GiraffeMurderer
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Tornado_Creator
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- Posted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:45:57 +0000
Lucky~9~Lives
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At any rate, the point I'm getting at here is that people keep trying to exempt religion from needing to be justified because it's not the same as science. And this is true, but that still doesn't excuse you from needing to justify your claims with sound evidence, because without it--whether you like it or not--your beliefs then are nothing more than irrational and empty claims.
The question is how one defines 'sound evidence' - is 'I love you' also an irrational and empty claim, merely because the only evidence I have for it is my own subjective (and thus inherently uncommunicable directly) experience?
Actually love is shown to have biological causes and changes in brain chemistry are rather apparent however people seem unwilling to accept the explanations probably because they would rather keep the "magic and mystery" intact for love and not understand why we experience it.
Tornado_Creator
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- Posted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:51:56 +0000
Angels_Satire
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Yes, that and them being largely unfounded and often made up on the spot.
'Made up on the spot?' What is made up on the spot?
Quote:
You're a fool
Thank you! I'm also blind to the universe, deaf to it, bumbling about with a fleshy, stupid brain that tries to understand something so complex my species will probably never figure it out. I'm glad I'm not the only one who realizes it.
And you aren't?
Quote:
And this comment achieved what exactly, do you even have a counterpoint
Yes. I don't think think that religion can be studied scientifically.
Quote:
And they can claim all they want, but that doesn't make them right. All these claims are UNFOUNDED and UNPROVEN! Welcome to the point of the conversation where I would normally ask for the evidence, again. But I won't you're a moron, leave the debate, you're making a fool of yourself and I'm afraid your idiocy may be contagious. I may have lost IQ points in this very conversation.
If you have no evidence and no reasonable argument based in reality, you are delusional and should be locked away for the safety and well-being of everyone else.
If you have no evidence and no reasonable argument based in reality, you are delusional and should be locked away for the safety and well-being of everyone else.
I can't say that they are unfounded and unproven, however. I'm not them, it's not my personal evidence to know.
And I do hope my idiocy is contagious. I think it's quite a nice idiocy.
There's a certain irony to you running about and calling everyone delusional, you see, when you strongly support a world view that depends very heavily on everyone else being wrong and you being the sole objective sort.
Aaaah, notice the thinly veiled appeal to popularity in this post.
Yes, the majority is wrong and the majority is delusional if the majority cannot provide proof of their imaginary friends. Now, if you're not going to give me the evidence I ask for, ******** OFF! I would like other people to enter the debate now, you bore me with your incessant circular logic.
Tornado_Creator
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- Posted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:58:18 +0000
porshiadanielle569
Convert to agnostic. xd
It's like atheist but it attempts that there could be or once was a something out there.
because think about it.
Everything had to start somewhere.
It's like atheist but it attempts that there could be or once was a something out there.
because think about it.
Everything had to start somewhere.
No it's not.
You post is an entire psychological profile.
First thing. Having the XD emoticon after a statement that was neither intended as a joke, nor sarcastic, nor even funny in any way, when it's supposed to denote extreme cases of laughter shows that you are incapable of taking yourself seriously.
The content of your post, first of all, doesn't actually make sense. I hope you're not first language English because out of three sentences, two of them are nonsensical and if you're a native English speaker I am severely saddened by your lack of intellect.
As for the one statement that did make sense. "Everything had to start somewhere", well, you are assuming naturally that everything had a start.
Agnosticism is not similar to atheism, in the way it's proposed in debates like this it IS atheism, it's just "weak atheism" proposed by people who don't understand the language they're using. Come back when you have more than a basic understanding of English and we can discuss more.
LordKhrima
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- Posted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:13:18 +0000
If there's a particular religion your hoping to be convinced about, maybe I can help. But the best I could really do is educate you. There's no way I could possibly convince you to convert to anything using concrete facts, it's simply impossible. All religious views are subjective. That and I'm not religious so I don't really want to convert you against your will.
Ratreoz
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- Posted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:16:22 +0000
******** it. I'm converting to ignosticism.
An atheist would say, "I don't believe God exists"; an agnostic would say, "I don't know whether or not God exists"; and an ignostic would say, "I don't know what you mean when you say, 'God exists' ".
Anyone wanna play?
An atheist would say, "I don't believe God exists"; an agnostic would say, "I don't know whether or not God exists"; and an ignostic would say, "I don't know what you mean when you say, 'God exists' ".
Anyone wanna play?
Tornado_Creator
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- Posted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:25:51 +0000
plasma soldier
If there's a particular religion your hoping to be convinced about, maybe I can help. But the best I could really do is educate you. There's no way I could possibly convince you to convert to anything using concrete facts, it's simply impossible. All religious views are subjective. That and I'm not religious so I don't really want to convert you against your will.
I'm surprisingly well educated on religion actually. I don't actually want to be converted in the way you're thinking, I just want people to provide evidence. It appears that people don't understand that the purpose of this thread is to make people consider religion critically and either show me reasonable evidence to believe or stop believing (preferably the second because then that means I'm correct in the assertion that there is no God).
