The Abortion Debate

[Beatrix the catgirl]

Cauis_Refanius

Quote:

As for "why," there is no "why." Things just happen. You deal with them. That's life. You might as well ask why nature made it so that so many human pregnancies never come to term. And I'm not talking abortion. I'm talking failure to implant, DNA combinations incompatible with life, and so on.

And with so many of those complications that happen to people that want children how can you tell them "O I'm sorry you can't have children, we almost had one but we decided against it and killed it in the womb..."

Why should I have to incubate a child for a couple when they can go out and adopt from the already many children in the adoption system if they want a child so badly?

[Painted Britain Blue]

Cauis_Refanius

Quote:

As for "why," there is no "why." Things just happen. You deal with them. That's life. You might as well ask why nature made it so that so many human pregnancies never come to term. And I'm not talking abortion. I'm talking failure to implant, DNA combinations incompatible with life, and so on.

And with so many of those complications that happen to people that want children how can you tell them "O I'm sorry you can't have children, we almost had one but we decided against it and killed it in the womb..."

Foetus =/= child

That risk makes abortion an even more difficult choice, but you cannot admire a woman for still going through with it to not bring an unloved life into the world?
(also, I didn't mean to offend eariler, I apologise)

[WatersMoon110]

Cauis_Refanius

Quote:

As for "why," there is no "why." Things just happen. You deal with them. That's life. You might as well ask why nature made it so that so many human pregnancies never come to term. And I'm not talking abortion. I'm talking failure to implant, DNA combinations incompatible with life, and so on.

And with so many of those complications that happen to people that want children how can you tell them "O I'm sorry you can't have children, we almost had one but we decided against it and killed it in the womb..."

There is not a shortage of children out there to adopt, or foster. In fact, there are far more children out there looking for homes than couples looking for children. So I would tell such a couple, "Why don't you foster a child?"

[Mistress DragonFlame]

Cauis_Refanius

Quote:

As for "why," there is no "why." Things just happen. You deal with them. That's life. You might as well ask why nature made it so that so many human pregnancies never come to term. And I'm not talking abortion. I'm talking failure to implant, DNA combinations incompatible with life, and so on.

And with so many of those complications that happen to people that want children how can you tell them "O I'm sorry you can't have children, we almost had one but we decided against it and killed it in the womb..."

So what? I'm required to pop out a perfect white baby because someone else wants a perfect white newborn? Because, dear GOD, get that icky black 2 year old away from me! gonk

[Cauis_Refanius]

ShadowIce

Cauis_Refanius

And with so many of those complications that happen to people that want children how can you tell them "O I'm sorry you can't have children, we almost had one but we decided against it and killed it in the womb..."

1) It is not a child

2) It is not my job to spend my life making babies for people who can't have their own.

3) If you want a kid, there are thousands out there who needs homes. Go get one.

1) How would you like it if you never existed because of an abortion?

2)I didn't say it was but imagine how someone who can't have children would feel if you told them that?

3)Did I say I wanted a child?

[RaveKitten13]

I wouldn't care if I didn't exist because of an abortion. Hell I wouldn't have even known. Why would I care?

Also if they are gonna get in such a titty because I'm getting pregnant and don't want to be while they can't they should get off their asses and adopt a kid. I'm not THEIR baby maker.

[Mistress DragonFlame]

Cauis_Refanius

1) How would you like it if you never existed because of an abortion?

2)I didn't say it was but imagine how someone who can't have children would feel if you told them that?

3)Did I say I wanted a child?

1) I would enjoy it very much. I'd rather have known nothing, to have known suffering, and all people know suffering.

2) I'd laugh at them and tell them to lower their expectations and get a black toddler.

3) Then why are you forcing one on me?

[ShadowIce]

Cauis_Refanius

1) How would you like it if you never existed because of an abortion?

2)I didn't say it was but imagine how someone who can't have children would feel if you told them that?

3)Did I say I wanted a child?

