The Abortion Debate

[CalicoDream]

DivineFeline

So, here in your extended analogy, you have placed a moral absolute. Unless the fox (the woman) was forced into the trap, it was there because it was being stupid. Not because it took due care and still managed to get coaught, but because it was stupid. The only way to "force" someone to become pregnant is to rape her, otherwise it is just simply a risk one takes when having sex, and can be dealt with.

Essentially, your statement translates to "if a woman isn't raped, then she's pregnant because she was stupid."

What you say would be true if I had not immediately pointed out that the analogy was imperfect and directly stated my point that there are people who are unfairly left with child (e.g. rape victims, casual sexxers [hehehe, funny word] who prepare but encounter bad luck, etc. I really shouldn't have to be saying this) and then there are stupid people.

DivineFeline

Maybe you should re-read what you post. You stated quite blatently that only stupid women suffer from unwanted pregnancies, and yet, when we point that out, you say "no! My previous post explains it!". Meanwhile, your previous post again states that if a woman chooses to have sex and becomes pregnant, it's because she was stupid.

Oh please, I don't sound anywhere near that airy or desperate. And I most certainly would capitalize the "no" for emphasis.

My post accounts for people who are unfairly left with child (either by rape, bad luck despite preparation, etc.) and for stupid people who do NOT know all the risks, who do NOT put a lot of effort into prevention, etc.

I've said this, what, 5 times now?

[iFeared]

Rei, I am sorry for telling that Thio boy that is what you said. But I really must go.

Bye.

[-PluR-Zen]

Out of curiosity, how many people do you think there are that throw themselves into a sexual situation with nary a care for the outcome? (That is, whether or not the person becomes pregnant?)

Scarce few, I'd imagine.

[requietum ac adamo amor]

ThePeerOrlando

requietum ac adamo amor

DivineFeline

requietum ac adamo amor

1. Life will go on, regaurdless if people die. Outlawing abortion wont destroy the human race,

So, as long as it doesn't destroy the human race, a few women dying from unsafe abortions doesn't matter, does it?

Quote:

2. The government was made to work on the majority, hence the elections, hence the votes made by the senate to pass certain laws. Yes it was made to give the indavidual a voice, but in the long run money and numbers out do reality and justice.

Here's a question on this point: Do the desires of the majority override the needs of the minority?

Quote:

Seriously though, I never said pro-lifers were the mojority, I was only speaking hypotheticaly.

Lastly, I don't think abortion will be overturned, but if it is get over it; because it wont be the first or last injustice done to humanity.

So, just because there are other injustices happening mean that we deserve to have one more? Where's the logic in that?

1. No it doesn't matter, people die all the time, get over it.

2. Probably, I mean if 90% of males want a porno shop instead of a grocery store which do you think is going to pop up?

3. Its not that we deserve it, but that it happens. Do certain people who die nessearily deserve it? Life isn't fair.

1. So why haven't the Lifers gotten over it, and why aren't you telling them to stfu?

2. A grocery store. Because even if 90% of them WANT something, 100% of them NEED to eat. Your analogy is faulty.

3. So we're supposed to stop fighting if it ever happens? That flies in the face of everything about this country. We don't give up fighting. We're stubborn ******** like that.

1. Do you think pro-choicers would get over it if they lost? Do you think they would shut up? I don't tell pro-lifers to stfu because its like telling a blind man to look at something, it just isn't going to happen. neutral

2. Actualy socioty does go for what it wants more than what it needs, hence large houses, air conditioning, the internet, and more. Women don't need abortion, the want it, but pro-lifers don't want it and don't need it. If pro-lifers were the majority it would be overruled.

3. Yes, because if it was ever made illegal now it would have to have some amazing fact or evidence behind it, making it almost impossible to overturn.

[The Incorrigible Muffin]

SkynX

Out of curiosity, how many people do you think there are that throw themselves into a sexual situation with nary a care for the outcome? (That is, whether or not the person becomes pregnant?)

Scarce few, I'd imagine.

One would hope so, but there is really no way of knowing.

[Nethilia]

CalicoDream

Nethilia

I know my risks. If I get pregnant and don't want to be, I will need to abort. That's 500 bucks I could be using towards rent, food, ponies, and Addy's clothes, to name a few things. Mistakes happen. After all, birth control is nowhere near perfect.

That's great. So if YOU got pregnant by accident, you would fall into the "unfairly left with child" category. (As I've now said to not one, but three people. I get the feeling I'm having generic arguments tossed at me... Ah well, not abnormal.)