Tornado_Creator
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- Posted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:27:29 +0000
[******** it. I'm converting to ignosticism.
An atheist would say, "I don't believe God exists"; an agnostic would say, "I don't know whether or not God exists"; and an ignostic would say, "I don't know what you mean when you say, 'God exists' ".
Anyone wanna play?
I would but I can't really, I actually do know what they mean if they explain it to me. It would be dishonest to say I don't. However saying that I don't define God and until someone gives me a unified and explanatory definition of God I can get behind this concept.
An atheist would say, "I don't believe God exists"; an agnostic would say, "I don't know whether or not God exists"; and an ignostic would say, "I don't know what you mean when you say, 'God exists' ".
Anyone wanna play?
I would but I can't really, I actually do know what they mean if they explain it to me. It would be dishonest to say I don't. However saying that I don't define God and until someone gives me a unified and explanatory definition of God I can get behind this concept.
GuardianSoulX
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- Posted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:43:58 +0000
Tornado_Creator
GuardianSoulX
Tornado_Creator
GuardianSoulX
Okay, you want a philosophical argument then........? *sigh* Ok...... stressed
Well to the author of this thread, do you actually believe in truth?
Next answer this, do you believe that perfection is a possibility?
Do you believe that everything has a purpose or is everything just so random to accidentally gain a purpose?
Do you believe that you are an animal? And the question that follows is: do you feel that there is more to life?
What do you perceive faith to be? What do you perceive evidence to be?
Is truth opinionated?
And finally........Which existed first: truth or reason?
Answer these questions please and I'll be able to understand your "challenge."
Thank you and have a nice day. ^^
Well to the author of this thread, do you actually believe in truth?
Next answer this, do you believe that perfection is a possibility?
Do you believe that everything has a purpose or is everything just so random to accidentally gain a purpose?
Do you believe that you are an animal? And the question that follows is: do you feel that there is more to life?
What do you perceive faith to be? What do you perceive evidence to be?
Is truth opinionated?
And finally........Which existed first: truth or reason?
Answer these questions please and I'll be able to understand your "challenge."
Thank you and have a nice day. ^^
Ok, interesting questions, I will answer them as best as I can.
1. Do you actually believe in truth?
This is a difficult question, because to believe is to accept something as truth, so you're asking do I accept that truth is true. In other words, does truth exist. I would say yes. It's an assumption I will admit, but it's one that isn't contradicted as of yet, but anything I've encountered and without it we could not make sense of the world around us.
2. Do you believe that perfection is possible?
Not sure if it is really. Perfection is a human ideal, it is based off purposes we set forth. Something can only be perfect if we give it a parameter to meet, and most are unreasonably unlikely or statistically impossible.
3. Do you believe that everything has a purpose or is everything just so random to accidentally gain a purpose?
This is a pointed question but I'll answer it anyway. Purpose is a human ideal, only humans are doing things with purpose and have goals. A rock doesn't have a goal, neither does a ball of ice, a cloud of dust or any other object you care to mention. The only way something has a purpose is if it's specifically crafted with a purpose by people, or assigned a purpose by people. So no, everything does not have a purpose until we give it one.
4. Do you believe that you are an animal?
No. I KNOW that I am an animal. This is self-evident in that I am living and I'm not a plant, fungus or bacterium, therefore I am an animal. It is possible I could be a fifth form of life, but it's so unlikely that it's not worth testing. Human beings however as a species, they are animals.
5. Do you feel that there is more to life?
More than what?
You seem to assume I'm dissatisfied with life as it is... but what do you mean by "more to life", that's ambiguous and makes little sense. More to life than what, debating on the internet. Probably, I'll likely find more direction in life in a few years.
6. What do you perceive faith to be?
Idiotic.
Faith is accepting something as fact without reason, and even in spite of reason. It is the opposite of logic. It is pointless.
7. What do you perceive evidence to be?
Evidence is anything that can objectively support one interpretation of the world to be true. If there is enough evidence, it is considered fact until a single piece of evidence to disprove that interpretation is shown. Some evidence is weak and some is strong, depending on the situation, it's reliability etc.
8. Is truth opinionated?
Truth has no opinion, so no. If you mean is truth subjective, then no, no really. People can accept things as truth that are not, so one person can call something true when it isn't, and as people make mistakes and have inferior knowledge of the world to know all truths it is likely that everyone accepts one or more falsities as truth. I hope to accept as few falsities as possible. Actual truth is not subjective, people however are, and people make mistakes.
9. Which existed first: truth or reason?
Truth. As reason is simply the method by which we observe in an objective manner in order to discern truth, truth must have existed first.
I hope these answers help.
1. Okay. Good response.
2. There's a contradiction in your belief system already. You believe in truth and not in perfection. Is truth not perfection? Truth is perfect; therefore, perfection does exist as well.
I don't recall saying "no" to your question, I just said that perfection is subjective and by most definitions unobtainable. I didn't say it wasn't possible. I see no contradiction.
