The Abortion Debate

[ObsidianxAlice]

I am pro-choice.

It is someones personal choice whether or not they have a child. If they don't even want it, why the hell do you think they'll take good care of it at all? And adoption? More often than not an adoption agency or child services will give the child away to whoever will have it, and that may or may not be good person.

And, who the ******** right is it to say what a person can and cannot do. The fetus feels nothing, knows nothing, is just the same as a cancerous cell, but is much less dangerous to a body.

I've had an abortion. It wasn't fun, and its got some serious mental reprecussions. True, some whores and prostitutes use abortion, but consider also that some people just have unplanned pregnancies they are not ready for.

If your God really disagreed, he wouldn't have made it possible, so ******** off, and leave an individual's choice to the individual.


-Don't b***h at me, i'm posting this and leaving-

[JANUX 99]

Moniquill

DiGital Lucifer

That people are allowed to be extremely irresponsible

According to your definition of responsibility

DiGital Lucifer

then resort to one of the worse alternatives

In your opinion

DiGital Lucifer

when the situation isn't appropriate.

According to what you deem appropriate.


This sounds to me like an issue of personal ethics, really. Why should your definitions apply to me? Can your prove that they are superior to mine?

Typical. According to responsibility, you should be acountable to someone for your actions. You should also be trusted and reliable. You should be able to fulfill an obligation.

Well.. According to 'my' definition, abortion is irresponsible if it's not done for a rational and justifiable cause. I think the word.. Extenuating comes to mind when I think about when an Abortion is morally, ethically and justifiably responsible.
Otherwise.. It's a question of selfishness. Like most things are.

Now instead of just telling me the obvious, why don't you tell me a bit about why those things are only 'my opinion' and not simple theories of what can constitute as responsible [in my opinion, responsibility doesn't include death. In my opinion, responsibility doesn't include an immature outlook on life. In my opinion, to be responsible, you have to do what you don't want to do usually. Or in short.. Responsibility means living up to a duty; abortion negates the duties of a parent. And sorry, but you become a parent when you conceive. Unless you want to argue how people who are pregnant are 'normal'].

[foxpaws]

Beatrix the catgirl

mommogirl

foxpaws

I'm kinda for men's rights as in they should not even be asked to have to pay child support or anything.

Just wondering why?

T.i.a.

Because why should he have to if he doesn't want any part in the child's life just because the woman does?

Exactly. Thank you beatrix, and I wanted to say I'm sorry what happened to the last pro-choice and pro-life thread.

[DarkFire168]

DiGital Lucifer

Moniquill

DiGital Lucifer

That people are allowed to be extremely irresponsible

According to your definition of responsibility

DiGital Lucifer

then resort to one of the worse alternatives

In your opinion

DiGital Lucifer

when the situation isn't appropriate.

According to what you deem appropriate.


This sounds to me like an issue of personal ethics, really. Why should your definitions apply to me? Can your prove that they are superior to mine?

Typical. According to responsibility, you should be acountable to someone for your actions. You should also be trusted and reliable. You should be able to fulfill an obligation.

Well.. According to 'my' definition, abortion is irresponsible if it's not done for a rational and justifiable cause. I think the word.. Extenuating comes to mind when I think about when an Abortion is morally, ethically and justifiably responsible.
Otherwise.. It's a question of selfishness. Like most things are.

Now instead of just telling me the obvious, why don't you tell me a bit about why those things are only 'my opinion' and not simple theories of what can constitute as responsible [in my opinion, responsibility doesn't include death. In my opinion, responsibility doesn't include an immature outlook on life. In my opinion, to be responsible, you have to do what you don't want to do usually. Or in short.. Responsibility means living up to a duty; abortion negates the duties of a parent. And sorry, but you become a parent when you conceive. Unless you want to argue how people who are pregnant are 'normal'].

Please explain why being selfish is such a bad or immoral thing. You're selfish everyday. So am I. So is every person on this planet that has ever attempted to survive. At our most basic needs we are selfish and it's a good thing. Continous mandatory self-sacrifice is worse in my eyes than selfishness.

EDIT: Also, according to your definition of responsibility adoption is irresponsible because it negates the duty of parenthood? Notice the paradox?

[Plata Plomo y Sangre]

Quote:

EDIT: Also, according to your definition of responsibility adoption is irresponsible because it negates the duty of parenthood? Notice the paradox?

Not really, seeing as you aren't killing the child when you give it up for adoption. Giving a child up for adoption would be a viable and smart, AND RESPONSIBLE parental choice, in my opinion. They are giving up the child to someone else who can take care of the child better. Now, giving it up simply because you didn't want it is just as irresponsible, in my opinion, as aborting it. But again, why are people arguing PERSONAL opinions?

