Convert Me!!!

[Biot-Savart Law]

GuardianSoulX

GreenEyedPale

FieryDragon250

So your asking to be converted off just logic? Or maybe you asked this because you believe that religions are all made up and can't be backed up?

Well there is proof, but the question is, "Will you be able to see it or will you be too narrow minded?"

First, why does such a topic interest you and so many other people?

If God didn't exist and no religion was right then why would it bother people so much? If no religion was right would religion even matter? Would trying to disproove it actually help people in their short life which would end in nothingness if there was no God? Wouldn't it just be a total waste of time? So why do people even bother trying to fight it?

But even though some believe that there is no God they still fight against people who believe. Why is this? Why does religion bug people who believe an no God?

Everyones life has a spot for friends, hobbies, and other things. These things make our lives fill more complete and when something our lifes have space for is missing then it bugs us. People try to fill voids in there life with stuff like drugs, money, or any other thing of the sort, but they are never truely satisfied.

So could it be that everyone has a spot in their life for God but they are trying to fill it with other things?

Then atheists see people who know God and there is something about them that just bugs them. A satisfaction that they have always yearned for but never been able to obtain, so they out of a subconsciense jealousy decide to disproove religion or argue against it?

But the argueing is just another attempt at filling a void inside which can only be filled by one thing and there attemps only leave them empty inside in the end. They want to be satisfied with life and have the hope people who believe in God have. They want to know that when they die their life won't just end forever. Deep inside they have a small bit of hope that wants to believe in something more than just living and dying.

You can read this and deny the truth, but I hope it will bug you and eventually lead you on the right path to salvation.

Agree

Double Agreed ^^

It bugged me!

I found my path! Now I sit in physics libraries all day long and try and understand it. Or I sit outside and experience glee in thinking about colors, or reorienting myself, or thinking about stars.

...

Wrong kind of salvation?

[Tornado_Creator]

Postulate

Tornado_Creator

Postulate

Tornado Creator: would you prefer the discussion I mentioned earlier via PM, in a new thread, or in this thread?

Whichever you prefer.

Okay, I'll start off right here.

To begin:

What currently causes your state of disbelief?

First I would like to apologise for the wait, I have other obligations but if I don't reply for about two pages that doesn't mean I've left the thread, just that I haven't had the chance to reply yet.

Ok. In answer to you question.

Nothing. Nothing causes my disbelief because I don't have disbelief. To claim such would make it sound as though I have actively chosen to do the opposite of believe. That I have chosen to have faith in non-existence rather than existence. This would be nothing more that belief still, it would still be faith and it would still have no grounding in evidence or reason.

I have no belief. I do not believe. Why? Because nothing has ever given me a reason to believe.

I "disbelieve" specific religions such as Christianity and Islam because there is evidence to suggest they have been fabricated by men in order to control the masses. Often through the use of man written, and extremely badly written at that, scripture.

As for the concept of God itself. The claim seems far-fetched, even ludicrous. Without even a shred of evidence I have no reason to believe it. And the fact that people talk about it so vehemently without evidence and are so emotionally attached to this concept only furthers the reasoning that God is created in the minds of people as a method of coping with things we do not understand or find traumatising such as death. This makes more logical sense, it's consistent with the rest of the world and explains everything in a mundane manner. This God actually existing is not consistent with the world and doesn't really explain anything, simply replacing the word "Why" with the word "God". It is more fantastical and assumes purpose and intelligence on behalf of the universe as a whole which is something that we have no reason to assume. Sure, I have no hard evidence to say that God is an outright delusion, but there is no evidence for God existing either. I can thus conclude that absence of evidence, when we have been exhaustingly looking for it for 6000 years, would be collaborating evidence for absence, and psychological trends indicate that if God doesn't exist the human mind would likely create God to fill in the gaps in understanding and for emotional needs, as I stated before. This seems the most likely scenario so far, it's the most rational of any given so far, and it is internally consistent within out universe. If evidence does not exist, consistency with things in the universe that do have evidence makes for a stronger backing than inconsistency.