GuardianSoulX
3. You say that purpose is a human ideal. Are you implying that there truly is no such thing? If there is no purpose, then there is no point to anything. That means that we live in a terrible world because nothing will come out of it. You can never justify an early death with that mentality. A rock is not living. Neither is a ball of ice or a cloud a dust. Why did you choose the nonliving to compare and contrast towards the living? Philosophically that is a fallacy. Your examples do not support your thesis well. You say that humans give things a purpose. So is it that things come into existence without purpose? A human can give a rock a purpose by aligning the rock with his own purpose. The purpose given to the rock is nothing but the human's. Maybe the rock's purpose was to just be. Some rock formations are actually fascinating to look at. A ball of ice could have a purpose depending on what it is doing. Is it rolling? Is it just sitting there? Is it melting? A cloud of dust is driven by the wind is it not? What formed the cloud of dust? How did it get where it is? I believe that everything has purpose. Otherwise, humans would have to control everything. How can you say that humans have given things purposes when those things had been formed before humans came into existence? Truly thing about it unless you are asserting that things are randomly given a purpose and therefore they exist.
Purpose is assigned by intelligence, therefore before intelligence purpose doesn't exist. As people, humans, are the only intelligent thing to assign purpose with the exception of rare examples like chimps using a stick as a tool thus making the stick now hold a function and a purpose, purpose did not exist before the rise of our species.
You make the unfounded assumption that purpose is needed for existence, there's no reason at all to make such an assumption. The rhetoric questions in the above paragraph don't address purpose but rather formation or history, thus are not relevant.
As for your point, why I chose non-living examples. I didn't specifically, I just chose things at random. If you would prefer I will happily claim that an Oak Tree has no purpose unless we say so.
GuardianSoulX
4. Well an animal isn't concerned with rights or wrongs. An animal wouldn't have majority of its population concerned with spirituality (note: animals do not have spirits). And an animal wouldn't seek a religion. An animal's concerns are not the same as ours. We are two different types of creatures. We are human, and they are animals. An animal is driven by nature and instinct.
1. Prove that spirits exist.
2. Show that humans have them.
3. Show that OTHER animals don't.
Humans are physically, biologically and genetically animals. If you wish to debate do not bring unfounded fantastical ideals like spirits into the debate without first showing that it at least exists or you point is nothing more than a complete fallacy.
As for whether animals are concerned with morality, trust me when I say they are. Other animals won't kill each other for fun, humans do. Other animals won't destroy their environment or kill other species for fun, humans do. Other animals are not intelligent by enlarge, but they are social. Most animals only kill for breeding right, food or shelter, or in self defence. These are things that they need to survive and further their genes. They are by far more moral than humans. As for seeking religion, this is not a good thing, seeking religion is something that has held humanity back and killed people in the names of Gods.
GuardianSoulX
5. Is there a problem with the question? If you don't believe in a religion (besides atheism), you seem to think that this is it and it doesn't seem to be anything greater. I, however, believe that there is more to life.
First of all, atheism is not a religion.
Secondly. Your question makes no sense, it has no context. You must elaborate before I can answer. I also don't understand your statement, "I, however, believe there is more to life". More to life than what, what things are you considering not part of life in the general meaning in order for them to be this arbitrary more.
The question should be; "Do you feel that there is more to life than ________ ?" by which, you complete the blank with the thing you are critiquing.
GuardianSoulX
6. Oh but you missed the key point. Faith and reason are properly acquanited. Your faith links your reasoning to your beliefs. It's kind of inevitable.
No. My logical mind dictates my reasoned actions bases of valid observations of reality around me. I do not have faith, faith is idiotic. It is insulting to claim I have faith, I am more intellectually advanced and have more respect for myself than to hold believes without reason and in spite of evidence, only a fool would do such.
GuardianSoulX
7. Okay. I'll take that response.
8. Yes, truth is what it is. People are flawed. Truth is not.
9. lol Good answer. Yes, very good indeed. ^^ Truth had to exist before all matter existed, no? Truth created matter. There is a truth about truth itself. Truth is its own limit. Truth is self-existent. We know this for sure. xd
Thank you. The responses helped. Now if we are to hold Truth as perfect without flaw, then why is the world flawed? This is a sincere question and your answer is much appreciated.
8. Yes, truth is what it is. People are flawed. Truth is not.
9. lol Good answer. Yes, very good indeed. ^^ Truth had to exist before all matter existed, no? Truth created matter. There is a truth about truth itself. Truth is its own limit. Truth is self-existent. We know this for sure. xd
Thank you. The responses helped. Now if we are to hold Truth as perfect without flaw, then why is the world flawed? This is a sincere question and your answer is much appreciated.
Because the world is not truth, and truth is not the world. Also. I would like to point our, a flaw is again another human quality. The world is only flawed because it is not perfect at fulfilling the purpose that you assigned to it. In actuality the world is not flawed for it to be flawed it would need a purpose and all purpose is subjective.