[Beatrix the catgirl]

A Prince of Cats

Quote:

What other purpose could abortion have than controlling birth? Condoms and the like merely protect against pregnancy, they do nothing against prengancy.

Birth control, meaning using it as a way to prevent against pregnancy. That's the way people who aren't ready for sex use it as.

Abortion IS birth contril, as it CONTROLS BIRTH.

You're mixing up contraceptions and birth control.

Contraception=/= birth control.

[Natas Ferret]

A Prince of Cats

Prove to me that there are OTHER BIOLOGICAL nessecities besides offspring that come about of having sex.

So the effects on the cardiovascular and respitory systems are not biological?
The flushing of sexual fluids, to reduce chances of infection and some forms of cancer, is somehow not biological?

Please provide evidence that the libido is strictly for passing DNA, and is not related to any of the mental attributes of sexual intercourse.

No, really, there are more things to sex than just children.
Your insistence, on such, is laughable at best.

A Prince of Cats

Very few animals garner "stimulation" from sex.

Proof?

A Prince of Cats

Not considering it, or not caring, having sex, then aborting the child because you didn't take the nessecary measures, or because you simply didn't weigh the consequences is immature.

So you'd rather have "irresponsible" people raising children? ******** brilliant.
Because, "shockingly": not everyone will give up a child for adoption.

A Prince of Cats

That said, I was pretty much ignoring you for the same reasons you were apparently ignoring me.

Too bad I haven't been posting in this thread, much at all, for that to even apply. Haha.

A Prince of Cats

I'll expect you to try and debate me on the sex=kids issue.

Which has already been demonstrated, by many others, that sex does not always result in children. It can, but that does not meant it is the only function.

[Moniquill]

[Talon-chan]

DiGital Lucifer

Moniquill

DiGital Lucifer

That people are allowed to be extremely irresponsible

According to your definition of responsibility

DiGital Lucifer

then resort to one of the worse alternatives

In your opinion

DiGital Lucifer

when the situation isn't appropriate.

According to what you deem appropriate.


This sounds to me like an issue of personal ethics, really. Why should your definitions apply to me? Can your prove that they are superior to mine?

Typical. According to responsibility, you should be acountable to someone for your actions. You should also be trusted and reliable. You should be able to fulfill an obligation.

In abortion who are you to be held accountable to? The only cognative beings involved in abortion are the woman, possibly the man involved, and the doctor.

What obligations is involved in pregnancy? An obligation to whom? I would imagine you'd say women are obligated to the fetus, but how did that obligation come to be formed? By having sex? I think enough people have shown already that sex does not mean one is obligated to remain pregnant.

Quote:

Well.. According to 'my' definition, abortion is irresponsible if it's not done for a rational and justifiable cause. I think the word.. Extenuating comes to mind when I think about when an Abortion is morally, ethically and justifiably responsible.

What is a justifiable or rational cause?

I personally think that any reason can be justifiable or rational, including "I just don't want to be pregnant."

How do you come up with a basis for what is justifiable or rational? Wouldn't it just be something based on your own personal morals?

Quote:

Now instead of just telling me the obvious, why don't you tell me a bit about why those things are only 'my opinion' and not simple theories of what can constitute as responsible [in my opinion, responsibility doesn't include death. In my opinion, responsibility doesn't include an immature outlook on life. In my opinion, to be responsible, you have to do what you don't want to do usually. Or in short.. Responsibility means living up to a duty; abortion negates the duties of a parent. And sorry, but you become a parent when you conceive. Unless you want to argue how people who are pregnant are 'normal'].

Responsibility means living up to a duty, and abortion negates the duties of a parent. Ok, but who says such a thing as "duties of a parent" exist, and if they do, why must they be applied during pregnancy? Why not at birth? Further, doesn't adoption negate the duties of a parent? Are you so feverently opposed to the adoption system?

[The Great Lina Inverse]

A Prince of Cats

Quote:

EDIT: Also, according to your definition of responsibility adoption is irresponsible because it negates the duty of parenthood? Notice the paradox?

Not really, seeing as you aren't killing the child when you give it up for adoption. Giving a child up for adoption would be a viable and smart, AND RESPONSIBLE parental choice, in my opinion. They are giving up the child to someone else who can take care of the child better. Now, giving it up simply because you didn't want it is just as irresponsible, in my opinion, as aborting it. But again, why are people arguing PERSONAL opinions?

Because of the illogical commentary being displayed. Adoption is a BAD parental choice, if parental at all. Why should I risk death and infertility to not raise my offspring? I would rather abort my unwanted pregnancy than have a sprog with my genetic material running around. I would not want the day where a get a knock on the door and when I open it I find myself looking at myself when I was younger and have the thing say, "I did some research and I think you're my real mommy."

