The Abortion Debate

[ThePeerOrlando]

Funkyblueeyes

Treacherous Desire

And Romania.

It outlawed abortion and protection too.

And do you people know how many romanian orphans die every day of malnutrition, starvation, and diseases which the orphanage can't afford to heal?!?!?

Let me put it into perspective for you!!

One of my best friends was adopted from Romania. He had 4 siblings. 3 boys, one girl, who he left at the age of one to come into a canadian family.

the girl is dead. So are two of the boys. The last one, he doesn't know.

That's... that's kinda her point.

[Funkyblueeyes]

If a woman is forced to go through with having a baby, she could try backstreet abortions, such as being attacked, hurting herself, taking highky addictive drugs, etc..

If she did try a backstreet abortion and it failed, the baby will be born with permanent damage, into a family where it isn't loved. Which means it could be abused in many different ways, abandoned on a bus, doorstep, in a dumpster, etc.

Now let's stop thinking about the child for a moment, and look at the mother. She had her whole life ahead of her to go to college, get a good job, find a husband, make a family, and then have kids. But because of getting knocked up at a young age, she has to drop out of school to take care of her child. She has to find a minimum wage job because she never completed her education. If that doesn't pay the bills, she becomes a prostitute.

So just by saying, we won't remove your fetus madame, we are forcing a handicap child into an unloving home with a prostitute mother and no father.

Have a good life, kiddo!!

[Funkyblueeyes]

ThePeerOrlando

Funkyblueeyes

Treacherous Desire

And Romania.

It outlawed abortion and protection too.

And do you people know how many romanian orphans die every day of malnutrition, starvation, and diseases which the orphanage can't afford to heal?!?!?

Let me put it into perspective for you!!

One of my best friends was adopted from Romania. He had 4 siblings. 3 boys, one girl, who he left at the age of one to come into a canadian family.

the girl is dead. So are two of the boys. The last one, he doesn't know.

That's... that's kinda her point.

I was reinforcing her point, not objecting it.

[ThePeerOrlando]

Funkyblueeyes

ThePeerOrlando

Funkyblueeyes

Treacherous Desire

And Romania.

It outlawed abortion and protection too.

And do you people know how many romanian orphans die every day of malnutrition, starvation, and diseases which the orphanage can't afford to heal?!?!?

Let me put it into perspective for you!!

One of my best friends was adopted from Romania. He had 4 siblings. 3 boys, one girl, who he left at the age of one to come into a canadian family.

the girl is dead. So are two of the boys. The last one, he doesn't know.

That's... that's kinda her point.

I was reinforcing her point, not objecting it.

Okay, I thought you had a misconception about her and... yeah, well it's all cleared up now, so no biggie!

[Oni no Tenshi]

Funkyblueeyes

If a woman is forced to go through with having a baby, she could try backstreet abortions, such as being attacked, hurting herself, taking highky addictive drugs, etc..

If she did try a backstreet abortion and it failed, the baby will be born with permanent damage, into a family where it isn't loved. Which means it could be abused in many different ways, abandoned on a bus, doorstep, in a dumpster, etc.

Now let's stop thinking about the child for a moment, and look at the mother. She had her whole life ahead of her to go to college, get a good job, find a husband, make a family, and then have kids. But because of getting knocked up at a young age, she has to drop out of school to take care of her child. She has to find a minimum wage job because she never completed her education. If that doesn't pay the bills, she becomes a prostitute.

So just by saying, we won't remove your fetus madame, we are forcing a handicap child into an unloving home with a prostitute mother and no father.

Have a good life, kiddo!!

While I *DO* agree with your point, I would also like to state that personally, what MIGHT happen either way is really not the point. Just as the potential baby has the potential to be the next Oliver Twist or dumpster baby or American Idol winner means nothing.

In the end, these decisions should be solely decided by the woman carrying the pregnancy, as she is the one responsible for it, and, if she decides to keep (or abort), she will have to go through the proper channels of action in order to solidify her choice.

She should never be thrown horror stories of what to expect if she keeps or aborts. She should be told valid information, and her options available depending on what she may choose, but certainly no horror stories from either side.

I don't see people up in arms about people who spend so much money through credit that they go into massive debt, rendering themselves (and their families) in utter poverty. I don't see people decrying the "irresponsibility" of these people and an outcry to wrench their responsibility of handling money away from said debt-ridden people so that they stop endangering their families and themselves.

In SO many VITAL areas of life, we say nothing when someone does irresponsible things to themselves or others. And yet, when it comes to a woman's personal decision over how to treat her pregnancy, people act like they just can't wait to wrench a woman's decision away from her, make her feel disgraced, no matter what she decides, and seek to make her regret keeping, aborting, or adopting out after the pregnancy is over.