Even still this doesn't get us any closer to either me accepting any on of the 20+ world religions as correct, or, if you would indulge me, you or anyone else for that matter, admitting that none of the current world religions hold any validity and that the truth is not yet known.
I hope this answered some of your questions and addressed your counterpoints.
Well, you already claimed that Truth is not the world. Good. But Truth has to exist. I believe that Truth created the world. And not vice versa. If it is vice versa, then truth is just a made up concept, yet I see it in existence everyday. If Truth existed first, then Truth has created the world. You said that people bring flaws into the world. Doesn't that sound like sin to you?
So let's review very briefly. 1)You believe that Truth was the first to exist. 2)You say that flaw exists through humanity.
The world itself is not flawed for it works purposefully for life to be present. It is what is in the world that makes the world flawed. When I say the world, I mean everything that is going on in the world. If you say there are no flaws, then you are deluded. That would be to say that goodness and righteousness are not key aspects of life. Such a belief is vain.
You wanted proof of a spirit. How do you explain truth? Truth exists yet you cannot see it. It is understood in spirit in your soul. It is understood in the very core of your heart. You feel your emotions in heart which cannot be measured. Your emotions are not felt in your physical heart; otherwise, I could measure it and see the percentage of love in your heart. Lol Truth existed first yet it is not material. If something is just a concept then it does not truly exist for it was made up in the mind first. Truth exists in spirit.
God is Truth. God created all. Wherever there is truth, there is God. ^^
Lets Do The Time-Warp
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You're an athiest because those /can't/ be proven to you.
Not cut the crap and shut your mouth, please, because you know we logically can't prove anything to you.
Religion, of all it's shapes and sizes, is based on FAITH.
It's annoying when people, mostly athiests (I don't have anything against Athiests, however they are the largest group I've seen doing this) asking people to prove something they cannot (while the person asking already knows they can't, and won't believe even if they could) just to make an a** out of them later because they can't.
Not cut the crap and shut your mouth, please, because you know we logically can't prove anything to you.
Religion, of all it's shapes and sizes, is based on FAITH.
It's annoying when people, mostly athiests (I don't have anything against Athiests, however they are the largest group I've seen doing this) asking people to prove something they cannot (while the person asking already knows they can't, and won't believe even if they could) just to make an a** out of them later because they can't.
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- Posted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:14:15 +0000
GuardianSoulX
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GuardianSoulX
Tornado_Creator
GuardianSoulX
Okay, you want a philosophical argument then........? *sigh* Ok...... stressed
Well to the author of this thread, do you actually believe in truth?
Next answer this, do you believe that perfection is a possibility?
Do you believe that everything has a purpose or is everything just so random to accidentally gain a purpose?
Do you believe that you are an animal? And the question that follows is: do you feel that there is more to life?
What do you perceive faith to be? What do you perceive evidence to be?
Is truth opinionated?
And finally........Which existed first: truth or reason?
Answer these questions please and I'll be able to understand your "challenge."
Thank you and have a nice day. ^^
Well to the author of this thread, do you actually believe in truth?
Next answer this, do you believe that perfection is a possibility?
Do you believe that everything has a purpose or is everything just so random to accidentally gain a purpose?
Do you believe that you are an animal? And the question that follows is: do you feel that there is more to life?
What do you perceive faith to be? What do you perceive evidence to be?
Is truth opinionated?
And finally........Which existed first: truth or reason?
Answer these questions please and I'll be able to understand your "challenge."
Thank you and have a nice day. ^^
Ok, interesting questions, I will answer them as best as I can.
1. Do you actually believe in truth?
This is a difficult question, because to believe is to accept something as truth, so you're asking do I accept that truth is true. In other words, does truth exist. I would say yes. It's an assumption I will admit, but it's one that isn't contradicted as of yet, but anything I've encountered and without it we could not make sense of the world around us.
2. Do you believe that perfection is possible?
Not sure if it is really. Perfection is a human ideal, it is based off purposes we set forth. Something can only be perfect if we give it a parameter to meet, and most are unreasonably unlikely or statistically impossible.
3. Do you believe that everything has a purpose or is everything just so random to accidentally gain a purpose?
This is a pointed question but I'll answer it anyway. Purpose is a human ideal, only humans are doing things with purpose and have goals. A rock doesn't have a goal, neither does a ball of ice, a cloud of dust or any other object you care to mention. The only way something has a purpose is if it's specifically crafted with a purpose by people, or assigned a purpose by people. So no, everything does not have a purpose until we give it one.
4. Do you believe that you are an animal?
No. I KNOW that I am an animal. This is self-evident in that I am living and I'm not a plant, fungus or bacterium, therefore I am an animal. It is possible I could be a fifth form of life, but it's so unlikely that it's not worth testing. Human beings however as a species, they are animals.
5. Do you feel that there is more to life?
More than what?
You seem to assume I'm dissatisfied with life as it is... but what do you mean by "more to life", that's ambiguous and makes little sense. More to life than what, debating on the internet. Probably, I'll likely find more direction in life in a few years.
6. What do you perceive faith to be?
Idiotic.
