Don't your users matter? Dev replies; More replies please!

[terradi]

Vampire Lemons

The only thing I like about deadlines is the wooshing noise as it flies by. -shotforreferences-

But yeah. A few of us here in this thread are working on a solution to the communication between users and the team. We're waiting on replies from certain devs and admins and one artist, and hoping to get it stickied once it's done, but we don't know.

*misses the reference entirely* Deadlines stink ...

Oh. That is interesting. If I may ask, what is the plan?

[Vampire Lemons]

terradi

Vampire Lemons

The only thing I like about deadlines is the wooshing noise as it flies by. -shotforreferences-

But yeah. A few of us here in this thread are working on a solution to the communication between users and the team. We're waiting on replies from certain devs and admins and one artist, and hoping to get it stickied once it's done, but we don't know.

*misses the reference entirely* Deadlines stink ...

Oh. That is interesting. If I may ask, what is the plan?

Hitchhiker's guide. XD; -geek'd-

We're discussing writing a user-run newsletter to keep the community updated with information from the GT without them having to do the work. We'd basically send them a quick PM with user questions, as well as pretty much "what do we tell the public today?" kind of thing each month. We also plan to go through dev journals and such, and get as much information as we can. We'll post it up through a mule as a newsletter. We're thinking the GCD, but it's not confirmed yet, since we want to find out who is willing to help us and who isn't and get everything organized so that it's not chaos before we ask about posting/stickying.

[terradi]

Vampire Lemons

terradi

Vampire Lemons

The only thing I like about deadlines is the wooshing noise as it flies by. -shotforreferences-

But yeah. A few of us here in this thread are working on a solution to the communication between users and the team. We're waiting on replies from certain devs and admins and one artist, and hoping to get it stickied once it's done, but we don't know.

*misses the reference entirely* Deadlines stink ...

Oh. That is interesting. If I may ask, what is the plan?

Hitchhiker's guide. XD; -geek'd-

We're discussing writing a user-run newsletter to keep the community updated with information from the GT without them having to do the work. We'd basically send them a quick PM with user questions, as well as pretty much "what do we tell the public today?" kind of thing each month. We also plan to go through dev journals and such, and get as much information as we can. We'll post it up through a mule as a newsletter. We're thinking the GCD, but it's not confirmed yet, since we want to find out who is willing to help us and who isn't and get everything organized so that it's not chaos before we ask about posting/stickying.

So ... something like the thread in Questions and Assistance where the mod team is keeping track of issues, except headed and run by the userbase?

Figuring out how to continually update that first page would be the hardest part, far as I can figure.

[Vampire Lemons]

terradi

Vampire Lemons

terradi

Vampire Lemons

The only thing I like about deadlines is the wooshing noise as it flies by. -shotforreferences-

But yeah. A few of us here in this thread are working on a solution to the communication between users and the team. We're waiting on replies from certain devs and admins and one artist, and hoping to get it stickied once it's done, but we don't know.

*misses the reference entirely* Deadlines stink ...

Oh. That is interesting. If I may ask, what is the plan?

Hitchhiker's guide. XD; -geek'd-

We're discussing writing a user-run newsletter to keep the community updated with information from the GT without them having to do the work. We'd basically send them a quick PM with user questions, as well as pretty much "what do we tell the public today?" kind of thing each month. We also plan to go through dev journals and such, and get as much information as we can. We'll post it up through a mule as a newsletter. We're thinking the GCD, but it's not confirmed yet, since we want to find out who is willing to help us and who isn't and get everything organized so that it's not chaos before we ask about posting/stickying.

So ... something like the thread in Questions and Assistance where the mod team is keeping track of issues, except headed and run by the userbase?

Figuring out how to continually update that first page would be the hardest part, far as I can figure.

Pretty much, yeah.

We've decided that it'd most likely be a once a month update, but it might be once a week or biweekly as well. It's still in discussion at the moment, so nothing is set in stone just yet, but yes. That probably will be.

