The Hordes of Chaos

[Drachyench]

Daemon_King

and I figure it is going to be a Tzeentch Daemon Prince taking Lore of Metal since pratically everthing in this game has a 1+ armour save.

Will likely depend on what army Chaos faces.

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Nurgle Daemon Princes get T6, T7 would make them untouchable against most things.

Then perhaps they should have just gone with +1W and gave a default toughness of 6. Toughness 5 means my big 'uns will need 4's to wound in the first round of combat. A 50-50 shot for a mortal to harm a Daemon.

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Oh, did I mention that Marks can mix like Daemon Armies. I figure you're gonna see a lot of Tzeentchian Daemon Princes, level 4 wizards, leading more then just units with the Mark of Tzeentch.

This is one of the things I dislike, not in gameplay terms, but in terms of fluff. Palace of the Plague Lord (And the majority of novels featuring Chaos in general) are full of instances of bickering caused by minor differences between factions.  

[Shinobi_8745]

That link breaks the GW IP law, it should be removed sadly.

Anyways, I read some stuff back at warseer and I'm glad to finally be able to field an all troll army~  

[Caleidah]

*cough*

As my Mod duties insist, that link must be removed.

You have 24 hours to get everything off of it that you want, then it goes away.  

[explodeyFox]

Let's start with a few things:
First off, the removal of Mark of Chaos Undivided and giving reroll panic tests as an army rule is absolutely amazing. I have about 40 chaos warriors and already have my mitts on the new Lord on Juggernaught (thank you, GW), and Chaos's new rules are absolutely nuts. Slaneesh warriors are just absolutely nuts, immune to psychology, 2 attacks at s4 ws5 in cqc with a 2+ (chaos armor + shield + hand weapon bonus) armor save. I highly advise using a large block of chaos warriors (my army has a block of 20 as the main advance) that can take on any undead/terror/fear units out there. Unfortunately, I see the mark of Tzeentch as absolutely useless in most cases. My (as well as the GW employees I work with) argument is that the other marks give off so much more utility versus a 6+ ward. Frenzy and a 2+ save tears up lizzies and heavily armored enemies, slaneeshi stops undead, and Nurgle solves numbers. However, that "One more chance" spent on Brettonian knights is useful, but with warriors and such, you don't have to guard your points as much.

I must say, however, Tzeentch makes his comeback with casting. Some of the most insane spells imaginable, but the lack of the battle wizards tactic leaves something to be desired from casting. The Hellcannon is so useful now that the tournament played armies are more fragile than normale (5+ ward on daemons ISN'T fantastic, contrary to popular belief), and the long range support is not only direly needed, it's almost required. Plus, with your enemy trying to take out that monstrosity, it saves your soldiers time and turns to flank your enemy, or distract some shooting away.

Finally (at last, I know. I want to paint my Jugger!!!), The new chaos knights I am a bit cautious of. The magical attacks and such is nice, but the cost leaves open a big "should I use it?" gap. Don't be tempted by their sexy new models (I'm buying 3-4 boxes or so....), the chariots are still nasty in their own right. Oh and I'm surprised no one has mentioned Chosen.  

[Shinobi_8745]

Slaanesh have a rule that allows them to use additional hand weapons and shields in the same turn? That's not legal unless you have some kind of special rule, which I doubt they have, isn't it more like black orcs, they have tons of weapons that allows them the choice to swap.

5+ ward on daemons IS fantastic you know... o 3o;;  

[Drachyench]

explodeyFox

First off, the removal of Mark of Chaos Undivided and giving reroll panic tests as an army rule is absolutely amazing.

Not really. Can't we have any vanilla troops that have no benefits beyond their own profile stats?

Oh, right, that's Empire's schtick and GW be damned if they write another Army Book that doesn't churn out purchases like the Dwarf, High and Dark Elf books have.

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I have about 40 chaos warriors and already have my mitts on the new Lord on Juggernaught (thank you, GW), and Chaos's new rules are absolutely nuts.

