assume a Fetus can do the complex thinking of saying, "Mom doesn't want me" or even, "I'm being rejected". Though feelings are much more powerful than any thought or any words. Without it, how can you experience the truth behind words and thoughts?
Kinda frivilous, but the point is simply that it's the feelings that count. It's also the fact that it's a life and defined as a person; socially and logically. So all in all, regardless of my opinion of Abortion or people who obtain them, I am still thinking logically and with regards to social aspects. I don't think I'm wrong for being in the middle by saying Abortion is not allways appropriate and can be harmful. Just as harmful as the pregnancy itself. But I'm not justified in my reasoning unless I explain it.
Though despite my reasoning, my morals and conscience says that I should consider any and all other alternatives first. But the choice is on the chooser.
But I must say.. Abortion is too unfair for should-be father's. If not just unfair to the Fetii for the reason that we can put them through the only pain they'll know in their lives any longer.

[xlx Viper xlx]

lol,thanx..

But yeah, I think though, that it is kinda the father's responsability though, to be there for the mother, cause he's the one who put her to make the decision, so he'd better be there for her.At least help her decide if the decision is right, cause he is the physical reason for it happening.(Hope you understand what I mean by that)

But true, very true. Feelings are what empowers what we say, cause they set the mood,the tone, they're what you hear more than the actual words the person is speaking. But, how do we know what the fetus is feeling? Is it possible for the fetus to regret his or her life, before it's even born? For all we know, it could feel neglected, ignored, all that we feel. But, not everyone feels the same, so, how can we think that they feel the same, because they are us.They could be enjoying their time in the womb, or they could be hating it,who knows...

But that's one thing though, going back to the should-be-father's thing.How come you hear some girls saying they'd want to stay abstinant until a certain age, but you like never hear a guy saying that? Its because, we think as males, that we don't have to think of the consequences, because we get it off easy.Or do we? Our inability to sometimes see the consequences may lead to still not seeing them while we are facing them.That goes for males and females alike.

But yeah, I still feel that the lack of not knowing how a fetus feels, what it thinks, all that, is just limiting so much that could alter the way we think, what we would do.It would be a lot better if we could somehow tell if the fetus would want to grow up in whatever conditions it would have to face, knowing that if everything could've waited, it would more than likely be in better conditions....

Sorry if I kinda lost you there, I'm starting to kinda lose my train of thought... sweatdrop

[JANUX 99]

CheezyOn3

lol,thanx..

But yeah, I think though, that it is kinda the father's responsability though, to be there for the mother, cause he's the one who put her to make the decision, so he'd better be there for her.At least help her decide if the decision is right, cause he is the physical reason for it happening.(Hope you understand what I mean by that)

Yeah, I got that.
I agree fullheartedly once again as well. I've once expressed my feelings of how not helping out women or my significant other makes me feel emasculated. Which at the ripe age of 20, is not a good thing to feel if you want to be confident [which most of us know is required to be more masculine]. So naturally, I would feel horrible about myself if I didn't stand by my girl, even if her choice was to obtain an Abortion [doesn't mean I got to like it. But I certainly should be a good lover and make my own sacrifices, with not expectation of compensation. You dig?

Quote:

But true, very true. Feelings are what empowers what we say, cause they set the mood,the tone, they're what you hear more than the actual words the person is speaking. But, how do we know what the fetus is feeling? Is it possible for the fetus to regret his or her life, before it's even born? For all we know, it could feel neglected, ignored, all that we feel. But, not everyone feels the same, so, how can we think that they feel the same, because they are us.They could be enjoying their time in the womb, or they could be hating it,who knows...

