Selective Salvation

[Jedediah Smith]

Selective Salvation is the belief God has chosen to send certain people to Heaven and the remainder to Hell. This selection (which was made long before the universe was created) was not based on any qualities of the person being selected. It was not based on the person's heart or their future love for God. It was not based on God's foreknowledge of who will eventually choose to accept Him as their Savior. It was not based on their future humility and repentance. This selection was purely random and arbitrary. The people selected to go to Hell could just as easily have been selected to go to Heaven. Even the person selected to go to Heaven has no say in the matter, he is forced to "love" God. This belief system is called Calvinism, Reformed Theology, Election, Predestination, or Selective Salvation. *Note* Calvinism has good beliefs in other areas but this is the only teaching I find to be wrong. *Edit* Perhaps I find 2 two things wrong with Calvinism.

Unconditional Election

I. Out of fallen humanity God chose certain persons unto salvation. God elects people.
II. The number of God's elect is fixed.
III. God does not elect individuals based on foreseen merit of any kind, including faith. Election is an act of God's sovereign choice.
IV God's election and calling are invincible.
V. The purpose and motive of God's election are His glory, "To the praise of His glorious grace!"

Support for Unconditional Election

Eph 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, in Christ; for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will.

Ephesians 1:4 is the core verse for the Unconditional Election teaching but is the Calvinistic interpretation correct? That God chosen certain people to be saved through Jesus Christ? Does the Bible teach this belief system? I don't believe it does.

"... We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of everyone..." 1 Timothy 4:10

"... God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself--a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time." 1 Timothy 2:5-6

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:21

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World, 1 John 4:14; 2 Cor. 5:14, 19; John 1:29

Is Jesus the Savior of the elect or the world? I'm not here to promote Arminianism or Universal Salvation. I'm here to state that mankind has the freewill to seek God and that everyone has the opportunity to be saved.  

[nikochik450]

I do strongly believe in Unconditonal Electional. As one of the Five Points of Calvinism it is something that very few churches still believe in.

Salvation is the choice, selection, of a God who made heaven and earth, moves mountains, dries up seas, creates evil, turns men's hearts, is the source of anything of goodness in man -- this choice, elective love, of God is supreme. Nowhere is this more plainly taught than in the ninth chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans.

Deny the sovereignty of the divine choice, say that a sinner of himself believes, can believe if he but will, and cannot be made to believe, if he will not; and you brush aside with one sweep the entire mass of testimony of Scripture that God is God, and set man on a throne left vacant by a dethroned God.

If a man is by nature dead in trespasses and sin, and thus destitute of spiritual life and power. How, then, can He believe, will to believe, of himself?

Concerning Esau, God hated him before he had done any evil so that the supreme reason of the divine rejection as it devolved upon the older child was not his corruption, the evil works he as a historical phenomenon performed, but the will, the good pleasure, of God. "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will he hardeneth." (Rom. 9: 18 ). Consider that if Esau's total depravity was the supreme reason that compelled God to reject him, the Almighty would have been forced to reject Jacob as well, for he by nature was as depraved as his reprobated brother. This shows that the supreme reason of Esau's rejection was not his wickedness, but the sovereign will of God.  

[nikochik450]

I as well can list many passages in scripture to prove my point.


John 15:16 " Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit..."

Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

II Thessalonians 2:13 "... because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

Romans 9:11 " For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"
 

[Jedediah Smith]

You do realize the Unconditional Election takes away what Christ did on the cross. Those who are not chosen will not have the opportunity to be saved though Christ. They will be justified by their works and will suffer God's wrath on Judgment Day. Mainly the belief is about that mankind does not have the freewill to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love." Ephesians 1:4

There is no doubt that the Scripture teaches that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Here is another Scripture:

"Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will" Ephesians 1:11

The Apostle Paul here has declared eternal truth of what God has done in our lives before we came into existence. I fully concur with the Sovereignty of God and would not dare to go against it. However there is the issue of what Ephesians 1:13 states,

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

Paul within the same passages writes some very interesting things on man's responsibility in response to the Gospel. Paul here first says they listened to the message of truth, which is the Gospel. After listening to the Gospel message of truth they then believed which is a very interesting point. The Gospel message was given to them, they listened, and then they believed, and received the Holy Spirit. Man's part in coming to Christ is to believe the message; there is no doubt about that. The major question is how do we come to Christ? Calvinists say it is God alone that does all the work and that man has no part of receiving Christ.

