The Abortion Debate

[rweghrheh]

ShadowIce

sachiko_sohma

Did he said that it should be illegal? If so then he is then if not he's just stating that he disagree with it. Just because he thinks they "deserved it" doesn't mean it's going to try to make it illegal. Most of use know they it won't stop people if they make it illegal and more will die and if they banned it, then what about the people that really need it or they die? Which is some of the reasons not all of them are going to make it illegal.

You are perfectly welcome to read all the posts he has ever made if you so desire. I merely stated that I don't think pregnancy should be used as a punishment. If you disagree, explain why. If you agree, I don't see the problem. Furthermore, I contend that even if you don't want to make it illegal, saying that rape victims who have abortions are fine but people who have consentual sex and then have abortions are evil, you are still using pregnancy as a punishment. You have stopped talking about the "life of the fetus" and started saying that immoral women deserve to be forced into pregnancy. Much the same way as if I said women who had sex outside of marriage should not be treated for STDs because they "deserved it." You aren't talking about the life of the STD, you're talking about giving the immoral person what they "deserve." As in it being a bad thing (you don't force good things on people). Which is sad.

That's why I say I disagree with it unless it's a serious health problem (including mental health) and alot of rape victims are going to have some sort of mental health problems due to trauma, I know this cause i've seen what rape can do to people mentally and i've been molested before and it does affect your health. But never said to banned it altogether ( a few times I was agree and said things but now I know it's better to leave and come back when you calmed down)

[ShadowIce]

sachiko_sohma

That's why I say I disagree with it unless it's a serious health problem (including mental health) and alot of rape victims are going to have some sort of mental health problems due to trauma, I know this cause i've seen what rape can do to people mentally and i've been molested before and it does affect your health. But never said to banned it altogether ( a few things I was agree and said things but now I know it's better to leave and come back when you calmed down)

I didn't say you wanted it to be banned all together. I didn't say anyone wanted to ban it all together (although some people do). I just said I didn't think abortion should be restricted based on the morality of the woman because it is immoral to deny medical care based on immorality, pregnancy should not be used as a punishment for immoral behavior, and early stage fetuses and under are not people.

I guess I don't see the point of saying all this in response to my post.

[Oni no Tenshi]

ShadowIce

You are perfectly welcome to read all the posts he has ever made if you so desire. I merely stated that I don't think pregnancy should be used as a punishment. If you disagree, explain why. If you agree, I don't see the problem. Furthermore, I contend that even if you don't want to make it illegal, saying that rape victims who have abortions are fine but people who have consentual sex and then have abortions are evil, you are still using pregnancy as a punishment. You have stopped talking about the "life of the fetus" and started saying that immoral women deserve to be forced into pregnancy. Much the same way as if I said women who had sex outside of marriage should not go in for treatment of STDs because they "deserved it." You aren't talking about the life of the STD, you're talking about giving the immoral person what they "deserve." As in it being a bad thing (you don't force good things on people). Which is sad.

My question to all those "she deserves it" people out there is this: what makes YOU so goddamn special and deserving to judge over what OTHERS decide?

Why should YOUR wants and needs usurp those of another person who is actually in the position? Have you done research on the topic? Do you know ANYTHING about it past the "abortion is murder" bilge that you spout and re-spout like some kind of mantra?

In the end, how can YOU truly decide what is moral or immoral, and how in the hell can you check the accuracy of the accounts of said women?

All I can say is that if abortion was made illegal except in cases of rape, you'd have women accusing their boyfriends of supposed rape A LOT.

All a girl has to do is get a few black eyes, cry uncontrollably a bit, and eventually they won't be able to do much about "rape" cases, and either give each person the abortion she seeks or tie up the court system (and raise taxes by doing so), with endless cases of "rape" and abortion seeking.

Seriously, most of the opponants of women's choice to have or not have abortions seem to not understand the fact that in the end, it will be a financially, medically, and morally disasterous for the whole system of government and society. For a change, it may be a good idea to look at abortion as a larger social issue, not just an individual, "save the widdle angel baybees" kind of problem. Believe me, in this capitolistic society, where we glean all kinds of benefits from the way things are run, the rich guys in charge see a LOT of benefits of keeping abortion legal, rather than be just narrowminded and supposedly out to "save" babies that have cherub white faces and blue eyes that sparkle.

Believe me, I absolutely look forward to having my own children. They will be wanted and loved to a degree that cannot be expressed with words.

But I will NEVER consent to making pregnancy an obligatory punishment for ANY woman who dares to have sex.

I am all for making unwanted pregnancy rare and next to nonexistant.

I've never heard many pro-life people say anything past "those whores should be punished with a baby" or "it keels the babyess". The very few "pro lifers" who have actually responded to the topic of abortion as a multi-faceted problem that needs to be solved in many areas so that abortion will be rare to unnecessary are those who I can see eye-to-eye with, and while i don't think that making aboriton illegal will solve anything, implementing programs to cut down on ignorance and unwanted pregnancy PREVENTION will be a HUGE step in the right direction.