No matter how much *YOU* may think that she is "ruining her life" (from either side of this arguement), it is her choice and her choice alone that decides what to do.

[evilsweetpea4u]

I read a few of the comments people have made about pro-choice, I do not believe that is it right that a women should have the choice whether she wants to kill the baby, everyone is talking about choice, but about the little baby growing inside of her, doesn't he/she have a choice whether it wants to live or not, I mean give it up for adoption...there are people out there that can not have kids an really want them an adoption is the only way so that they can have kids...I mean the only true really true reason that a can see that a women should be able to pick if they want to have an abortion is if they were raped because then i could understand the emotional and strain that would be on her..but other than that if we all say its the womens choice to have the baby then maybe the women and the guy she sleeps with should also choose to use protection when they have sex!

[evilsweetpea4u]

I read a few of the comments that people have lefted saying it was the womens choice if she wanted to have a baby, but i can't help but think its funny because what about the little thing growing inside of her, doesn't he/she have the choice to be born or not??...I mean there are people out there who wish that they could have kids but can't, so i think the women should give the baby up for adoption, there is only one really true reason a women should be able to choose whether they want to have the baby or not, an its if she was raped then i could understand her reasons for that, others might not be able to because we are not in her shoes, but for those who got pregnant cause they had sex and didn't use protection then they shouldn't have a choice, because they had a choice already an that was whether to have sex with protection or without protection, so its there fault!

[Nethilia]

First of all: What's the damn point of rolling dice? Way to spam.

evilsweetpea4u

I read a few of the comments people have made about pro-choice, I do not believe that is it right that a women should have the choice whether she wants to kill the baby,

'Baby' is a pseudomedical term used to evoke emotional images of full term infants and neonates in the abortion debate. You use it to tug on heartstrings and make people think about rosy born babies, which is never what is aborted.

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everyone is talking about choice, but about the little baby growing inside of her, doesn't he/she have a choice whether it wants to live or not,

It doesn't have the mental capacity to want anything. And even if it did, no creature has the unquestioned right to live using another person's body.

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I mean give it up for adoption...there are people out there that can not have kids an really want them an adoption is the only way so that they can have kids...

Adoption is not an alternative to pregnancy. It is an alternative to parenting.

You're missing a major, major point. The woman still has to be pregnant for nine months. She still gains weight, still has to do prenatal things, still has to experience all of pregnancy, still has to squeeze a baby out between her legs. Adoption just means that after all this is done, she hands the chibiling over to someone else to raise. Saying that a woman who is having an unwanted pregnancy should give the baby up for adoption does not make her instantly not experience the pregnancy. Now, if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant but ends up so, there are only two ways the pregnancy can go. She can terminate the pregnancy by having an abortion of some sort. Or, she can carry the fetus until the pregnancy ends in stillbirth, miscarriage, or a live birth.

Until the day comes where a woman can take the fetus out of her uterus and give it to the people adopting to carry for nine months, don't tell me adoption is an alternative. Because it's not.

As for those people that want kids, there's over 100,000 children avalaible for adoption right now. If these people really want to take in and love a child, they'd want these older children. If the only way they can love a child is to pick it fresh from a woman's unwanted pregnancy, then ******** em.

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I mean the only true really true reason that a can see that a women should be able to pick if they want to have an abortion is if they were raped because then i could understand the emotional and strain that would be on her..but other than that if we all say its the womens choice to have the baby then maybe the women and the guy she sleeps with should also choose to use protection when they have sex!

Not working. Until someone can start pointing me out some biological differences between a fetus concieved via consentual sex and those concieved via non consentual sex, my conclusion is that rape victims are given a "get out of damnation free" card.

And with that one loophole, the entire abortion debate changes from one of being pro-fetus to being anti-sexual activity for women, in that a woman is judged on how she concieved and then denied or approved if she didn't have sex consentually. This brings up the point: Where do you draw the line? Is it consenting if she lies there rather than die because her rapist will kill her, or if she fell asleep on the couch at a friend's and he raped her? What if it was blackmail? What if she started to lead him on, changed her mind, and he pushed forwards anyways? Are we going to bring up what she was wearing, her past sexual history, and her circumstances? Does marriage come into play? (For long ago, the law was that a man could never rape his wife; the marriage contract obligated the woman to give sex to the man, and if he forced himself on her, there was nothing she could do.) Is it rape if the woman is legally too young to consent? How do you prove it was rape, when many victims never step forward and others may make false claims using a bit of rough play with a boyfriend to get false evidence? Allowing the only loophole to be for rape is to open up a whole nother mess which I don't think, frankly, most people have even bothered to think about when they say "I'll allow it for rape victims".