No one comes to God without first the Holy Spirit leading them to Christ and opening them up to receive the Gospel message. Look at the following Scriptures.

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." John 14:16-17

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you." John 16:7-15

The Holy Spirit according to Jesus was already with the disciples but was not in them. The disciples before the cross were not spiritually reborn, born again, or simply not Christians yet. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is pointing people to Jesus Christ and them receiving the Gospel message. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and shows us that we truly need Jesus Christ and as so many Scriptures clearly show we accept the message or reject the message. The Holy Spirit glorifies the Lord Jesus and it is through the Holy Spirit that people are moved to come to Christ.

Looking at what Jesus said as a whole shows the big picture, and clinging to certain verses truly does an injustice to the context of the message. For example looking at the Gospel of John in it's entirety is very wise, but some have clung to a few passages in attempting to prove their case that man has no choice whatsoever in coming to Christ. Certain passages as John 6:44 says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." This is true, that is what Jesus clearly has said, however what did Jesus say prior to this? In John 6:28-29 and John 6:40 Jesus says things prior to verse 44 which puts everything in context.

"'Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.' (v40) 'For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.'"

Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." So for them to work the works of God they are to believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God who has come to give then eternal life, and believe that the Father has sent the Son. The heart of the Father is that everyone that "beholds" and believes in the Son will have eternal life. The word "beholds" can also mean everyone who "acknowledges, considers, and perceives" within themselves that Jesus is the Son of God will have eternal life. Trying to present this as simple as possible there is two issues that are going on at the same time which is the Sovereignty of God and man's responsibility to receive Christ.

Charles Spurgeon made the following observation of that same issue and said:

A Defense of Calvinism

The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

Charles Spurgeon was a very strong Calvinist and taught against those who say man chooses God without any help from God, which I agree with Spurgeon. It is interesting to see that Spurgeon did acknowledge the responsibility of man to his or her own actions, and what is very interesting is Spurgeon used the words "to his own free will." Now I know that Spurgeon did not teach what is called "free will" today, but he did acknowledge that we are not robots and that we do have our part in making decisions in life. Spurgeon also said that the two lines go together, God's providence and man's actions. Jesus also made this very clear when talking to Nicodemus in John 3.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:16-18

It is clear here that the message is for the whole world, and anyone who a "whoever." One of the major things I do not agree with in Calvinism is that they believe God choose a special people and that the message of the Gospel is not for the whole world, but only the elect of God. Jesus came to give His life for the world and if you are one of those who say Jesus is saying here the "world" was in reference to the elect of God you have got serious problems. Number one you are seriously reading into the text, and number two the context of the passage refutes that view, and number three others Scriptures address the world as being mankind in general.

Jesus came to give His life for all through His death and resurrection. The Scriptures declare that we have been chosen before the foundation of the world, but on what basis? One point I wish to make very clear is that the Scriptures nowhere state that God has created and chosen certain people to go to hell and the lake of fire for all eternity. The late Dr. Walter Martin when asked about this topic said very clearly, "there is no doubt that God has chosen us...and in the Scriptures there is no passage that states God has chosen some to go to hell without them having any decision on their part." Dr. Walter Martin is right; nowhere does any Scripture say that man was created to go to hell or the lake of fire without them having any rational decision in the matter. The message of the Bible from the beginning to the end is that He is fair, just and desires people to come to know Him. Calvinism may not directly say this but in essence to say that God has chosen a certain people to be saved and that man has no decision to make on their part is to say that God has chosen certain people to go to hell and the lake of fire for all eternity.  

[nikochik450]

Jedediah Smith

You do realize the Unconditional Election takes away what Christ did on the cross. Those who are not chosen will not have the opportunity to be saved though Christ. They will be justified by their works and will suffer God's wrath on Judgment Day. Mainly the belief is about that mankind does not have the freewill to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Aha! I see you also have a problem with Limited Atonement?
I don't have the time to reply to your comments now and I apologize, but I will try to do so as soon as possible.  