Besides, it is not my job/duty/obligation/desire to give my white infant to a family that wants/needs a child. They can take one from the 500,000 waiting to be adopted.

[Aumira_Wallace]

A Prince of Cats

But again, why are people arguing PERSONAL opinions?

You know that's a funny question, but I have a funny answer:

Religion, morality, responsibility, personal POV and all that other stuff is subjective. 3nodding

In my mind, getting rid of a fetus before it's born and becomes a sentient being with feelings that can be hurt is responsible and moral. I know that birth control is anything that controls birth and that adoption solves unwanted parenting.

smile

[Nonesuch Solo]

[I am teh Haruka]

I never got a response to this post, so I'll post it again.

Which do people care about more?

A fetus that got aborted?
Or a 2 year old that died?

I care more about the 2 year old rather than a fetus that can't feel pain or any emotions.

Which would you care more about, a five year old who has so much potential, a twenty-five year old who is contributing to society, or an eighty-five year old who has contributed much? (If there were a fire and you could only save one, who would you save?)

For many pro-lifers, a fetus is just as much a person as a two-year-old. No, it does not have a face, nor can it live on its own, but if allowed to develop to term and be born and raised, it would have potential. A two-year-old (who died from neglect) probably has a much more tragic story, what with the knowledge that she can suffer and knowing about all the relationships she was part of, all the people who knew her and cared for her, but is her story more tragic than a six year old? a twenty year old? a fifty year old?

So many humans are so saddened when they hear that a child has died in some terrible accident. But if it's an adult, they don't show the same compassion.

I've asked people about this on occasion, why they think it's "so horrible" simply because the victim was only six. "He's never going to grow up, he'll never have a first date, never go to college or get married or have kids of his own..."

Does a life lose value as it goes through all these important experiences?

Or does it gain value because it can contribute more to society?

If arguments from potential are not allowed, then many of us will have to rethink the way we are emotionally affected by news stories about small children suffering.

[I am teh Haruka]

sachiko_sohma

[I am teh Haruka]

I never got a response to this post, so I'll post it again.

Which do people care about more?

A fetus that got aborted?
Or a 2 year old that died?

I care more about the 2 year old rather than a fetus that can't feel pain or any emotions.

Why can't people care about both? I care about both, maybe abit more for the two year old but still.

Because I'm still seeing pro-lifers pissing and moaning about APP's aborted fetus. (Yes, I keep bringing this up. But seriously, you all know it's true)

No one has congratulated Beatrix for choosing to have a baby. At least, none of the pro-lifers.

And no one has said anything about Nethilia's signature about Brenda.

The last time I talked to a pro-choice person about what her signature meant, she responded in a rather hostile manner and insulted me.

Makes me a bit hesitant to do so again.

Reinna Astarel

Like why we value dogs over worms. Or how you might value the life of a close family member over the life of a man in Tibet. Dogs are smarter. We care about the dogs because we know them; they might be your pet, your companion. You can't communicate with a worm (well, at least), and you don't know the fetus. You might have an idea, oh, it's a girl, she'll love me, etc.etc. but since you can hardly talk to it or see it, you don't really know it.

I'm one of those strange people who tries to save dehydrated worms off the sidewalks after a rain.

And who cries when she accidentally squishes a tiny insect because it tickled her and she scratched it.

Or when she steps on a catterpillar.

/offtopic

[JANUX 99]

Altar_of_Wishes

DiGital Lucifer

Altar_of_Wishes

A Prince of Cats

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to see it as okay to use abortion as a form of birth control.

What other purpose could abortion have than controlling birth? Condoms and the like merely protect against pregnancy, they do nothing against prengancy.

I think the point is more on the lines of the morning-after pill.
That people are allowed to be extremely irresponsible then resort to one of the worse alternatives when the situation isn't appropriate.
I could say the same thing, only with the explanation that covering up irresponsibility doesn't end it. And if being careless is the problem, abortion certainly is a ghastly solution.

The worst alternative to you is one you shouldn't choose, but it can be my best alternative or anyone else's. No one is covering up responsibility because we all have our own ways of dealing with problems.

Carelessness, ignorance of reproduction, honest mistake, faulty protect... it doesn't matter. If a woman chooses abortion, adoption, or an extra mouth to feed, that is her decision and not yours or mine.

Sometimes I can agree with that first statement, but alot of the time you can put two people in the same situation with the same consequences and same possibilities and truly question what decision is responsible and what isn't. And you most certainly can compare.
What about human rights? Isn't that universal? Isn't that thus something you can point out is being treated irresponsibly? Is it not true that descriminating against someone in the work place because they have black hair, even though they are the best you got.. Irresponsible?
What about something we can relate to; Not treating your body as it desires to be [good nutrition, exercise and the rejection of foreign substances like smoke and poison] responsible behavior towards your body?