Faith is accepting something as fact without reason, and even in spite of reason. It is the opposite of logic. It is pointless.
7. What do you perceive evidence to be?
Evidence is anything that can objectively support one interpretation of the world to be true. If there is enough evidence, it is considered fact until a single piece of evidence to disprove that interpretation is shown. Some evidence is weak and some is strong, depending on the situation, it's reliability etc.
8. Is truth opinionated?
Truth has no opinion, so no. If you mean is truth subjective, then no, no really. People can accept things as truth that are not, so one person can call something true when it isn't, and as people make mistakes and have inferior knowledge of the world to know all truths it is likely that everyone accepts one or more falsities as truth. I hope to accept as few falsities as possible. Actual truth is not subjective, people however are, and people make mistakes.
9. Which existed first: truth or reason?
Truth. As reason is simply the method by which we observe in an objective manner in order to discern truth, truth must have existed first.
I hope these answers help.
1. Okay. Good response.
2. There's a contradiction in your belief system already. You believe in truth and not in perfection. Is truth not perfection? Truth is perfect; therefore, perfection does exist as well.
I don't recall saying "no" to your question, I just said that perfection is subjective and by most definitions unobtainable. I didn't say it wasn't possible. I see no contradiction.
GuardianSoulX
3. You say that purpose is a human ideal. Are you implying that there truly is no such thing? If there is no purpose, then there is no point to anything. That means that we live in a terrible world because nothing will come out of it. You can never justify an early death with that mentality. A rock is not living. Neither is a ball of ice or a cloud a dust. Why did you choose the nonliving to compare and contrast towards the living? Philosophically that is a fallacy. Your examples do not support your thesis well. You say that humans give things a purpose. So is it that things come into existence without purpose? A human can give a rock a purpose by aligning the rock with his own purpose. The purpose given to the rock is nothing but the human's. Maybe the rock's purpose was to just be. Some rock formations are actually fascinating to look at. A ball of ice could have a purpose depending on what it is doing. Is it rolling? Is it just sitting there? Is it melting? A cloud of dust is driven by the wind is it not? What formed the cloud of dust? How did it get where it is? I believe that everything has purpose. Otherwise, humans would have to control everything. How can you say that humans have given things purposes when those things had been formed before humans came into existence? Truly thing about it unless you are asserting that things are randomly given a purpose and therefore they exist.
Purpose is assigned by intelligence, therefore before intelligence purpose doesn't exist. As people, humans, are the only intelligent thing to assign purpose with the exception of rare examples like chimps using a stick as a tool thus making the stick now hold a function and a purpose, purpose did not exist before the rise of our species.
You make the unfounded assumption that purpose is needed for existence, there's no reason at all to make such an assumption. The rhetoric questions in the above paragraph don't address purpose but rather formation or history, thus are not relevant.
As for your point, why I chose non-living examples. I didn't specifically, I just chose things at random. If you would prefer I will happily claim that an Oak Tree has no purpose unless we say so.
GuardianSoulX
4. Well an animal isn't concerned with rights or wrongs. An animal wouldn't have majority of its population concerned with spirituality (note: animals do not have spirits). And an animal wouldn't seek a religion. An animal's concerns are not the same as ours. We are two different types of creatures. We are human, and they are animals. An animal is driven by nature and instinct.
1. Prove that spirits exist.
2. Show that humans have them.
3. Show that OTHER animals don't.
Humans are physically, biologically and genetically animals. If you wish to debate do not bring unfounded fantastical ideals like spirits into the debate without first showing that it at least exists or you point is nothing more than a complete fallacy.
As for whether animals are concerned with morality, trust me when I say they are. Other animals won't kill each other for fun, humans do. Other animals won't destroy their environment or kill other species for fun, humans do. Other animals are not intelligent by enlarge, but they are social. Most animals only kill for breeding right, food or shelter, or in self defence. These are things that they need to survive and further their genes. They are by far more moral than humans. As for seeking religion, this is not a good thing, seeking religion is something that has held humanity back and killed people in the names of Gods.
GuardianSoulX
5. Is there a problem with the question? If you don't believe in a religion (besides atheism), you seem to think that this is it and it doesn't seem to be anything greater. I, however, believe that there is more to life.
First of all, atheism is not a religion.
Secondly. Your question makes no sense, it has no context. You must elaborate before I can answer. I also don't understand your statement, "I, however, believe there is more to life". More to life than what, what things are you considering not part of life in the general meaning in order for them to be this arbitrary more.
The question should be; "Do you feel that there is more to life than ________ ?" by which, you complete the blank with the thing you are critiquing.
GuardianSoulX
6. Oh but you missed the key point. Faith and reason are properly acquanited. Your faith links your reasoning to your beliefs. It's kind of inevitable.
No. My logical mind dictates my reasoned actions bases of valid observations of reality around me. I do not have faith, faith is idiotic. It is insulting to claim I have faith, I am more intellectually advanced and have more respect for myself than to hold believes without reason and in spite of evidence, only a fool would do such.