[Jedediah Smith]

nikochik450

Jedediah Smith

You do realize the Unconditional Election takes away what Christ did on the cross. Those who are not chosen will not have the opportunity to be saved though Christ. They will be justified by their works and will suffer God's wrath on Judgment Day. Mainly the belief is about that mankind does not have the freewill to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Aha! I see you also have a problem with Limited Atonement?

Do I agree with Unlimited Atonement.

nikochik450

I don't have the time to reply to your comments now and I apologize, but I will try to do so as soon as possible.

Dont worry, please take your time! heart  

[ioioouiouiouio]

nikochik450

Concerning Esau, God hated him before he had done any evil so that the supreme reason of the divine rejection as it devolved upon the older child was not his corruption, the evil works he as a historical phenomenon performed, but the will, the good pleasure, of God

You are limiting God. You are placing God in a linear time-lime that makes it impossible for God to be omnipotent.

You see, time does not exist, as it is simply a way to measure duration. God, being eternal, has no 'duration' and, as such, is outside the concept of time. in short, God is in the Past, the Present, and the Future, all at once. God may have hated Esau 'before' Esau commited the sin, however, this idea of 'before' is only seen by us humans, as, to God, Esau had already sinned.  

[nikochik450]

Cometh The Inquisitor

nikochik450

Concerning Esau, God hated him before he had done any evil so that the supreme reason of the divine rejection as it devolved upon the older child was not his corruption, the evil works he as a historical phenomenon performed, but the will, the good pleasure, of God

You are limiting God. You are placing God in a linear time-lime that makes it impossible for God to be omnipotent.

You see, time does not exist, as it is simply a way to measure duration. God, being eternal, has no 'duration' and, as such, is outside the concept of time. in short, God is in the Past, the Present, and the Future, all at once. God may have hated Esau 'before' Esau commited the sin, however, this idea of 'before' is only seen by us humans, as, to God, Esau had already sinned.

I am not limiting God. Saying that God loves everyone and that it is only up to us to choose Him, is limiting God. Saying that God does not have the power to save everyone because it is up to them to decide whether or not they are saved, is limiting God.

Now you say that God only decided to hate Esau because He knew he was going to commit the sin? Of course God knew that Esau was going to sin, of course God is int the present, past, and Future but.....we all commit sin. God does not hate us all. He has chosen to forgive His chosen people's sins.  

[nikochik450]

Quote:

You do realize the Unconditional Election takes away what Christ did on the cross. Those who are not chosen will not have the opportunity to be saved though Christ. They will be justified by their works and will suffer God's wrath on Judgment Day. Mainly the belief is about that mankind does not have the freewill to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ok, so do you believe in freewill? Maybe you believe that God in eternity simply looks down the corridors of history, sees who will choose Him and who will not, elects those who do an rejects teh rest? So than predestination is reduced to mere presience. God than just chooses thsoe who choose Him>

The folly with this is that is salvation depended on man's choice, no man would be saved.

" As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:10-12

John 15:16...."Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you...."  

[nikochik450]

Quote:

No one comes to God without first the Holy Spirit leading them to Christ and opening them up to receive the Gospel message. Look at the following Scriptures.

Of course that is the only way. Man can do nothing of Himself. From birth we have hardened our hearts against God. Jsut because God has chosen us does not mean that we automatically have a love for God in our hearts. God uses the work of the Holy Spirit. through this work He accomplishes what we call the Tow Edged Sword. The hearts of God's people are opened whiel he further hardens the hearts of the reprobate.  

[nikochik450]

Quote:

The Holy Spirit according to Jesus was already with the disciples but was not in them. The disciples before the cross were not spiritually reborn, born again, or simply not Christians yet. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is pointing people to Jesus Christ and them receiving the Gospel message. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and shows us that we truly need Jesus Christ and as so many Scriptures clearly show we accept the message or reject the message. The Holy Spirit glorifies the Lord Jesus and it is through the Holy Spirit that people are moved to come to Christ.

I can not understand where you get that the Holy Spirit was already with the disciples, but not in them. Jesus says to us that God the Father will send to us the Holy Spirit in the authority of Jesus Christ in order that the Holy Spirit might be ours in our hearts. That is how this passage should be interpreted. It clearly teaches that salvation is entirely the work of God. It was God who planned and prepared our salvation in His decree of eternity.  