No, I'd fall into the "Get it out or I'll force it out any way possible" catagory. Don't think to read my mind, little girl. And we keep saying this to you because you seem to think that there are people who abusing abortion. How do you abuse a medical procedure? Are fat people abusing diets? Are people wiht cancer abusing chemotherapy? Are pro football players abusing casts? Seriously.

Quote:

Nethilia

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I know loads of sexually active women. Number with unwanted pregnancies? 0. Reason? They have brains.

The same cannot be said for a very large population of women.

Translation: Any woman who gets pregnant when she doesn't want to be is a moron, across the board.

I find your need to "translate" something in plain english into less accurate and different english strange... Whatever makes you happy, though.

Basically, you're saying that any woman who gets pregnant when she doesn't want to be is stupid, because after all, you know people who have sex and don't get pregnant! Clearly, they must be geniuses!

Quote:

Maybe you should read the things I've posted prior to this biggrin

I've read them. They all hold the tone of "Only stupid women get pregnant and abort friviously. I know women's mindsets about abortion."

As my dear friend Tippy would say, "b***h plz. talk2hand "

[+the_pink_blueberry+]

CalicoDream

DivineFeline

You said that the reason your friends didn't have unwanted pregnancies what because they had brains, which implies that only stupid people have unwanted pregnancies.

When I said that, you accused me of not reading your post. I went back and re-read your post. The detail that you added to the fox in a trap analogy was that the fox was either forced into the trap or was in there because it was being stupid.

There was no third "the fox stumbled into the trap despite showing due care and attention". This gives the impression that you believe that if a woman chooses to have sex, gets pregnant and aborts, she's abusing the right to abort, because no one forced her to have sex.

Actually that wasn't my original post. In my first post I'd explicity written:

CalicoDream

There are some people who very unfairly get left in a position where they are stuck with child.

The Fox-trap analogy that I then extended referred solely to the other group of people specified in my first post, i.e. the "stupid" people.


So, no, I do not exclude cases like condoms breaking, etc. from my argument.

I appreciate your succint (if slightly inaccurate) description of my arguments, though smile

You also said

Quote:

there are other people who know the risks and screw themselves (no pun intended) over, thinking that if things go awry later they can simply "fix" things.

The risks are there every single time you have sex, whether or not you use protection. I know that I am risking getting pregnant even though I use birth control, and yet I still have sex. It seems to me that that post condemns me as someone who "screws themselves over".
Frankly, if that isn't what you mean, I'd edit the post.

[CalicoDream]

SkynX

Out of curiosity, how many people do you think there are that throw themselves into a sexual situation with nary a care for the outcome? (That is, whether or not the person becomes pregnant?)

Scarce few, I'd imagine.

More than one. And such people definitely qualify as stupid.

What demographic do you suppose has the most abortions? The teenaged-25 group. I doubt it's because Trojan made their condoms too thin.

[Fran Salaska]

requietum ac adamo amor

ThePeerOrlando

requietum ac adamo amor

DivineFeline

requietum ac adamo amor

1. Life will go on, regaurdless if people die. Outlawing abortion wont destroy the human race,

So, as long as it doesn't destroy the human race, a few women dying from unsafe abortions doesn't matter, does it?

Quote:

2. The government was made to work on the majority, hence the elections, hence the votes made by the senate to pass certain laws. Yes it was made to give the indavidual a voice, but in the long run money and numbers out do reality and justice.

Here's a question on this point: Do the desires of the majority override the needs of the minority?

Quote:

Seriously though, I never said pro-lifers were the mojority, I was only speaking hypotheticaly.

Lastly, I don't think abortion will be overturned, but if it is get over it; because it wont be the first or last injustice done to humanity.

So, just because there are other injustices happening mean that we deserve to have one more? Where's the logic in that?

1. No it doesn't matter, people die all the time, get over it.

2. Probably, I mean if 90% of males want a porno shop instead of a grocery store which do you think is going to pop up?

3. Its not that we deserve it, but that it happens. Do certain people who die nessearily deserve it? Life isn't fair.

1. So why haven't the Lifers gotten over it, and why aren't you telling them to stfu?

2. A grocery store. Because even if 90% of them WANT something, 100% of them NEED to eat. Your analogy is faulty.

3. So we're supposed to stop fighting if it ever happens? That flies in the face of everything about this country. We don't give up fighting. We're stubborn ******** like that.

1. Do you think pro-choicers would get over it if they lost? Do you think they would shut up? I don't tell pro-lifers to stfu because its like telling a blind man to look at something, it just isn't going to happen. neutral

2. Actualy socioty does go for what it wants more than what it needs, hence large houses, air conditioning, the internet, and more. Women don't need abortion, the want it, but pro-lifers don't want it and don't need it. If pro-lifers were the majority it would be overruled.