[terradi]

Vampire Lemons

So ... something like the thread in Questions and Assistance where the mod team is keeping track of issues, except headed and run by the userbase?


Figuring out how to continually update that first page would be the hardest part, far as I can figure.

Pretty much, yeah.

We've decided that it'd most likely be a once a month update, but it might be once a week or biweekly as well. It's still in discussion at the moment, so nothing is set in stone just yet, but yes. That probably will be.


Hmmmm .... it'll be interesting to see what comes of that.

>.> It really makes me question whether the title of the thread is really fitting to what you're all trying to do here though. This sounds more like a group of users trying to jump-start communication than complain. XD

[Vampire Lemons]

terradi

Vampire Lemons

So ... something like the thread in Questions and Assistance where the mod team is keeping track of issues, except headed and run by the userbase?


Figuring out how to continually update that first page would be the hardest part, far as I can figure.

Pretty much, yeah.

We've decided that it'd most likely be a once a month update, but it might be once a week or biweekly as well. It's still in discussion at the moment, so nothing is set in stone just yet, but yes. That probably will be.

Quote:

Hmmmm .... it'll be interesting to see what comes of that.

>.> It really makes me question whether the title of the thread is really fitting to what you're all trying to do here though. This sounds more like a group of users trying to jump-start communication than complain. XD

It probably could use an edit since it's not quite applicable as much as it was before. We've mostly moved past "We hate this Gaia, why don't you listen" to "Gaia, we think these things here would help you become even better, and we're willing to help out too if you want us to" at this point. I'm hoping this does pan out well though, I'd really like to reopen the communication channels between users and the team. It would be a great help ins temming problems if there's more communication and less confusion.

[Taladrea]

Another idea I am pondering on for open communications (with Gaia) after reading an article in PC Gamer (Dec. 2008 Issue) is modifying an idea that EVE Online uses currently for the communication between the business end and the user base of the MMO. It could work here...if they approve it. Unfortunately, PC Gamer does not have an electronic version of the article up yet as far as I can tell. Thus the lack of a link to said source. Sorry.

Basically, they elected nine representatives to hold a council whom advises and deals with players grievances on how things are done on EVE. They have no power other then to go as an in between for the players and the Devs. It's their form of open communication. There are reps from US, Denmark, UK, Netherlands. Players were able to vote if they were active users for more then 30 days straight, and each person who wished to run could voice their candidacy. Elections took place for two weeks in May of this year. Each candidate had to basically state in their campaigns where they wanted to see EVE in six months to long as possibly six years.

Here is a Wikipedia link about the Council on EVE Online: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_online#Council_of_Stellar_Management

[Alexandria March]

I agree and disagree with you.

Agreements:


ZoMG- True, it should have been out a year ago and I'm gettin impatient and I really want to use it. True, the tickets ARE going up and the people that don't have them feel left out for the three years that they have been waiting. *I* have been on Gaia since 2003 and I suggested it on my first account.

Bots/Hackers- I am getting sick of this too, I have never given out my password and I have been hacked four times. And I have reported it but Gaia Admins or Devs don't do ANYTHING to help it. I'm sick of that too to tell the truth. I want it to stop and to stop it NOW.


Disagreements:

Gold- True, Gaia does have to make money but they AREN'T taking much from you. Think about it. A MC Costs about 2.50 and by the end of two years it costs at least 250K in the market place, am I right? It more than makes up for itself in the long run and I hate that people think Gaia is corrupt and they aren't. People think that Gaia is trying to steal and they aren't, they are merely trying to make a living and stand by it.

The decisions on the ZoMG are wrong about the gold. But how else will they make the money to bring in? By giving away free gold the way that the do for posting, making journal entries, posting on profiles, games, etc. You do have a ton of opprotunities to get gold, and they are only compensating for what they can't have from this, your actual money.

It's a dog-eat-dog world and only the strongest survive. If they don't do this they will crumble and the Gaia you once knew won't be here anymore. So yeah, they DO have to make up for it. Sorry if that disappoints you.