[Oni no Tenshi]

Reinna Astarel

divineseraph

Reinna Astarel

divineseraph

thank you. that's what i'm saying about pregnancy. YOU wrapped your v****a around his p***s. YOU freaking let him ejaculate in you.

So now the woman has the ability to control the man's p***s to the point where if she doesn't want him to ejaculate inside her, she can stop him? Sex is now the always woman's fault entirely, and not the man's.

*COUGHSexistCOUGH*

yeah, sure. the woman has the ability to close her legs.

And that instantly causes the man's p***s to slide out? Wouldn't rape be so much easier to preven then...

I'd think it'd be hard to close your legs in common sex positions such as the missionary position, y'know, considering the man is lying right between them. rolleyes

In response to the "Women are the cause of pregnancy and are responsible for getting pregnant" rationale, I can only comment with a short comic strip:



BOTH people are responsible for creating a high probability of pregnancy, but NEITHER of them actually causes the pregnancy to HAPPEN on it's own through conscious, direct decision.

Even if she tracks her cycle to the exact second that she ovulates and they inject the man's sperm directly into the cervix, the egg and sperm have to connect on their own, she can't pick up the egg and cram one in.

[Misty_Watersprite]

Crystallyne Vixen

Does anybody else have really horrible feelings towards that seraph thing? Such a horrible person treating women as he does.

He never answered me on the spina bifida/anencephaly thing. Maybe he's one of those who believe that natural defects don't happen.

[ReiDuck]

sachiko_sohma

That's why I say I disagree with it unless it's a serious health problem (including mental health) and alot of rape victims are going to have some sort of mental health problems due to trauma, I know this cause i've seen what rape can do to people mentally and i've been molested before and it does affect your health. But never said to banned it altogether ( a few times I was agree and said things but now I know it's better to leave and come back when you calmed down)

People can have their mental health adversely effectedeven without being raped or molested; one of the things that can cause this is unwanted pregnancy, no matter what their circumstances.

[Cauis_Refanius]

Oni-Angel

ShadowIce

You are perfectly welcome to read all the posts he has ever made if you so desire. I merely stated that I don't think pregnancy should be used as a punishment. If you disagree, explain why. If you agree, I don't see the problem. Furthermore, I contend that even if you don't want to make it illegal, saying that rape victims who have abortions are fine but people who have consentual sex and then have abortions are evil, you are still using pregnancy as a punishment. You have stopped talking about the "life of the fetus" and started saying that immoral women deserve to be forced into pregnancy. Much the same way as if I said women who had sex outside of marriage should not go in for treatment of STDs because they "deserved it." You aren't talking about the life of the STD, you're talking about giving the immoral person what they "deserve." As in it being a bad thing (you don't force good things on people). Which is sad.

My question to all those "she deserves it" people out there is this: what makes YOU so goddamn special and deserving to judge over what OTHERS decide?

Why should YOUR wants and needs usurp those of another person who is actually in the position? Have you done research on the topic? Do you know ANYTHING about it past the "abortion is murder" bilge that you spout and re-spout like some kind of mantra?

In the end, how can YOU truly decide what is moral or immoral, and how in the hell can you check the accuracy of the accounts of said women?

All I can say is that if abortion was made illegal except in cases of rape, you'd have women accusing their boyfriends of supposed rape A LOT.

All a girl has to do is get a few black eyes, cry uncontrollably a bit, and eventually they won't be able to do much about "rape" cases, and either give each person the abortion she seeks or tie up the court system (and raise taxes by doing so), with endless cases of "rape" and abortion seeking.

Seriously, most of the opponants of women's choice to have or not have abortions seem to not understand the fact that in the end, it will be a financially, medically, and morally disasterous for the whole system of government and society. For a change, it may be a good idea to look at abortion as a larger social issue, not just an individual, "save the widdle angel baybees" kind of problem. Believe me, in this capitolistic society, where we glean all kinds of benefits from the way things are run, the rich guys in charge see a LOT of benefits of keeping abortion legal, rather than be just narrowminded and supposedly out to "save" babies that have cherub white faces and blue eyes that sparkle.

Believe me, I absolutely look forward to having my own children. They will be wanted and loved to a degree that cannot be expressed with words.

But I will NEVER consent to making pregnancy an obligatory punishment for ANY woman who dares to have sex.

I am all for making unwanted pregnancy rare and next to nonexistant.

I've never heard many pro-life people say anything past "those whores should be punished with a baby" or "it keels the babyess". The very few "pro lifers" who have actually responded to the topic of abortion as a multi-faceted problem that needs to be solved in many areas so that abortion will be rare to unnecessary are those who I can see eye-to-eye with, and while i don't think that making aboriton illegal will solve anything, implementing programs to cut down on ignorance and unwanted pregnancy PREVENTION will be a HUGE step in the right direction.

Woah now, easy with the stereotype throwing. I'm pro life and I don't think that pregnancy should be a punishment for anything. That's twisting the meaning of a phrase. I've heard sex compaired to drugs all the time so here's my argument.
The purpose of sex is to reproduce, the side effect is the good feeling. If you had sex without a condem you should ave expected a child. If it was accidental then for God's sake put the child up for adoption.
Otherwise how do you tell the thousands of people who can't have children despite the thousands of dollars on artificial insimination and invitro fertilization that your going to throw away the gift they have yearned so eagerly for only to fail to produce.
I can't justify that.