And you still drive a good point. Which is how do we know what is actually being felt? Though we may know an emotion is present, we don't know the consequences of any of them ourselves. for all we know, it could be one thing or another.
Very true. But we still have to assess the situation by asking ourselves what we do and can know. And in reality, humans know enough to the extent that we can predict and determine certain characteristics that on average have a similar effect. Still keeping in mind what else can happen and making objective and appropriate guidance to encircle all the feasible. Which is why fetal growth is HIGHLY important when the motive is to have a child. Doctors can't stress enough to women on how to properly take care of their developing baby. From the obvious like smoking and drinking all the way down to social interaction.
It's not just the Fetii physical health Humans are concerned with, it's the emotional, physical and spiritual health. A good body, a good mind and a good connection with family seems to be utterly important all the way through the last stages of maturity.

Quote:

But that's one thing though, going back to the should-be-father's thing.How come you hear some girls saying they'd want to stay abstinant until a certain age, but you like never hear a guy saying that? Its because, we think as males, that we don't have to think of the consequences, because we get it off easy.Or do we? Our inability to sometimes see the consequences may lead to still not seeing them while we are facing them.That goes for males and females alike.

Too true.
Which is why I don't advocate for abortion. Because I know it's not the healthiest alternative; nor the most humane. Becuase death is never humane unless you are suffering. Otherwise it makes no sense or is cruel. Even with criminals, because you have to replace cruelty with cruelty to stop a chain of cruelty. Since after all, violence seems to be the only answer that Humans truly understand without complaint of victimizing.
Though one must wonder.. What should one do to be responsible? Of course there is no single answer.. But a good peice of advice would allways be to listen. Stop being so concerned about what you think and listen. From that you might be more concerned about being objective than selfish.

Quote:

But yeah, I still feel that the lack of not knowing how a fetus feels, what it thinks, all that, is just limiting so much that could alter the way we think, what we would do.It would be a lot better if we could somehow tell if the fetus would want to grow up in whatever conditions it would have to face, knowing that if everything could've waited, it would more than likely be in better conditions....

Sorry if I kinda lost you there, I'm starting to kinda lose my train of thought... sweatdrop

It would, but such thought is not possible. Remember one key element, the lack of ability to form communication. Not the ability to communicate physically as much as just mentally. So naturally, if we found some way of 'reading' their thoughts, it would still be empathic type readings. Not cognitive speech or even distinguished desire as opposed to instinctual urge. Which still suggests intelligence.

[xlx Viper xlx]

Your 20?No wonder you seem so much more knowledgeable than me..Anyway...

It seems we continue to agree with each other.


One thing that just popped into my mind, how do we know that we are the reason they are developing the right way? And you ever really know if you did everything right till it's to late.And, what if you mess up, and they are pretty much guaranteed something they will regret, wether they will grow up feeling something that say, could continue to put them in depression? Well, I feel like I'm leaving something out from that, but still, what if something does go wrong, what do you do then?Wether it was your fault or not.

But, with being human beings, we are subject to never knowing how to solve problems, because we aren't perfect.But,if we were, we wouldn't have any problems to solve. That's more than likely the reason we fight cruelty with cruelty. We remember that good ol phrase from songs and movies, to fight fire with fire. And we take it to heart, for some stupid reason. Or we just cotinue to think irrationally, and we mess up because of that. Well, there had to be some irrational thinking somewhere to lead to needing an abortion...

Well,if science were advanced enough to like, how you see the baby in the womb, before it's born, to be able to communicate like that.While it was still in the womb, use some type of recognizable language that it would understand.Or, would it be capable of understanding do you ask.Do dolphins go to school to recognize the sonar waves from other dolphins? So maybe there would be some way to communicate with the fetus.It might understand us then, but would we understand it? Probably not, because we wouldn't know how it felt,we wouldn't be able to fully comprehend what it could tell us.


But yeah,I feel like I left a lot out I wanted to say that time...I'm starting to kinda run out of thing to say, cause we agree on everything,so...Meh... confused

[JANUX 99]

CheezyOn3

Your 20?No wonder you seem so much more knowledgeable than me..Anyway...

It seems we continue to agree with each other.