Sincerely,
Isabelle Demos

[[ .NK. ]]

poppylike

It comes down to this: A large group of vocal users, who are by no means the majority, want everything handed to them on a platter for free and they want it yesterday and by no means will they even thank you but you better deliver because they ain't shuttin up.

It really disgusts me.

I have thanked the devs every single time they replied in the thread. I am in no way, shape, nor form blaming the devs for this at all.

People like you not paying attention to the entire OP disgusts me. You make broad assumptions that make us look like whiny brats when you're completely wrong. I support the cash shop. I support the decent MCs - this month was a good start. The blue scarf is nice. I support Gaia making money even if I don't have money to give.

All we're asking for are some changes that are perfectly doable. It's not unreal of us to ask them to stop charging us $10 for an item that we can't even preview, have no idea what will happen with it, that we can only wear one pose of. That's absolutely insane.
Have cash exclusive items. Fine. But lower the damn prices. It will help EVERYTHING. They'll get more sales. We'll be satisfied. The MP prices will come down and the economy will start sorting itself out. It's a win-win-win-win-win-win-win situation. Everyone wins.

Quote:

There are some valid points that have been made in this thread which, I might note, has been visited and commented in by more staffers than I've seen in a long time, in a user-made thread.

Something I'm extremely grateful for. I very much appreciate it.

Quote:

I feel bad for the staffers who've posted, though, because you present very well-reasoned and realistic explanations and people still come in and BAWW!! CASH SHOP!! BAWW!! I CANT HAS EVERYTHING RIGHT NAO!! BAWW!! YOU SUCK GAIA!! BAWWW!!

That was completely uncalled for.

Quote:

I *have* tried zOMG! (my main is a zeta) and my mind is blown by how much work has been put into it. But I can tell you, people will s**t bricks when they see that there are Cash Shop items, no matter how many of them you drop or give out in DC for free or even if they end up costing 2000g in the MP after maybe a week. Too many people, IMO, want everything and don't want to do anything in return. We have only to look at to look at the stock market to see how well that strategy is serving the world.

I've tried it too, and yes, I'm pissed about it. Deal with it - you don't have to like the fact that it's annoying.
I don't want a damn thing handed to me. If they're going expect $10 for items, they can at least make sure the money goes towards fixing the free parts of the site so that everyone can be happy. Things are breaking left and right, and it gets OLD. Fast.

Quote:

I'm lucky in that I am older, have a job in the business world, a business degree and getting another. I have to say I am surprised sometimes at how much Gaia, a privately held corporation under no obligation to do so, gives out information about its finances and business structure. It's quite an act of trust on their part, and people still crap all over them and refuse to believe it.

If people can't get over the fact that Gaia is a business, and they can't listen or even be bothered to read easily understood posts from staffers explaining the core of the business, then too bad. You've made your point known, it's been explained that it's not feasible, and reasonable people will adapt or move on.

So, Gaians, I suggest you do just that: Adapt, or move on. Continue the dialogue, but shut down the screed. Grow up.

I think there's a lot of things they could stop to lower the prices for themselves.

No one told me that all of my suggestions were not feasible. There were quite a few devs that said there were some good ideas. I'm not trying to make Gaia give me my way. I'm not trying to get items for free or anything of the sort. I'm trying to help everyone involved with a ton of suggestions that I personally came up with, taking my own time to think of, write up, and offer - expecting nothing in return.

I love this site and I don't want to see them destroy themselves, which they are slowly but surely doing.

[Kava]

swarf

Quote:

they make bad business decisions.

As a dev, I agree with you. I spent quite a while arguing with the biz guy who set up Aquarium as cash-only and set the prices. My instinct was that we're losing more business than we're gaining by doing that. But, it isn't my decision. And I'm not the expert here. I'm an expert in programming, not in sales. Hopefully the business guys know things I don't. And in the end people will speak their mind with their wallets. And if they disagree with Aquarium, it will have to change. So far, it sounds like a lot of people have bought Aquarium items so maybe I was wrong. If you don't like the way Aquarium is priced, continue to voice your opinion. And more importantly, don't spend on Aquarium. We'll find out who is right after a few weeks.