GuardianSoulX
7. Okay. I'll take that response.
8. Yes, truth is what it is. People are flawed. Truth is not.
9. lol Good answer. Yes, very good indeed. ^^ Truth had to exist before all matter existed, no? Truth created matter. There is a truth about truth itself. Truth is its own limit. Truth is self-existent. We know this for sure. xd
Thank you. The responses helped. Now if we are to hold Truth as perfect without flaw, then why is the world flawed? This is a sincere question and your answer is much appreciated.
8. Yes, truth is what it is. People are flawed. Truth is not.
9. lol Good answer. Yes, very good indeed. ^^ Truth had to exist before all matter existed, no? Truth created matter. There is a truth about truth itself. Truth is its own limit. Truth is self-existent. We know this for sure. xd
Thank you. The responses helped. Now if we are to hold Truth as perfect without flaw, then why is the world flawed? This is a sincere question and your answer is much appreciated.
Because the world is not truth, and truth is not the world. Also. I would like to point our, a flaw is again another human quality. The world is only flawed because it is not perfect at fulfilling the purpose that you assigned to it. In actuality the world is not flawed for it to be flawed it would need a purpose and all purpose is subjective.
Even still this doesn't get us any closer to either me accepting any on of the 20+ world religions as correct, or, if you would indulge me, you or anyone else for that matter, admitting that none of the current world religions hold any validity and that the truth is not yet known.
I hope this answered some of your questions and addressed your counterpoints.
Well, you already claimed that Truth is not the world. Good. But Truth has to exist. I believe that Truth created the world. And not vice versa. If it is vice versa, then truth is just a made up concept, yet I see it in existence everyday. If Truth existed first, then Truth has created the world. You said that people bring flaws into the world. Doesn't that sound like sin to you?
So let's review very briefly. 1)You believe that Truth was the first to exist. 2)You say that flaw exists through humanity.
The world itself is not flawed for it works purposefully for life to be present. It is what is in the world that makes the world flawed. When I say the world, I mean everything that is going on in the world. If you say there are no flaws, then you are deluded. That would be to say that goodness and righteousness are not key aspects of life. Such a belief is vain.
You wanted proof of a spirit. How do you explain truth? Truth exists yet you cannot see it. It is understood in spirit in your soul. It is understood in the very core of your heart. You feel your emotions in heart which cannot be measured. Your emotions are not felt in your physical heart; otherwise, I could measure it and see the percentage of love in your heart. Lol Truth existed first yet it is not material. If something is just a concept then it does not truly exist for it was made up in the mind first. Truth exists in spirit.
God is Truth. God created all. Wherever there is truth, there is God. ^^
You are twisting my words and I don't appreciate it. Stop it NOW! Intellectual dishonesty will simply get me to hurl a string of abuse at you and ignore you. If you want to debate, debate my actual points not some strawman logic you are designing.
GuardianSoulX
I believe that Truth created the world.
Truth is a concept, concepts cannot create things. You do not understand what truth is and are defining it differently to me. Also you're an idiot.
GuardianSoulX
If Truth existed first, then Truth has created the world.
Just because something exists before another thing does not mean that it is the cause, that is a common logical fallacy (see my topic on logical fallacies).
GuardianSoulX
You said that people bring flaws into the world. Doesn't that sound like sin to you?
Stop relating my sentences to your religion. You're twisting my words to fit your delusion and I really don't appreciate it.
GuardianSoulX
The world itself is not flawed for it works purposefully for life to be present.
Absolute BOLLOCKS! You're assuming the world was purposely intending to create life, as though we where the ultimate intended result of the world. We're ******** incidental! We are the result of what happens when you stick carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and a few other elements in certain ratios, in a clump together and weight 4bn years. Nothing more. Stop getting an inflated opinion of your own self importance.
GuardianSoulX
That would be to say that goodness and righteousness are not key aspects of life. Such a belief is vain.
Really, show me a righteous amoeba then please. ******** IDIOT!
GuardianSoulX
You wanted proof of a spirit. How do you explain truth?
For the last time, truth is a concept, it is simply that something can be known. This does not address the spirit, make sense or ******** off. Seriously, you're starting to piss me off now.
GuardianSoulX
Truth exists yet you cannot see it.
I have more than one sense.
GuardianSoulX
It is understood in the very core of your heart.
The heart pumps blood you moron.
GuardianSoulX
God is Truth.
I don't recall "truth" having a p***s, so why do you keep calling "truth" a him?
On top of this. 'Truth' isn't a conciousness, doesn't create, doesn't rule, doesn't create commandments. AND ISN'T A HIGHER ******** BEING! BE CONSISTENT OR ******** OFF!
Ok. GuardianSoulX. You are officially a moron in my eyes. I will read one further post from you either explaining your points rationally or an admittance that you where talking out of your a**. If the next post contains ANYTHING at all that could be considered a nonsensical claim, a logical fallacy, or outright idiocy I will simply ignore you from now on. This was an interesting debate until you abandoned logic, please regain it before rejoining the debate or I will simply call you a moron incessantly until you go away.