One thing that just popped into my mind, how do we know that we are the reason they are developing the right way? And you ever really know if you did everything right till it's to late.And, what if you mess up, and they are pretty much guaranteed something they will regret, wether they will grow up feeling something that say, could continue to put them in depression? Well, I feel like I'm leaving something out from that, but still, what if something does go wrong, what do you do then?Wether it was your fault or not.

Wish I had sources for everything I know. At least then I could share the knowledge much more accurately.

Well one correlation to knowing how our supposed treatment is going, is the associated characteristics of a healthy baby and an unhealthy baby. Such as specifics that are associated with certain behaviors/habbits. I mean, it's not that hard for a doctor to figure such things out before birth let alone after. Which is good since some people are just ignorant to some facts and need medical advice from a professional anyways. You know?
One thing that's not guranteed though, is that a child will turn out a certain way emotionally. Though it's a good chance they may have certain characteristics associated with behaviors/habbits of their parents when they were young or still in the womb, how in the world could you make that connection when the child is past the age of 2? Though I guess that doesn't change the fact that you can traumatize a child at a young age. I guess the reason for this is because of the physical process in which the brain forms distinctly into a personality. Every moment in life somehow affecting another moment in life from before birth.

Quote:

But, with being human beings, we are subject to never knowing how to solve problems, because we aren't perfect.But,if we were, we wouldn't have any problems to solve. That's more than likely the reason we fight cruelty with cruelty. We remember that good ol phrase from songs and movies, to fight fire with fire. And we take it to heart, for some stupid reason. Or we just cotinue to think irrationally, and we mess up because of that. Well, there had to be some irrational thinking somewhere to lead to needing an abortion...

EXACTLY!
Though mistakes happen, the mistake is still not the logical explanation for pregnancy. But see, people are too afraid to face the truth: To truly be as sexually responsible as possible without being self-mutilating, one has to prevent the cause of conception. Fertilization. And how does that happen? By force. Though not violence like rape is, it's still force. A willing force to neglect the numbers that say you could get caught up in a fiasco of financial burden, emotional stress and physical stress.
I must know.. How is abortion a responsible alternative when there is something that's also a responsible alternative? And how is it even responsible when something preventing it's occurance is viewed as the responsible alternative to an unwanted pregnancy?
With that said, how am I logically to think of Abortion as healthy either? It's not like I view pregnancy or Abortion as healthy; but apparently for alot of people it's healthier to go through the pregnancy than not. Which makes me wonder how anyone has the right to say that Abortion isn't harmful [blatant contradiction in itself. Oxymoronic if anything] but pregnancy is. Whatever.. Both are harmful, depending on the person it can be fatal or extremely injurious.

Quote:

Well,if science were advanced enough to like, how you see the baby in the womb, before it's born, to be able to communicate like that.While it was still in the womb, use some type of recognizable language that it would understand.Or, would it be capable of understanding do you ask.Do dolphins go to school to recognize the sonar waves from other dolphins? So maybe there would be some way to communicate with the fetus.It might understand us then, but would we understand it? Probably not, because we wouldn't know how it felt,we wouldn't be able to fully comprehend what it could tell us.

I see where you're going with that.
Though Dolphins communicate using their instincts in conjunction with whatever awareness of dolphin they comprehend in their head, Humans have a much much much more diverse cognitive process. Which strangely enough we can communicate through all our senses at once; including a sixth one: Empathic sensory.
Unlike animals.. Humans can communicate emotional status just as a host of other psychological characteristics.
But I gurantee you that even if there was a way to 'coomunicate' with Fetii, nothing much would come of it. Because Fetii have no idea how to communicate. They only know how to demonstrate what's happening on the inside. I feel the same is for a 1 year old. Though their cognitive abilities have shot way up from birth, they still are in the 'dark' psychologically. They are still learning how to be, in a sense, more human. You know what I mean?