Quote:

Perhaps users, in protest, should stop purchasing anything from Gaia...

That's certainly one way. But that doesn't teach the biz side at Gaia very much. If you instead put your money where you think Gaia should be focusing, you can train Gaia to spend its energy on those areas. If you want more/better MC items, buy MCs. If no one spends GC on Aquarium, they'll have to give up charging GC for it. Etc.

Swarf- just a note to start off with here... I for one do recognize that it's the money people who are in control, and the devs often have little say in the matter. Unfortunately, for the most part, the money people don't seem to ever listen to what the users have to say.

Part of what you said here, I just had to comment on. Please, read these comments as more directed at Gaia's marketing and 'biz' people than you, because I'd be awfully surprised if any of this had anything to do with you at all. And I honestly don't expect that my saying this here will change anything, or that the 'biz' people will even care about what I have to say (I mean, I'm just a user, I have no degrees in economics, so what do I know?)... but I'm going to say it anyways.

I joined this site about mid-way through 2004, and I bought a minimum of 2 letters every month in 2004, 2005, and 2006, right up through about month 8 or 9 in 2007. After the first few months, I usually bought a minimum of 4 letters. I was regularly spending $30-$50 a month on this site by the end of 2006.

But I got frustrated with the quest system, which I looked forward to for years, having less than 1% quests that were Gaia oriented, and being used mainly for ad-quests. It still is...

I got frustrated with items in the Gaia store like this shirt: http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/announcements/new-limited-edition-t-shirt-in-the-gstore/t.22438295/ which is cool, but the graphics have absolutely NOTHING to do with Gaia. Gaia's never had a snowboard. Still doesn't, in fact. And these tops: http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/announcements/new-hats-hoodies-and-shirts-in-the-gstore/t.23723033/ which also have art that is not remotely related to anything on Gaia.

I got frustrated with the way the site started leaning towards 'we want more $$, right now!', in addition to their increasinly crude ways of promoting their for-sale items... see journal entry: http://www.gaiaonline.com/journal/journal.php?mode=view&post_id=14722529&u=563097 (as a reference, merely because I haven't got a screenshot of the offensive front-page ad, sorry)

And so I decided to stop spending my money on Gaia, because I wasn't happy with what Gaia was doing with my $$.

That decision was re-inforced several times over the next several months. I got frustrated by the arrogance demonstrated by the announcements, proclaiming Gaia to be so BAD-a** that they could take over the #1 ranking on you-tube, or disrupt a TV talk show. "WE SO BAD!" Reference: http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/announcements/news-update-xmas-event-gaia-gifts-gaia-on-youtube/t.35882889/
I got frustrated by even more tasteless promos.. like the ones in January of 2008, which had a pixelated butt and proclaimed MC items to be CL-a**-Y, etc.
Labels were another re-inforcement to this. "Invite your friends by calling them nasty names!!!!" WHAT THE????

And then I just tried to stop caring, because it made me so mad all the time, what the 'BIZ' folks were turning this site into.

So, you tell me, that to get them to change something, I have to sink $$ into it? I can actually see the sense in what you say... that if something is bringing in more $$, they're more likely to devote more resources to it. That makes sense.

Unfortunately, it isn't an acceptable solution to me. The constant influx of LE items via the cash shops into the Gaia market and economy has caused MC values to drop radically in the last year. I know Sagger posted in his journal that prices dropped due to botted gold since June.. that's fine. However, they've been dropping since before that because the EI's and other cash shop items are better made and have more poses, plus there are many more of them released each month than MC's, so they now dominate the market demand, making the neglected MC's no longer worth much gold.

So to do what you suggest, I'd be spending all my $$ on MC's trying to get them to improve their quality, royally screwing myself over in that I'd be getting much less gold for them than what I could get for the same amount of hard cash in EI's, and yet I probably still wouldn't have any impact on the matter... because I'm only one person. Even if I started spending $250/month on Gaia and all of it on MC's, I doubt it would make enough of a dent for them to change anything.