3. Yes, because if it was ever made illegal now it would have to have some amazing fact or evidence behind it, making it almost impossible to overturn.

2. Yeah, that's because they can afford it. Some people are happy to survive on what they need - others WILL go for what they want. Plus, AC = less chance of heatstroke, and what's to say that some people don't NEED a large house? Lots of children, you know.

So you think even if a woman gets pregnant with a child and she'll die if she keeps it, she doesn't NEED an abortion? Sweet. "You don't need an abortion, go die!"

3. Fortunately, that's not going to happen. Abortion remains legal while we're a democracy.

[The Incorrigible Muffin]

Can I interject a completely off-topic and probably stupid question?

...

What is with these Tetris pieces? First time I glanced over one, I thought I was hallucinating. confused

[Fran Salaska]

The Incorrigible Muffin

SkynX

Out of curiosity, how many people do you think there are that throw themselves into a sexual situation with nary a care for the outcome? (That is, whether or not the person becomes pregnant?)

Scarce few, I'd imagine.

One would hope so, but there is really no way of knowing.

It probably happens often enough, but not as often as so many people think.

[+the_pink_blueberry+]

CalicoDream

SkynX

Out of curiosity, how many people do you think there are that throw themselves into a sexual situation with nary a care for the outcome? (That is, whether or not the person becomes pregnant?)

Scarce few, I'd imagine.

More than one. And such people definitely qualify as stupid.

What demographic do you suppose has the most abortions? The teenaged-25 group. I doubt it's because Trojan made their condoms too thin.

Yet 60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children. Also:
54% of women having an abortion said they used some form of contraception during the month they became pregnant.
90% of women who are at risk for unplanned pregnancies are using contraception
Only 8% of women having an abortion say they have never used contraception.

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

[Beatrix the catgirl]

CalicoDream

SkynX

Out of curiosity, how many people do you think there are that throw themselves into a sexual situation with nary a care for the outcome? (That is, whether or not the person becomes pregnant?)

Scarce few, I'd imagine.

More than one. And such people definitely qualify as stupid.

What demographic do you suppose has the most abortions? The teenaged-25 group. I doubt it's because Trojan made their condoms too thin.

It would be best if you cited sources instead of making assumptions.

[The Incorrigible Muffin]

Rinaqa

The Incorrigible Muffin

SkynX

Out of curiosity, how many people do you think there are that throw themselves into a sexual situation with nary a care for the outcome? (That is, whether or not the person becomes pregnant?)

Scarce few, I'd imagine.

One would hope so, but there is really no way of knowing.

It probably happens often enough, but not as often as so many people think.

Maybe not, but if it's happening, it's too much. I have to agree with Calico on that one.

[CalicoDream]

Nethilia

No, I'd fall into the "Get it out or I'll force it out any way possible" catagory. Don't think to read my mind, little girl. And we keep saying this to you because you seem to think that there are people who abusing abortion. How do you abuse a medical procedure? Are fat people abusing diets? Are people wiht cancer abusing chemotherapy? Are pfootball players abusing casts? Seriously.

I don't presume to read your mind and have absolutely no desire to do so, either.
Also, I never once said that you personally abuse abortion, so please don't waste time by getting defensive.

Looking back on my posts, the term "abortion abuse" is a little strong. Bear in mind that I doubt there would be so many young, unwanted pregnancies if casual abortion were not an option. Why? People would be scared that they might screw their lives up.

Further, few people know how unpleasant abortion is. Many pro-choicers market it as a nice, easy, carefree way to ensure that your life stays normal!

Nethilia

Basically, you're saying that any woman who gets pregnant when she doesn't want to be is stupid, because after all, you know people who have sex and don't get pregnant! Clearly, they must be geniuses!

If I'd intended to say that, wouldn't it logically follow that I would have written those words?

Logical simplification of a statement is valid. Reading into my statements without justification is not.

Nethilia

I've read them. They all hold the tone os "Only stupid women get pregnant and abort friviously. I know women's mindsets about abortion."

As my dear friend Tippy would say, "b***h plz. talk2hand "

Or so you perceive.
Also, I never once said that my personal experience constituted exhaustive research or even meant anything.

You keep pulling these nonexistent beliefs and statements from my posts and then you proceed to freak out about them. Maybe you should relax and try reading the words I write instead of the subversive anti-abortion propaganda that eats small children which lurks behind my posts.