As for your second statement.. You're right. The right isn't given by the government though; it was given to whatever source you want to say humans came from. Which is the most obvious trait about us mentally. Though it's a good point when concidering the fact that illegal or not, abortions take place.

[Moniquill]

DiGital Lucifer

Typical. According to responsibility, you should be acountable to someone for your actions. You should also be trusted and reliable. You should be able to fulfill an obligation.

And if the someone you are accountable to in yourself?
How do you determine what obligations any person is expected to fulfill? Why are you the one who determines that?

DiGital Lucifer

Well.. According to 'my' definition, abortion is irresponsible if it's not done for a rational and justifiable cause. I think the word.. Extenuating comes to mind when I think about when an Abortion is morally, ethically and justifiably responsible.
Otherwise.. It's a question of selfishness. Like most things are.

When did selfishness become wrong?
Why are you the one who gets to determine when an action is rational or justifiable?

DiGital Lucifer

Now instead of just telling me the obvious, why don't you tell me a bit about why those things are only 'my opinion' and not simple theories of what can constitute as responsible [in my opinion, responsibility doesn't include death. In my opinion, responsibility doesn't include an immature outlook on life. In my opinion, to be responsible, you have to do what you don't want to do usually. Or in short.. Responsibility means living up to a duty; abortion negates the duties of a parent. And sorry, but you become a parent when you conceive. Unless you want to argue how people who are pregnant are 'normal'].

Because the nurder of proof lies upon you for making the statment. I'm telling you that I believe all of these things to be NO MORE than your opinion. If you think that they are more, it lies on you to prove it.

I do not believe that one becomes a parent upon conception. I don't even believe that one becomes a parent upon the onset of pregnancy (they are seperate biological processes, 1/3 of all ocnceptions never result in a pregnancy and 1/2 of all conceptions never result in a viable infant)

Women who are pregnant are just that - pregnant. They are not parents unless they've previously had children.

[JANUX 99]

DarkFire168

DiGital Lucifer

Moniquill

DiGital Lucifer

That people are allowed to be extremely irresponsible

According to your definition of responsibility

DiGital Lucifer

then resort to one of the worse alternatives

In your opinion

DiGital Lucifer

when the situation isn't appropriate.

According to what you deem appropriate.


This sounds to me like an issue of personal ethics, really. Why should your definitions apply to me? Can your prove that they are superior to mine?

Typical. According to responsibility, you should be acountable to someone for your actions. You should also be trusted and reliable. You should be able to fulfill an obligation.

Well.. According to 'my' definition, abortion is irresponsible if it's not done for a rational and justifiable cause. I think the word.. Extenuating comes to mind when I think about when an Abortion is morally, ethically and justifiably responsible.
Otherwise.. It's a question of selfishness. Like most things are.

Now instead of just telling me the obvious, why don't you tell me a bit about why those things are only 'my opinion' and not simple theories of what can constitute as responsible [in my opinion, responsibility doesn't include death. In my opinion, responsibility doesn't include an immature outlook on life. In my opinion, to be responsible, you have to do what you don't want to do usually. Or in short.. Responsibility means living up to a duty; abortion negates the duties of a parent. And sorry, but you become a parent when you conceive. Unless you want to argue how people who are pregnant are 'normal'].

Please explain why being selfish is such a bad or immoral thing. You're selfish everyday. So am I. So is every person on this planet that has ever attempted to survive. At our most basic needs we are selfish and it's a good thing. Continous mandatory self-sacrifice is worse in my eyes than selfishness.

EDIT: Also, according to your definition of responsibility adoption is irresponsible because it negates the duty of parenthood? Notice the paradox?

Well, since selfishness means being concerned for the number one person in your life, yourself, I question how it's not obvious that selfishness is the number one cause of negativity.
Conflict; theft; assault; Murder; hatred; Descrimination and whatever. I can keep going on and on with a list of bad things associated with selfishness. But my explanation stems from the problem of selfishness.. As humans, if we think of only ourselves, we forget about any negative impact those choices we make in a selfish manner can have [I say can, because it's not a gurantee]. Where-as you're more likely to be assisted by those you sacrificed for [also not a gurantee.. But it's funny how selfless acts are commended usually].
I ask.. How is it that being selfish is any good? And to clarify.. Basic instincts like eating, I don't see as selfish. Not unless you are being stingy and don't share; which is a selfless act sometimes if not done out of nessessity [like.. risking your life over food].

Now according to THE Definition of Responsibility, Adoption is irresponsible, but more responsible than what it's given credit for.
For those who are unfortunate enough to unwillingly give up their children so they can lead better lives.. That's not quite irresponsible to parenting.