And a woman can have mental trauma from being expected and forced to stay pregnant because some people twitch at the idea of abortion.

Protection can fail.

[Issabee]

Gah, I've had to catch up on about 20 pages since this morning. The internet had to be shut down for the day at work, so I couldn't use it.

I see that someone brought up "The Silent Scream". I've been waiting for a pro-life person to do this.

"The Silent Scream" was made in 1984 by Bernard Nathanson. As techology advanced, it was later believed that the abortion couldn't be real. Specialists and scientists who viewed this video believe that he either used a miscarried fetus, or a model fetus. They estimated if it was a miscarried fetus, it would have been around 18 weeks.

As more evidence was discovered about fetal development, and more accusations were made against Nathanson, he finally came forward and admitted that the video he made wasn't a real abortion. The majority of the claims he made in the video were false.

He claimed that a 12 week fetus experiences pain. But at this stage of the pregnancy, the brain and nervous system are only in the very early stages of development. Most of the brain cells are not developed, and there is no cerebral cortex. Pain impulses cannot be recieved or percieved without one, so it is impossible for the fetus to feel pain.

He claimed that the 12 week fetus can move willingly on it's own. He claimed that in the "abortion" he staged, the fetus is purposely trying to avoid being removed from the uterus. But at this stage of the pregnancy, all fetal movement is reflexive rather than purposeful. To move purposefully, they must have cognition. Since they do not have a cerebral cortex, as well as the covering sheath of the spinal cord and attached nerves, what Nathanson claimed is completely impossible.
The "fetus" in that video looks like its trying to frantically move away from the instruments, but it is simply a reflex response of the fetus resulting from movement of the uterus and its contents induced by the instruments and/or the ultrasound transductor on the abdomen. Amoebas will reflexively move or display a withdrawal reaction when touched.

Experts in ultrasonography and film technology have concluded that the video of the abortion was deliberately slowed down and subsequently speeded up to creat an impression of hyperactivity. Nathanson later admitted to doing this.

Nathanson claims that the ultrasonogram shows the open mouth of the fetus, which he has called "The Silent Scream". The mouth of the fetus cannot be identified in the ultrasound image with certainty. His conclusion is not supportable, it's purely a subjective and misleading interpretation.

He claims that the fetus emits "The Silent Scream". A scream cannot occur without air in the lungs. Screaming or crying cannot even occur in the later stages of gestation. Infants that are born very prematurely can barely even emit weak cries.

He makes the absurd claim that a fetus is indistinguisable from the rest of us. A fetus of 12 weeks cannot in any way be compared to a fully formed functioning person.

He claims that the fetal head at 12 weeks requires the use of crushing instruments for extraction. At 12 weeks gestation and even 1-2 weeks beyond, instrumentation other than a suction cannula is not required when abortion is properly performed. This is why many experts believed that he used an 18 week old miscarried fetus, rather than a 12 week one.

He claims that brain waves have existed for six weeks in the fetus displayed on the screen. Although some electrical impulses have been recorded as early as 10 weeks gestation, these cannot be interpreted as or compared with brain waves. Genuine brain waves DO NOT occur until the third trimester.

He claimed that the fetal heart rate rose from 140 to 200, which is abnormally high and reflective of fetal responce to imminent mortal danger. The heart rate of the fetus portrayed in the film does not change significantly at any time. Nevertheless, a fetal heart rate of 200 is within the normal range. Normal is around 180-200 beats per minute for this stage of pregnancy. It is very unlikely that the fetus had a heart rate of 140 that rose to 200. A rate of 140 is generally noted in the latter half of the pregnancy. If a fetus this young has a heart rate as low as 140, there is something seriously wrong.

He claims that the large, well-developed fetal model intermittently picked up and displayed during the narrative of the abortion procedure is representive of a 12 week fetus. The fetal model displayed during the abortion procedure is much larger than a fetus of 12 weeks gestation. This model is of an 18 week old fetus.

He claims that many women who have an abortion suffer severe and lasting psychological damage. Serious emotional problems following an abortion are very uncommon. Most women report a sence of relief, although some may experience temporary depression. Serious psychological disturbabces after abortion occur far less frequently than after childbirth.

Bernard Nathanson is what we call a zealot. A zealot will stop at nothing in their attempts to win their cause, even if they have to resort to lying and misleading to do this.

Experts believe that the dead fetuses shown in disposal containers on the screen aren't products of abortion. These fetuses are so large and in such a state of deterioration that they are actually stillborns.