[Kata Samoes]

sachiko_sohma

Yah because all pro-lifers must be Christians rolleyes

Most tend to be, we've noticed.

[Cauis_Refanius]

O and I didn't quite cover the rape thing. I can't say that I honestly know how one feels with a child in them from some man they never wanted to have sex with. But it's the victim's child too. The child can't help it's father, why should it be annihilated?

[Kata Samoes]

Cauis_Refanius

Woah now, easy with the stereotype throwing. I'm pro life and I don't think that pregnancy should be a punishment for anything. That's twisting the meaning of a phrase. I've heard sex compaired to drugs all the time so here's my argument.
The purpose of sex is to reproduce, the side effect is the good feeling. If you had sex without a condem you should ave expected a child. If it was accidental then for God's sake put the child up for adoption.
Otherwise how do you tell the thousands of people who can't have children despite the thousands of dollars on artificial insimination and invitro fertilization that your going to throw away the gift they have yearned so eagerly for only to fail to produce.
I can't justify that.

I can. There are millions, in the US alone, who do not get adopted already. They can have at them, and if they choose to be extremely picky then it's not the fault of women who aborted.

Also, abortion is an alternative to staying pregnant. If the woman did not want to get an abortion, then decides to put it up for adoption (as hard as it may be) that's their choice. Let the woman have that choice, regardless of your opinion of it.

[Kata Samoes]

Cauis_Refanius

O and I didn't quite cover the rape thing. I can't say that I honestly know how one feels with a child in them from some man they never wanted to have sex with. But it's the victim's child too. The child can't help it's father, why should it be annihilated?

Why should a woman be further tortured mentally, and at points physically, just because she got pregnant? Regardless of the situation?

No children are involved in abortions. An extremely underdeveloped fetus in the first trimester, though, is.

[Cauis_Refanius]

Sorcerer Kata Samoes

Cauis_Refanius

Woah now, easy with the stereotype throwing. I'm pro life and I don't think that pregnancy should be a punishment for anything. That's twisting the meaning of a phrase. I've heard sex compaired to drugs all the time so here's my argument.
The purpose of sex is to reproduce, the side effect is the good feeling. If you had sex without a condem you should ave expected a child. If it was accidental then for God's sake put the child up for adoption.
Otherwise how do you tell the thousands of people who can't have children despite the thousands of dollars on artificial insimination and invitro fertilization that your going to throw away the gift they have yearned so eagerly for only to fail to produce.
I can't justify that.

I can. There are millions, in the US alone, who do not get adopted already. They can have at them, and if they choose to be extremely picky then it's not the fault of women who aborted.

Also, abortion is an alternative to staying pregnant. If the woman did not want to get an abortion, then decides to put it up for adoption (as hard as it may be) that's their choice. Let the woman have that choice, regardless of your opinion of it.

I can respect that answer. Not like I can change it anyway. Good to see thining people like you.

[Faeries527]

I believe you shouldnt have an abortion its wrong for one thing and plus even if you get pregnant its your fault you were irresponsible not the life living in you if you kill the baby its like punishing him/her for no reason and that is so wrong at least have him/her and if then you still cant take care of the baby give him/her up for adoption if you do that the baby will have a full life to live and grow up and not be terminated for no good reason just because you were irrisponsible.

[Talon-chan]

Sorcerer Kata Samoes

Cauis_Refanius

O and I didn't quite cover the rape thing. I can't say that I honestly know how one feels with a child in them from some man they never wanted to have sex with. But it's the victim's child too. The child can't help it's father, why should it be annihilated?

Why should a woman be further tortured mentally, and at points physically, just because she got pregnant? Regardless of the situation?

Because if a fetus is a person, emotional trauma does not justify murder.

If the woman gave birth to the child...and 6 years later became manic depressive (ie bipolar) because of the rape trauma... is her emotional state justification for killing the born child?

If you're pro life because you think a fetus is the equivalent of a born child... a woman aborting due to the trauma of rape is no different than a mother killing a five year old because of a flashback/bipolar-episode from being raped.

One can't logically believe that rape victims can abort because of the trauma and at the same time assert a fetus has a right to life. It's a harsh, sadistic, heinous, and torturous thing to do to force a woman to remain pregnant against her will when she was raped, then again I believe it is all of those things even when she isn't raped, but trauma does not justify what one effectively believes is murder (legal definition be damned they still believe it's the equivalent of murder).

Quote:

No children are involved in abortions. An extremely underdeveloped fetus in the first trimester, though, is.

I agree completely. I don't believe a fetus is the equivalent of a born child, nor that it is qualified to be classified as a person and granted rights.

Faeries...I'd suggest you read the bit about "McFall V. Shimp" in the first posts. After that read the post about "humanity" and consider whether or not a fetus even deserves the same rights as a born person, and understand that if it did... that McFall V Shimp still states bodily integrity trumps another person's right to life.

Those first posts are there and as detailed as they are for a reason... take advantage of the knowledge from both sides of this debate that are held therein.