Even if all of us who would like MC's to improve bought only MC's and didn't buy any cash shop items at all.... there are far more cash shop items released each month than there are MC's. It's a battle we could never hope to win.

LE items in the cash shop was the marketing department's way to cash-in on MC's without being limited to only one letter and two or three items a month. The fact that nearly every cash shop item is LE, certainly doesn't help. We used to have 2-3 LE items a month. Now we have, on average, what... 8? a dozen? more? I haven't actually counted.

And no matter how many of us stand up and say, 'okay, that's too far... seriously now...', there's always going to be quite a few who will excuse anything because they're less discriminating, because they want to a**-kiss and hope they achieve becoming a moderator, because they worship Lanzer and in their eyes he can do no wrong, etc....

To sum this up... sorry it's so long...

I can see how, unfortunately, people choosing not to spend $$ here because we don't like the way things are going, causes them to search out new and more outrageous ways to earn revenue.

But perhaps... just perhaps... If the marketing and BIZ people would work on IMPROVING their existing methods, and actually LISTENING to the users instead of merely trying to manipulate us... maybe some of us who have cash to spend, wouldn't mind spending it here again, instead of being so disgusted with the marketing that we don't care to support it with any of our hard-earned cash.

Then again, maybe not. Maybe whatever they did now, would be too little, too late.

In any case.... I, for one, didn't run out of $$ to spend. I just decided Gaia wasn't worthy of it anymore.

Oh yeah... and I agree with you about the Aquariums too. =D

Props to the thread creator - your first post is well laid out... makes what I think are some valid points, though I don't precisely agree with all of them. I cheer for you, because you still have enough faith to try to make yourself heard. I hope you succeed. I lost my faith in that a while back.

~Kava

P.S. Edited to add a note... Yes, I get the CS items. (obvious, since I'm wearing some.) I have a hoard of old letters, etc.. from previous years, which I slowly sell off to buy the new items. It's starting to thin out. When it's gone, I probably simply won't get anything new. Which is sad... my greatest joy on this site is messing around with my avatar and finding new outfit combos.

[Spirit Crusher]

poppylike

It comes down to this: A large group of vocal users, who are by no means the majority, want everything handed to them on a platter for free and they want it yesterday and by no means will they even thank you but you better deliver because they ain't shuttin up.

It really disgusts me.

Don't give me this "vocal minority" bull s**t. If that's true, then why are we even here? Why is there a Site Feedback forum?

I think there are a lot more of us discontented users out there, but most of them have lost the urge to speak up about it. It's gotten so bad that they don't even want to voice their opinion anymore or have even lost interest in the site altogether. It's kinda sad if you think about it...

It's only us die-hard fans that care enough to let them know what we think.

[akela9]

Kava

swarf

Quote:

they make bad business decisions.

As a dev, I agree with you. I spent quite a while arguing with the biz guy who set up Aquarium as cash-only and set the prices. My instinct was that we're losing more business than we're gaining by doing that. But, it isn't my decision. And I'm not the expert here. I'm an expert in programming, not in sales. Hopefully the business guys know things I don't. And in the end people will speak their mind with their wallets. And if they disagree with Aquarium, it will have to change. So far, it sounds like a lot of people have bought Aquarium items so maybe I was wrong. If you don't like the way Aquarium is priced, continue to voice your opinion. And more importantly, don't spend on Aquarium. We'll find out who is right after a few weeks.

Quote:

Perhaps users, in protest, should stop purchasing anything from Gaia...

That's certainly one way. But that doesn't teach the biz side at Gaia very much. If you instead put your money where you think Gaia should be focusing, you can train Gaia to spend its energy on those areas. If you want more/better MC items, buy MCs. If no one spends GC on Aquarium, they'll have to give up charging GC for it. Etc.

Swarf- just a note to start off with here... I for one do recognize that it's the money people who are in control, and the devs often have little say in the matter. Unfortunately, for the most part, the money people don't seem to ever listen to what the users have to say.