Bernard is a known lier. He presents propoganda and claims it as fact. He has admitted that the images were manipulated and the facts cited are untrue. Nothing he can say, or has said, is of any value in the debate over abortion.

[SangekiNoYoru]

abortion is good when woman is pregnant after being ripped or when pregnancy menace to mother`s or child`s life, i think.

[Nethilia]

FeaRan

abortion is good when woman is pregnant after being ripped or when pregnancy menace to mother`s or child`s life, i think.

I assume you mean raped. Rape fetuses are no different from any other fetus. By only allowing it for rape, you're punishing people for having consentual sex.

All pregnancy is a menace to a woman's life. Every time, every pregnancy.

[SangekiNoYoru]

Nethilia

FeaRan

abortion is good when woman is pregnant after being ripped or when pregnancy menace to mother`s or child`s life, i think.

I assume you mean raped. Rape fetuses are no different from any other fetus. By only allowing it for rape, you're punishing people for having consentual sex.

All pregnancy is a menace to a woman's life. Every time, every pregnancy.

yeah, raped, sorry for my English ^^'

well, pregnancy doesn`t menace to woman`s life always, i thought about some critical situations.

i don`t punishing people for having consentual sex, what are you talking about..? ok, just think about you - if you were raped. if you became pregnant, would you like to have this baby? well, wouldn`t.

[Nethilia]

FeaRan

well, pregnancy doesn`t menace to woman`s life always, i thought about some critical situations.

Actualy, yes. every time, it does. There are many conditions that only occur in pregnancy, can come with no warning, and can severely cripple or kill a woman who otherwise is perfectly healthy.

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i don`t punishing people for having consentual sex, what are you talking about..?

Saying that someone who has sex and gets pregnant should stay pregnant--because she consented to sex-is punishing them for having sex. It is making her go through an unwanted pregnancy because she had sex. It would be like making a cancer patient who smoked keep the cancer because they brought it on themselves.

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ok, just think about you - if you were raped. if you became pregnant, would you like to have this baby? well, wouldn`t.

I don't know what I'd do. I've yet to be in that position. However, I have been unwillingly and unwantedly pregnant from consentual sex with my husband, and I went psychotic at the mere thought of remaining that way.

Rape does not automatically mean a woman will want to abort, and consent to sex does not mean that I want to stay pregnant. To assume that rape is the only reason a woman can abort legitimately is to say, "Only if you didn't want the sex that caused the pregnancy can you not continue a pregnancy." Which is judging a woman's sexual activity. There is no biological reason to allow a raped woman to abort and not one who had consentual sex. It is purely judgemental.

[TPauSilver]

FeaRan

ok, just think about you - if you were raped. if you became pregnant, would you like to have this baby? well, wouldn`t.

Ok, just think about it, you're dating this guy, living with him, you're engaged, and you find out he's sleeping with your best friend. You moved half way across the country to be with this guy but you move out and leave his a**. So you've staying with some less-close friends, you didn't do well in high school and can't find a job, your family are half a country away and the two people you are closes too in your life just betrayed you. You then learn you are pregnant. Do you want that baby?

There are lots of situations when a woman doesn't want the baby she's carrying. Making her carry it is punishing her for daring to have consentual sex. All children should be gifts, none should be looked on as punishment.

[ThePeerOrlando]

FeaRan

Nethilia

FeaRan

abortion is good when woman is pregnant after being ripped or when pregnancy menace to mother`s or child`s life, i think.

I assume you mean raped. Rape fetuses are no different from any other fetus. By only allowing it for rape, you're punishing people for having consentual sex.

All pregnancy is a menace to a woman's life. Every time, every pregnancy.

yeah, raped, sorry for my English ^^'

well, pregnancy doesn`t menace to woman`s life always, i thought about some critical situations.

i don`t punishing people for having consentual sex, what are you talking about..? ok, just think about you - if you were raped. if you became pregnant, would you like to have this baby? well, wouldn`t.

And behold, the Lord sayeth to the DarkFire168 "Thou shalt stand against those who would turn thine child into a weapon of pain and harm. Thou shalt not allow those to transgress against the sacred harmony that a child represents. Thou shalt strike down those who would temper a child into a mere device of pain for others. And thou shalt go amongst the huddled, tired masses and take from them their coat hangers. And thou shalt build Free clinics, where the sacred femine would be respected and aided in their trials and tribulations to protect the sacredness of the womb and child. And thou shalt shoot on site those who would defy me, for I am thy Lord, the great Noodleman."

Nokian Revelations 1:6:5