Quote:

But yeah,I feel like I left a lot out I wanted to say that time...I'm starting to kinda run out of thing to say, cause we agree on everything,so...Meh... confused

Never a bad thing to discuss something you agree on with someone. Sometimes thsoe talks create the most heated of discussions that are truly enlightening, informative and civil.

[Nethilia]

Guitargirlx3x3

Can't help but notice that everyone who votes to let unborn babies die has already been born and has nothing to lose.

Well, that's how logic works. People who can have opinions on abortion have to be born, because a fetus has no ability to think.

And I notice that alot of anti-choicers don't want to take in or help in anyway all these infants that would be born.

[xlx Viper xlx]

Yeah,that's what I was meaning. You can always tell the physical health of a baby, after it's born, and went through most of it's primary development, but what about the emotional status of it? A doctor can't make a call on that, and more than likely wouldn't be able to for a long time. And even at that, it could be wrong, because he woudln't be the baby.he wouldn't feel the same way, have the same judgement.
So,how do you know still,if everything went right before it's to late?And even then,it can still go wrong at any moment.Wether it's a fetus, or a 30 year old hard-working citizen.

Well, sometimes it's not a mistake, as in rape. Or irrational thinking, and just thinking sex is the best thing to do at the time. But either way, nothing should be done until your actually ready for it. And I've never herd of a 14 or 15 year old(or anytime around that age) being financially or emotionally ready for that, burden you could almost say. Cause it would be on the parents, to have to raise a child up from that age, still being children themselves.But, if it is something worth it, then abortion is the best way to go, but however, if it was some act of stupidity, you've just gotten into a big mess, that you'll have to deal with for a long time. So,why do we do that to ourselves? Why do we clutter our lives with all we need, and bring a new life into the whole mess? Cause we're naturally stupid, no matter how smart you think you are, it's just human nature to lack the intelligence, responsability, everything that we need.
Plus it's human nature to think what we want is more important than what we need.Thus becomes a lot of problems, for any situation....

Well,there may be some way to communicate with a fetus, if only we could get to it safely.(Be imaginative with that)
because, there could very well be something it understand, though it may lack the knowledge to know what it understands. It recognizes pain,right? So it could very well recognize something else, but not even know what it is that it's recognizing.


And yes, it is good to talk about something you agree upon, but it can kinda run into losing things to talk about. Because everything gets talked about a lot faster, than if you were actually debating a topic.

[JANUX 99]

Guitargirlx3x3

Can't help but notice that everyone who votes to let unborn babies die has already been born and has nothing to lose.

Nethillia

Well, that's how logic works. People who can have opinions on abortion have to be born, because a fetus has no ability to think.

That's not how logic works.
And the point is that it's people who can speak who are speaking for those who can't. And it's ironic how people pass judgement off onto others simply because they aren't affected.

Quote:

And I notice that alot of anti-choicers don't want to take in or help in anyway all these infants that would be born.

Wow, that's like 2% of the population.
Good thing I'm Pro-Life and not Anti-Choice. I'd be in that percentile myself. stare rolleyes

[Freedom Fire]

Tari

This last Christmas, I had an abortion. I'm 17. Lots of crap going on with this obviously...and I dont know if I can add anything to this discussion but my own experience.
First off, I'm pro-choice for all the logical reasons listed on the first page, but also because without abortion, most countries would be even worse off than they are poverty/living conditions wise. Our planet is over-populating, and some people really can't afford a baby.
Even knowing this...I don't feel good about what I did. It all felt very unfortunate...to say the least. If I were a few years older and had a steady job, wern't dependant on others, I would have kept my child. I would be five months pregnant right now...and I do cry about it alot. But that doesn't mean I regret what I did. I couldn't have been the parent I wanted to be at this age. I just want to see people completely against it open their eyes a little more...be a little more understanding.

You made a good decision. I mean, you feel bad about it, but no one ever said doing the right thing was easy. I read an article about a girl in your situation. She had an abortion, and she felt awful about it, but once she saw her friend have a child, she knew that getting an abortion was a good idea.