[nikochik450]

Quote:

Looking at what Jesus said as a whole shows the big picture, and clinging to certain verses truly does an injustice to the context of the message. For example looking at the Gospel of John in it's entirety is very wise, but some have clung to a few passages in attempting to prove their case that man has no choice whatsoever in coming to Christ. Certain passages as John 6:44 says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." This is true, that is what Jesus clearly has said, however what did Jesus say prior to this? In John 6:28-29 and John 6:40 Jesus says things prior to verse 44 which puts everything in context.

Yes......some do only cling to certain passages which is a very sad thing indeed. So therefore in looking at the whole text. The interpretion of John 6:40 and others is, therefore, that only those whom God has chosen believe on Him because God has drawn them to HIm.  

[nikochik450]

Quote:

Charles Spurgeon was a very strong Calvinist and taught against those who say man chooses God without any help from God, which I agree with Spurgeon. It is interesting to see that Spurgeon did acknowledge the responsibility of man to his or her own actions, and what is very interesting is Spurgeon used the words "to his own free will." Now I know that Spurgeon did not teach what is called "free will" today, but he did acknowledge that we are not robots and that we do have our part in making decisions in life. Spurgeon also said that the two lines go together, God's providence and man's actions. Jesus also made this very clear when talking to Nicodemus in John 3.

Man does have a will. God created each man with a will, and by
this will we make many choices every day. The error is when men believe that they have a free-will. Free-willism is a serious error and contrary to scriptures.

1) The Bible teaches us that the will of man is not free but is bound to the eternal, unchangeable, sovereign will of God.

2) The Bible teaches us that the will of man is held in spiritual bondage to sin and can not will that which is ethically and morally good, apart from regeneration.

3) The Bible teaches that true, spiritual freedom is the precious gift which God gives only to His people through Jesus Christ.  

[nikochik450]

Quote:

It is clear here that the message is for the whole world, and anyone who a "whoever." One of the major things I do not agree with in Calvinism is that they believe God choose a special people and that the message of the Gospel is not for the whole world, but only the elect of God. Jesus came to give His life for the world and if you are one of those who say Jesus is saying here the "world" was in reference to the elect of God you have got serious problems. Number one you are seriously reading into the text, and number two the context of the passage refutes that view, and number three others Scriptures address the world as being mankind in general.

Jesus came to give His life for all through His death and resurrection. The Scriptures declare that we have been chosen before the foundation of the world, but on what basis? One point I wish to make very clear is that the Scriptures nowhere state that God has created and chosen certain people to go to hell and the lake of fire for all eternity. The late Dr. Walter Martin when asked about this topic said very clearly, "there is no doubt that God has chosen us...and in the Scriptures there is no passage that states God has chosen some to go to hell without them having any decision on their part." Dr. Walter Martin is right; nowhere does any Scripture say that man was created to go to hell or the lake of fire without them having any rational decision in the matter. The message of the Bible from the beginning to the end is that He is fair, just and desires people to come to know Him. Calvinism may not directly say this but in essence to say that God has chosen a certain people to be saved and that man has no decision to make on their part is to say that God has chosen certain people to go to hell and the lake of fire for all eternity.

I believe taht you denied that you were in any way promoting Arminianisn before....did you not?
How can you say that Christ came to die for the whole world.....and not be promoting ARminianism? If Christ came to die for the whole world...yet can't unless man chooses to let Him...is that not promoting Arminianism?

In using John 3:16...and deny the Calvinistic point of view that the world simply means the elect....are you not clinging to this one verse? Are you not denying all other places in scripture that say that God's saving love is for His elect people only?

The word "world" is simply stating that God's love is not only for the Jews, who were always called God's chosen people before, but now thise Gentiles who are his chosen, are now included as well.

By nature all should go to hell. By our human nature we can do nothing, we are sinful, and can not even compare to the dust of teh ground in God's sight. God shows His majesy, power, and loving grace in saving His people.

We all prove that we should not go to heaven day after day. In saying that we have a choice in whether or not we are saved...denys God's power. If we all deserved salvation of ourselces...your arguement would be valid but, since we can do nothing of ourselves...than it is not discriminating to say that God chose some and rejected others. God is under no obligation to save any so why shoudl he not see fit to chose some? Romans 9:15 "I will have mercy on whom I will ahve mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion"  

[nikochik450]

Oh yeah, one personal question that I have. How old are you?