I hope this answered your question..

[Tornado_Creator]

Ramdatta

Ratreoz

Ramdatta

What if you are wrong? What if God is real?

Maybe you could give us a reason to even consider the notion?

What if Zeus is real?
What if Odin is real?
What if Cthulhu is real?
What if Quetzalcoatl is real?
What if Mars is real?

Can you give me any reason to consider one over the others?

Yes, yes I can. There is a ancient book, that it took over 1500 years to make, called "The Word"
(In other words, The Bible)
I have heard Him speak to me, weather you believe it or not.
And why dont you answer my question?
Since I know some one will ask, God does not answer non-believers, he has no obligation to them.

So you have an old book which is internally inconsistent, self contradictory, and unreliable at best due to sabotage and mistranslation. You also have schizophrenia which is nice I suppose.

As for your questions.
"What if you are wrong?"

I don't recall making a claim, thus I can't be wrong. I need to make a statement before it can be considered wrong.

"What if God is real?"

I really don't know. You're the theist, you're the one who he supposedly talks to, surely you would know more than me here. Well go on, what if God is real?

[Tornado_Creator]

Ramdatta

Ratreoz

Ramdatta

Yes, yes I can. There is a ancient book, that it took over 1500 years to make, called "The Word"
(In other words, The Bible)

And how is that special? Other religions have older writings.

Quote:

I have heard Him speak to me, weather you believe it or not.

I don't and I feel obligated to suggest that you seek help.

Quote:

And why dont you answer my question?

If I am wrong and Christianity is the truth... I am actually not quite sure. There are so many different stories out there.

Quote:

Since I know some one will ask, God does not answer non-believers, he has no obligation to them.

Just like a parent doesn't have any obligation to an unruly child.

Is it too much to ask that you at least be consistent?

I did not say it was old, it took that long to write the old testament,
I have heard him in my heart.
I am not here to argue, so I will soon leave, but one last thing.
What do you have to lose?

Time, which considering as an atheist, I don't believe I have an infinite afterlife to waste, I would say it's a pretty precious commodity. Something I can't really get back. I have 100 years tops, probably closer to 70 years. That's really not that long... I'd rather not spend it worshipping something if it turns out it doesn't exist.

[Tornado_Creator]

Lucky~9~Lives

Ratreoz

Lucky~9~Lives

Ratreoz

Fact is that we are here and making up stuff as to why isn't going to do any good.

Why not?

Anything we make up will almost certainly be false.

Why can't falsehoods do any good?

If you don't see value in truth and would rather have falsehoods then by all means, you may as well believe in Bigfoot, the Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns and the Celestial Teapot while you're at it. I personally would rather have truth.

[Tornado_Creator]

Radzzi

Our body and this whole world seems too perfect to be made by itself right?

Ask a doctor. Ask an astronomy.

No it really doesn't seem to perfect. Also, if you're going to use that argument for the existence of God here is my counterpoint.
"God seems too perfect to be made by itself right?"
The argument is puerile, try again, and try harder next time, fallacious crap will get you no-where.

Also my doctor is an atheist and I can't "ask an astronomy" because that doesn't actually make sense.

[Tornado_Creator]

Postulate

Hello again (sorry for the late replies - helping set up a wedding).

Quote:

I have yet to learn of any reason to believe in any of mankind's many deities. Moreover, I have observed that the believers usually have a hard time at defending their belief (All have failed so far).

We know, however, that the inability for someone of a belief to prove it to your liking doesn't invalidate it, nor does the prospect of every belief system being wrong discredit the idea of a God existing.

Another question: What would you count as viable reason for God existing? What would your criteria be, and how does those criteria's failure convince you otherwise?

Also, what attributes would you expect a God to have? How do you define "God?"

"viable reason for God existing?" indicates that you consider existence to be purposeful. There doesn't need to be a reason for God to exist, he can just be there, for no reason at all... however if he is, there would be evidence to show that, and there isn't so he isn't.