1) Just as much as I'd like it if never existed because of abstinence.

2) Imagine someone who couldn't go to law school would feel if I told them I could have been a lawyer but decided not to. It sucks when you can't get what you want. That doesn't mean I have to do it for you.

3) Ah, but you used "people want kids" as a reason to not have an abortion. I'm saying there are plenty of kids out there.

[CAPTAIN Plixy[Stix]]

1. If I got aborted. Okay. I got aborted. Don't use emotional arguments.

2. I don't really care if someone felt bad if I told them that. They want kids? Then they can adopt one that's already in the adoption center.

3. YOU specifically didn't say. But your example was messed up.

[Beatrix the catgirl]

Vivnox

I wouldn't care if I didn't exist because of an abortion. Hell I wouldn't have even known. Why would I care?

Also if they are gonna get in such a titty because I'm getting pregnant and don't want to be while they can't they should get off their asses and adopt a kid. I'm not THEIR baby maker.

Exactly. And not to mention, the "couple" would not know I was pregnant in the first place.

[Cauis_Refanius]

WatersMoon110

Cauis_Refanius

Quote:

As for "why," there is no "why." Things just happen. You deal with them. That's life. You might as well ask why nature made it so that so many human pregnancies never come to term. And I'm not talking abortion. I'm talking failure to implant, DNA combinations incompatible with life, and so on.

And with so many of those complications that happen to people that want children how can you tell them "O I'm sorry you can't have children, we almost had one but we decided against it and killed it in the womb..."

There is not a shortage of children out there to adopt, or foster. In fact, there are far more children out there looking for homes than couples looking for children. So I would tell such a couple, "Why don't you foster a child?"

It isn't the same as having your own. I wasn't saying you have to have a kid because they want it. I was saying they try for a gift thier entire lifes and when you get a chance to get it you kill it. How do you think that makes them feel?

[CB_Young]

Cauis_Refanius

1) How would you like it if you never existed because of an abortion?

Can't say I would have everr cared, as I would have lacked the sentiance to do so.

Quote:

2)I didn't say it was but imagine how someone who can't have children would feel if you told them that?

I don't care what they feel, I have no respect at all for someone who is searching the world for the perfect, healthy, no special needs, white, baby while ignoring the thousands of others already looking for homes. I would tell these people to get a dog.

Imagine what a child in the adoption system seels like every time they gey told that they are "just not what that family is looking for."
I will tell you from personal experrience that it kinds sucks.

Quote:

3)Did I say I wanted a child?

I have the feeling that her saying 'you' was just a literary device, and she was really refering to the people who cannot have children, and are waiting for that no needs white baby. Obviously soemone wants a child.

[ShadowIce]

Cauis_Refanius

It isn't the same as having your own. I wasn't saying you have to have a kid because they want it. I was saying they try for a gift thier entire lifes and when you get a chance to get it you kill it. How do you think that makes them feel?

Why isn't it the same as having your own? Is having a child not of your genes somehow inferior to having a child of your genes?

And as I said before, just because someone else wants something doesn't mean I have to live it for them. You may really want to go sky diving and be unable to do so because of physical limitations, but that in no way obligates me to go skydiving.

[WatersMoon110]

Cauis_Refanius

[1) How would you like it if you never existed because of an abortion?

Well, I wouldn't feel anything, because I wouldn't exist.
I am actually the only planned child of my siblings.
But over all, at this point in my life, I do wish I had been aborted, since then I wouldn't have had to go through what I did. Including the "homemade" abortion I did have by choice, to get rid of the pregnancy I did not have by choice or could be considered at all at "fault" for.

Cauis_Refanius

2)I didn't say it was but imagine how someone who can't have children would feel if you told them that?

I imagine they would feel about the same as they did before, since it wouldn't affect the fact that they couldn't have children. There are still plenty of children they could adopt or foster out there.

Cauis_Refanius

3)Did I say I wanted a child?

No, but you seem to think that lots of other people should be having children they don't want.