Thank you for taking this time out to humiliate yourself and anger me in public. I'm sure many people have been entertained by it, hopefully someone has learned from it.
Tornado_Creator
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Lets Do The Time-Warp
You're an athiest because those /can't/ be proven to you.
Not cut the crap and shut your mouth, please, because you know we logically can't prove anything to you.
Religion, of all it's shapes and sizes, is based on FAITH.
It's annoying when people, mostly athiests (I don't have anything against Athiests, however they are the largest group I've seen doing this) asking people to prove something they cannot (while the person asking already knows they can't, and won't believe even if they could) just to make an a** out of them later because they can't.
Not cut the crap and shut your mouth, please, because you know we logically can't prove anything to you.
Religion, of all it's shapes and sizes, is based on FAITH.
It's annoying when people, mostly athiests (I don't have anything against Athiests, however they are the largest group I've seen doing this) asking people to prove something they cannot (while the person asking already knows they can't, and won't believe even if they could) just to make an a** out of them later because they can't.
Asking for evidence to prove a claim is the basis of how we judge reality. The only thing that is not held to these standards is religion and it's unfair. Everything else has to prove itself what makes your religion any ******** better.
Now sod off if you're not going to give me evidence, enough people have given me the piss-poor excuse that it's faith thus doesn't require logic or reason DESPITE me specifically telling you all not to in my original post, meaning you have about the intellect of a trained chimp and are simply mimicking each other. You also clearly lack the ability to follow requests. SO ******** OFF!
Lets Do The Time-Warp
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Thank you for taking this time out to humiliate yourself and anger me in public. I'm sure many people have been entertained by it, hopefully someone has learned from it.
I was entertained.
Thank you.
xD~
Thank you.
xD~
Lets Do The Time-Warp
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Tornado_Creator
Lets Do The Time-Warp
You're an athiest because those /can't/ be proven to you.
Not cut the crap and shut your mouth, please, because you know we logically can't prove anything to you.
Religion, of all it's shapes and sizes, is based on FAITH.
It's annoying when people, mostly athiests (I don't have anything against Athiests, however they are the largest group I've seen doing this) asking people to prove something they cannot (while the person asking already knows they can't, and won't believe even if they could) just to make an a** out of them later because they can't.
Not cut the crap and shut your mouth, please, because you know we logically can't prove anything to you.
Religion, of all it's shapes and sizes, is based on FAITH.
It's annoying when people, mostly athiests (I don't have anything against Athiests, however they are the largest group I've seen doing this) asking people to prove something they cannot (while the person asking already knows they can't, and won't believe even if they could) just to make an a** out of them later because they can't.
Asking for evidence to prove a claim is the basis of how we judge reality. The only thing that is not held to these standards is religion and it's unfair. Everything else has to prove itself what makes your religion any ******** better.
Now sod off if you're not going to give me evidence, enough people have given me the piss-poor excuse that it's faith thus doesn't require logic or reason DESPITE me specifically telling you all not to in my original post, meaning you have about the intellect of a trained chimp and are simply mimicking each other. You also clearly lack the ability to follow requests. SO ******** OFF!
First, you won't get anywhere by being an a*****e.
Second, this sentence, "Everything else has to prove itself what makes your religion any ******** better" doesn't make sense. Also, I never said my religion is better. I never even mentioned that I had a religion, did I? I only hinted that I myself am not an athiest. I'm a very open-minded person and believe that whatever path a person takes, as long as they are a decent person, will get them to their place of grace.
I do not concider my religion to be the ONLY one, hell, I even concider that it may not even be true. I concider the possibility that when I die I will just decompose into the earth, as science intended my body to, and I will have no soul to go to my peace.
Religion isn't ment to be real, in my opinion.
It's ment to give people faith and hope.
Humans are naturally afraid to die, minus the minority who aren't.
Thus, giving them a hope lets them die more peacefully.
Religion, when you get down to the very nitty-gritty, is all morals.
It's just telling people how to be good.
Oh and, I didn't read your whole OP.
I've heard speaches like that more than I would like to, and felt that I would rather not waste my time on it.
I apologize, however you can learn to deal with it.
Second, this sentence, "Everything else has to prove itself what makes your religion any ******** better" doesn't make sense. Also, I never said my religion is better. I never even mentioned that I had a religion, did I? I only hinted that I myself am not an athiest. I'm a very open-minded person and believe that whatever path a person takes, as long as they are a decent person, will get them to their place of grace.
I do not concider my religion to be the ONLY one, hell, I even concider that it may not even be true. I concider the possibility that when I die I will just decompose into the earth, as science intended my body to, and I will have no soul to go to my peace.
Religion isn't ment to be real, in my opinion.
It's ment to give people faith and hope.
Humans are naturally afraid to die, minus the minority who aren't.
Thus, giving them a hope lets them die more peacefully.
Religion, when you get down to the very nitty-gritty, is all morals.
It's just telling people how to be good.
Oh and, I didn't read your whole OP.
I've heard speaches like that more than I would like to, and felt that I would rather not waste my time on it.