"what attributes would you expect a God to have?"

Str 16, Dex 14, Int 17, Wis 8, Cha 16 and Sneak Attack 3d6. (No Con score, God has an undead template).

Come on... who the hell am I to say what attributes God should have. God is God, he'll have whatever bloody attributes he has, however first he has to exist.

How do you define "God?"

I don't, you do.

[devilsace]

hyper giggling girl

Look out side trees are a master peice right? and no masterpice can be created with out an artist Jesus is that artist for me.You cant see the wind so how do u know its there???You dont have 2 go to church to be a christen some people rnt christens because they hate church just sit down and read the bible its the thing that will set u strat

trees are nice. i prefer them in winter or fall when they look all dead. i love drawing them around. how do you know that they weren't made from ooze or a spider god dieing or some other god? also it wasn't jesus it was god who is other personality/father/incest creator who made them. twisted

[devilsace]

Tornado_Creator

Radzzi

Our body and this whole world seems too perfect to be made by itself right?

Ask a doctor. Ask an astronomy.

No it really doesn't seem to perfect. Also, if you're going to use that argument for the existence of God here is my counterpoint.
"God seems too perfect to be made by itself right?"
The argument is puerile, try again, and try harder next time, fallacious crap will get you no-where.

Also my doctor is an atheist and I can't "ask an astronomy" because that doesn't actually make sense.

i think they mean astronomer. not realy sure. maybe they whant you go up to an astronomy book and ask it. lol.

heres a funny story (kinda). me and friend of mine from my old job were talking about religion. he has a bacholer in religion. he told me that in the 1500's that there was a group of people who noticed god was imperfect so they came up with the idea that god was created by a perfect god. now this makes me laugh because if god existed and was created by a perfect god then how is god imperfect. lol. meaning if something perfect made you then wouldn't you be perfect too? twisted

[error-dot-tar]

Tornado_Creator

Ramdatta

Ratreoz

Ramdatta

What if you are wrong? What if God is real?

Maybe you could give us a reason to even consider the notion?

What if Zeus is real?
What if Odin is real?
What if Cthulhu is real?
What if Quetzalcoatl is real?
What if Mars is real?

Can you give me any reason to consider one over the others?

Yes, yes I can. There is a ancient book, that it took over 1500 years to make, called "The Word"
(In other words, The Bible)
I have heard Him speak to me, weather you believe it or not.
And why dont you answer my question?
Since I know some one will ask, God does not answer non-believers, he has no obligation to them.

So you have an old book which is internally inconsistent, self contradictory, and unreliable at best due to sabotage and mistranslation. You also have schizophrenia which is nice I suppose.

Actually, about that.

Quote:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith).

The definition of delusion as defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

I don't know about hallucinations, but with delusions, they rule out common religious beliefs before diagnosis.

[Idia]

Dude, the way you're doing this, it will NEVER work.

Seriously, the only way you could EVER believe is if you wanted to.
You could pray. That might work, actually. Pray to want to believe. Maybe. ...

[Idia]

Ratreoz

The Christian ideal of universal love is inhuman. It is better to focus on those close to you.
...

Your own survival outweighs all other concerns.

What does that even mean? "Universal love is inhuman"? Dude, I'm pretty sure that I love everyone I meet, and haven't for that matter, and I'm pretty sure I'm human.

And I think if you really loved the people around you, you'd want them to survive with you. You can't be self-centered, or you'll probably end up miserable.
Hmmm... Maybe that's my problem. ...

[MiniSiets]

hyper giggling girl

Look out side trees are a master peice right? and no masterpice can be created with out an artist Jesus is that artist for me.

Snowflakes are a masterpiece too but as you may already be aware, they form their intricate designs entirely of natural means.

Quote:

You cant see the wind so how do u know its there???

Why do people always act like sight is our only sense? You can still feel the wind with your other 4 senses, smarty. Not to mention that it is a quantifiable force that can be witnessed, measured, and documented in everyday applications. I can't say the same for your god.