[JANUX 99]

ShadowIce

DiGital Lucifer

Shadow Ice

The purpose of allowing abortion in cases of rape is because of it's extenuating circumstances.
Unlike consent, rape is forced and it's consequences are much more traumatizing. Infact, I'd be less expecting that a woman love her rape-baby than one she conceived with someone she willingly had sex with.
The reason for this is purely because the actions aren't the same; though the can return similar things.. I'd say that most women who are raped are emotionally and/or mentally scared. Having a baby helping it no more.
But see.. That's kinda like the level of allowing an abortion to save a life.
But see, with rape.. It could happen to a thirteen year old.. And I don't know of any feasible way of making a thirteen year old become a parent without having an extremely rough time.
But say this..
With a decreasing age on the time most kids loose their virginity, if you allow abortions to be so freely obtained, how do you expect to teach anyone any sexual responsibility? I see it as counter productive my self; though I don't really see it as something that we need to abolish completely.
But then again, why should we have all these little children getting their freak on when they should be worried about other long-term things..

If you said, "Women can only have abortions if continuing the pregnancy would harm them emotionally," you would be consistent. Are you saying this? Most pro-lifers don't do that. Most pro-lifers don't care what it pregnancy does to women who have consentual sex. So why care what it does to a woman who doesn't have consentual sex? Are womem who have consentual sex less worthy of your consern than all the other women?

Not really. It's inconsistant to all of that except for what constitutes as an extenuating circumstance.
I consider any rape to a minor as one; in addition to a married woman.
These are automatic in my head for very obvious reasons that we as the outsiders shouldn't have to stick our nose into and say what is the moral thing to do when immorality is the entire cause of further trauma.
Emotional stability is a huge factor, but it's not the sole one.

Quote:

Besides, would you let a rape victim kill her newborn? Would you say it was ok for her to dump her just born baby into a dumpster? I hope not. Because if you say it is ok for rape victims to have abortions and that embryos are children, you aren't saying that killing embryos are wrong but you understand if the emotionally disturbed kill their children. You are saying it is ok for the emotionally disturbed to kill their children. With me it's easy. I don't think embryos are children.

I don't agree with partial-birth Abortions in any way shape or form. I most certainly would not advise anyone to do such a thing to a newborn; at least abandon them at a safe-house shelter at a Firehouse or something. That's what they've put those up for. So that mothers who can't seem to do it the governments way can do it their way without killing the child.
But see.. That's different because an embryo wont cry even at it's destruction.. But a newborn will cry simply from seperation anxiety.
So no, I'm not saying I think killing is ever truly ok; extenuating circumstances is a different story though.

Quote:

And if you want to teach sexual responsibility, I expect you to do it some other way that forcing someone into parenthood. People who are not responsible will hardly make good parents, and pregnancy should not be a punishment. Also, the threat of pregnancy doesn't make people be sexually responsible.

Forcing them into parenthood when they are incapable of such seems hardly fitting. I couldn't agree with that more.
However.. I disagree on your conclusion that the thread of pregnancy doesn't help make people more responsible; In my opinion.. It's the threat of having a baby that's more significant than the pregnancy itself. The pregnancy is just the killer shocker that leads to the more stressful times.
Now, I don't advocate that just because a set of parents may be bad, that you resort to abortion. But I don't advocate that there be some mandate that demands anyone to have to go through something that is known that wont succeed for the parents.

Quote:

Besides, I've known for years that if I got pregnant my mother would want me to have an abortion. And yet I'm still a virgin. No one used motherhood as a threat to force me into being sexually responsible and yet I've had less sex that many die hard pro-lifers I know.

Doesn't mean much in light of the fact that abortion is a rather subjective subject. Sometimes it's the influence of others.. sometimes it's the situation at that very moment.. Sometimes it's just personal feelings. Sometimes it's a host of things.
I could say it's a question of your respect of life, but I don't believe that's allways the case. For the most part, I think that's rarely the case.