I apologize, however you can learn to deal with it.
Tornado_Creator
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Lets Do The Time-Warp
Tornado_Creator
Lets Do The Time-Warp
You're an athiest because those /can't/ be proven to you.
Not cut the crap and shut your mouth, please, because you know we logically can't prove anything to you.
Religion, of all it's shapes and sizes, is based on FAITH.
It's annoying when people, mostly athiests (I don't have anything against Athiests, however they are the largest group I've seen doing this) asking people to prove something they cannot (while the person asking already knows they can't, and won't believe even if they could) just to make an a** out of them later because they can't.
Not cut the crap and shut your mouth, please, because you know we logically can't prove anything to you.
Religion, of all it's shapes and sizes, is based on FAITH.
It's annoying when people, mostly athiests (I don't have anything against Athiests, however they are the largest group I've seen doing this) asking people to prove something they cannot (while the person asking already knows they can't, and won't believe even if they could) just to make an a** out of them later because they can't.
Asking for evidence to prove a claim is the basis of how we judge reality. The only thing that is not held to these standards is religion and it's unfair. Everything else has to prove itself what makes your religion any ******** better.
Now sod off if you're not going to give me evidence, enough people have given me the piss-poor excuse that it's faith thus doesn't require logic or reason DESPITE me specifically telling you all not to in my original post, meaning you have about the intellect of a trained chimp and are simply mimicking each other. You also clearly lack the ability to follow requests. SO ******** OFF!
First, you won't get anywhere by being an a*****e.
Second, this sentence, "Everything else has to prove itself what makes your religion any ******** better" doesn't make sense. Also, I never said my religion is better. I never even mentioned that I had a religion, did I? I only hinted that I myself am not an athiest. I'm a very open-minded person and believe that whatever path a person takes, as long as they are a decent person, will get them to their place of grace.
I do not concider my religion to be the ONLY one, hell, I even concider that it may not even be true. I concider the possibility that when I die I will just decompose into the earth, as science intended my body to, and I will have no soul to go to my peace.
Religion isn't ment to be real, in my opinion.
It's ment to give people faith and hope.
Humans are naturally afraid to die, minus the minority who aren't.
Thus, giving them a hope lets them die more peacefully.
Religion, when you get down to the very nitty-gritty, is all morals.
It's just telling people how to be good.
Oh and, I didn't read your whole OP.
I've heard speaches like that more than I would like to, and felt that I would rather not waste my time on it.
I apologize, however you can learn to deal with it.
Second, this sentence, "Everything else has to prove itself what makes your religion any ******** better" doesn't make sense. Also, I never said my religion is better. I never even mentioned that I had a religion, did I? I only hinted that I myself am not an athiest. I'm a very open-minded person and believe that whatever path a person takes, as long as they are a decent person, will get them to their place of grace.
I do not concider my religion to be the ONLY one, hell, I even concider that it may not even be true. I concider the possibility that when I die I will just decompose into the earth, as science intended my body to, and I will have no soul to go to my peace.
Religion isn't ment to be real, in my opinion.
It's ment to give people faith and hope.
Humans are naturally afraid to die, minus the minority who aren't.
Thus, giving them a hope lets them die more peacefully.
Religion, when you get down to the very nitty-gritty, is all morals.
It's just telling people how to be good.
Oh and, I didn't read your whole OP.
I've heard speaches like that more than I would like to, and felt that I would rather not waste my time on it.
I apologize, however you can learn to deal with it.
I tried being polite and it wasn't working, maybe insulting people will make them stop being idiots because after 20+ pages of idiocy I'm getting bored of their inane dribble.
Quote:
Religion isn't ment to be real, in my opinion.
It's ment to give people faith and hope.
Humans are naturally afraid to die, minus the minority who aren't.
Thus, giving them a hope lets them die more peacefully.
It's ment to give people faith and hope.
Humans are naturally afraid to die, minus the minority who aren't.
Thus, giving them a hope lets them die more peacefully.
This is probably the most truth anyone here who wasn't an atheist has conceded.
My question is this then. Is something that is simply a subconscious lie in order to give someone hope then it shouldn't be given the respect it is, (faith is not a virtue it's self-deceit so don't act as though giving it to someone is a good thing, it is profoundly not). It should not be having an impact of laws, politics, or social and personal freedoms. It should not be fuelling wars or allowing people to kill in the name of their Gods. It should not be questioning scientific facts such as Evolution, via people with so little understanding of science that they would fail high-school biology. It should not be holding back scientific advancements as it did in the dark ages, and it should certainly not be treated as an equal to scientific acheivements or on par with scientific theory. Religion is not meant to be real, then stop treating it like it is. If it's simply a psychological barrier to cope with the trauma of accepting mortality then fine, treat it as such, and stop allowing it to rule over the lives of people like me, who have grown intellectually robust enough to not require lying to myself to cope with knowing the truth.
Thank you, this is really all that needs to be said on the topic, but if someone has a unique unsaid point please make it, but keep it intelligent, I have no time for morons now.