Quote:

You dont have 2 go to church to be a christen some people rnt christens because they hate church just sit down and read the bible its the thing that will set u strat

Yes err... of course. I can tell it sure set you "strat." whee

Quote:

Our body and this whole world seems too perfect to be made by itself right?

Not really. There are tons of imperfections about our bodies, yet they are very complex things; that much is certain. But this seems to coincide with the theory of evolution quite nicely without need of appealing to the supernatural.

Quote:

Ask a doctor. Ask an astronomy.

What makes either of these an authority on biology? Ask a biologist. By the way, your argument falls on Irreducible Complexity and God of the Gaps fallacies. I recommend looking 'em up. wink

[Tornado_Creator]

error[dot]exe

Tornado_Creator

Ramdatta

Ratreoz

Ramdatta

What if you are wrong? What if God is real?

Maybe you could give us a reason to even consider the notion?

What if Zeus is real?
What if Odin is real?
What if Cthulhu is real?
What if Quetzalcoatl is real?
What if Mars is real?

Can you give me any reason to consider one over the others?

Yes, yes I can. There is a ancient book, that it took over 1500 years to make, called "The Word"
(In other words, The Bible)
I have heard Him speak to me, weather you believe it or not.
And why dont you answer my question?
Since I know some one will ask, God does not answer non-believers, he has no obligation to them.

So you have an old book which is internally inconsistent, self contradictory, and unreliable at best due to sabotage and mistranslation. You also have schizophrenia which is nice I suppose.

Actually, about that.

Quote:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith).

The definition of delusion as defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

I don't know about hallucinations, but with delusions, they rule out common religious beliefs before diagnosis.

Well yes!!!

The delusional people who control the world, and comprise more than 85% of the world, decided not to include their own delusion, conveniently labelling it "religion" because they don't actually think they are delusional, because they are deluded.

Just because someone believes something that "everyone else believes" it doesn't make it any less of a delusion, it just makes it's a popular ******** delusion. Appeal to majority = logical fallacy, please try again.

If you have proof that God exists please present it. If you have no proof of any kind and yet are so sure I can only assume that you are delusional and are experiencing a hallucination, possible regular hallucinations, or are convinced of an imaginary friend. Please show otherwise if you can.

[Ratreoz]

Radzzi

Our body and this whole world seems too perfect to be made by itself right?

Calling the body "perfect" is just ludicrous.

Postulate

We know, however, that the inability for someone of a belief to prove it to your liking doesn't invalidate it

It is not a matter of proving it to my liking. It is, however, a matter of providing any kind of evidence that can't be explained through simpler means.

Quote:

nor does the prospect of every belief system being wrong discredit the idea of a God existing.

Surely you mean "god".

Quote:

Another question: What would you count as viable reason for God existing? What would your criteria be, and how does those criteria's failure convince you otherwise?

Depends on the kind of god we are talking about. I can't go look for something I know nothing about.

Quote:

Also, what attributes would you expect a God to have? How do you define "God?"

Beats me. You're the theist.

Idia

What does that even mean? "Universal love is inhuman"? Dude, I'm pretty sure that I love everyone I meet, and haven't for that matter, and I'm pretty sure I'm human.

You are debasing the meaning of love. Either that or you need to differentiate between different kinds of "love". Do you love a stranger on the street in the same way you would love a spouse or child?

Quote:

And I think if you really loved the people around you, you'd want them to survive with you. You can't be self-centered, or you'll probably end up miserable.
Hmmm... Maybe that's my problem. ...

"It is better to focus on those close to you."

Love and care for those who actually matters. I am not advocating survival to the exclusion of everything else. That would defeat the purpose.

You can be a loving husband/wife, help your community, etc. and still consider your own survival the most important thing in the world.

Holding that "self-preservation is the highest law" doesn't even have to mean that you won't place yourself in danger for the sake of someone else. However, it does mean that you won't outright sacrifice yourself.

I find it curious that so many people are incapable of understanding this principle.