So to do what you suggest, I'd be spending all my $$ on MC's trying to get them to improve their quality, royally screwing myself over in that I'd be getting much less gold for them than what I could get for the same amount of hard cash in EI's, and yet I probably still wouldn't have any impact on the matter... because I'm only one person. Even if I started spending $250/month on Gaia and all of it on MC's, I doubt it would make enough of a dent for them to change anything.

Even if all of us who would like MC's to improve bought only MC's and didn't buy any cash shop items at all.... there are far more cash shop items released each month than there are MC's. It's a battle we could never hope to win.

I'm sorry, and I've tried and tried to ignore the comment, but I just can't. I cannot BELIEVE that a developer (Swarf) got on this thread and said, in essence, "Gee, I'm sorry you guys are unhappy... But please make sure you're spending money with Gaia and things will improve." Wait. What? How does that work? So (as Kava said) even if the items are "crap" let's just go ahead and buy them and hope they'll improve, someday?? How is that going to change ANYTHING??

To me it was like Swarf was saying, "Well, I don't really care about the things you think are wrong, so long as you're still giving us cash for the things you think are right." Again, the whole mentality behind the statement was so f'd up that I've put off commenting... And put it off... But I just had to say my piece on this. It was wrong. Very, very wrong. On more then one level.

[Little Miss Mischief]

Spirit Crusher

poppylike

It comes down to this: A large group of vocal users, who are by no means the majority, want everything handed to them on a platter for free and they want it yesterday and by no means will they even thank you but you better deliver because they ain't shuttin up.

It really disgusts me.

Don't give me this "vocal minority" bull s**t. If that's true, then why are we even here? Why is there a Site Feedback forum?

I think there are a lot more of us discontented users out there, but most of them have lost the urge to speak up about it. It's gotten so bad that they don't even want to voice their opinion anymore or have even lost interest in the site altogether. It's kinda sad if you think about it...

It's only us die-hard fans that care enough to let them know what we think.

Thank you. As for Poppy,

It disgusts me to know how narrow minded you are. There are more of us, I've seen three gigantic threads like this one. All with hundreds of unhappy users, and that's just three threads. We never said anything about "having everything handed to us on a silver platter for free yesterday". We know things cost money, you're just apparently not reading 99.9% of what has been said. Or do you even care? We know Gaia has good points, if it didn't then we wouldn't be here. ._.

[Kava]

akela9

I'm sorry, and I've tried and tried to ignore the comment, but I just can't. I cannot BELIEVE that a developer (Swarf) got on this thread and said, in essence, "Gee, I'm sorry you guys are unhappy... But please make sure you're spending money with Gaia and things will improve." Wait. What? How does that work? So (as Kava said) even if the items are "crap" let's just go ahead and buy them and hope they'll improve, someday?? How is that going to change ANYTHING??

To me it was like Swarf was saying, "Well, I don't really care about the things you think are wrong, so long as you're still giving us cash for the things you think are right." Again, the whole mentality behind the statement was so f'd up that I've put off commenting... And put it off... But I just had to say my piece on this. It was wrong. Very, very wrong. On more then one level.

I honestly just thought Swarf was saying that this isn't something he has any control over. These things are decided by Gaia's 'BIZ' people... the people who control the money, the marketing people, etc... not the developers.

I think Swarf was simply trying to proffer some advice as to how to get their attention. IF we managed to make MC's more profitable than CS items, the people who control Gaia's $$ would stop and pay attention and say... 'let's devote more resources to the MC's rather than CS'. That makes sense to me... it really does.

I just had to point out that while I can see how it's true in theory... in a practical sense, we'd never manage to achieve that goal. The sad part is that what Swarf said is probably right. By removing ourselves from the customer base, and no longer feeding our cash to the company, we become part of the 'majority' who isn't helping to fund the site, so the people who look at the numbers and control the money probably don't care what we have to say.

[Chiakumu Hyana]

Hm...*book mark so I know where to read from next*

Well, broke the 200 page barrier, but, since it isn't something that Gaia wishes to talk about in the forums, what about another method?

*pm's NK*