Agreed. I dislike how they're removing rivalry, turning Tzeentch into "We be durable!" instead of specialist powerful Wizards, but for the most part this seems a solid book.

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Slaneesh warriors are just absolutely nuts, immune to psychology,

They already were this.

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2 attacks at s4 ws5 in cqc with a 2+ (chaos armor + shield + hand weapon bonus) armor save.

I could have sworn Chosen had a higher WS than 5.

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I highly advise using a large block of chaos warriors (my army has a block of 20 as the main advance)

As do I, my Bolt Throwers and Magic Missiles don't get enough points per game as is.

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that can take on any undead/terror/fear units out there.

This is true, but Undead does not break like Mortal armies. And charging your slow moving WS5 unit into a block of Zombies seems about the worst of actions one could take. Skeletons likewise. Though I will admit you'll have many laughs when the Ogre player charges you and fails to deliver. Needing 4's to hit, 4's to wound, and you shrugging off 2/3 the hits. You'll wreck 'em.

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Unfortunately, I see the mark of Tzeentch as absolutely useless in most cases. My (as well as the GW employees I work with) argument is that the other marks give off so much more utility versus a 6+ ward.

Because an army with a level five mage that isn't a special character would just be silly. +1 to Ward is silly, but if GW does with Fantasy what it did with 40K you can look to your Chaos Lords starting off with some sort of Aura of Chaos or something for a base Ward. By the way, continue to have fun with the most powerful non-special character choice list in the game.

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Frenzy and a 2+ save tears up lizzies and heavily armored enemies,

Khorne still gives Frenzy? This seems a bit odd with the moving away from Frenzy for Demons. Killing Blow would have seemed much more likely, though this is fine by me.

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slaneeshi stops undead,

Stops Ogres better. Undead can fight a battle of attrition. Ogres not so well.

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I must say, however, Tzeentch makes his comeback with casting.

Then all is right in the world.

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Some of the most insane spells imaginable, but the lack of the battle wizards tactic leaves something to be desired from casting.

Can Lords still be Wizards, or is that Sorceror Only now?

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The magical attacks and such is nice, but the cost leaves open a big "should I use it?" gap.

If facing Forest Spirits or Daemons I say yes. For others, I'd say only use on Orcs and maybe a few other lists that lack the oh-so-critical shooting for taking such units down.

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Don't be tempted by their sexy new models (I'm buying 3-4 boxes or so....), the chariots are still nasty in their own right. Oh and I'm surprised no one has mentioned Chosen.

I think you just did at the top, considering basic Chaos Warriors come with Heavy Armor and not Chaos Armor.  

[Shinobi_8745]

Ya, chosens come with WS6.

But IIRC the normal warriors now only cost 1 more point than they used to, and get a bonus attack AND chaos armour... THAT'S INSANE! SERIOUSLY! What is GW thinking with? D:  

[Drachyench]

Shinobi_8745

Ya, chosens come with WS6.

But IIRC the normal warriors now only cost 1 more point than they used to, and get a bonus attack AND chaos armour... THAT'S INSANE! SERIOUSLY! What is GW thinking with? D:

Push the unused army [compare Chaos to the amount of Dwarf, Orc, or High Elf players] with so many buffs that people start to buy it and throw the original problems [only M4] to the wind of concerns?  

[explodeyFox]

Drachyench_The_Eternal

I think you just did at the top, considering basic Chaos Warriors come with Heavy Armor and not Chaos Armor.

A little behind the times, are we?
Try again

And if you knew anything about competitive battles, the current meta-game is gearing up against CD magic and DD use. That's why losing the level 1 wizards on characters hurts the army slightly, but having 2+ armor save core choices (If you're too lazy to look, Warriors get chaos armor for free, no chosen upgrade. And before any excuses, this information has been leaked for months...) with -1ws to the enemies in cqc, and the ability to add +D3 to any casting roll, a level 4 wizard daemon prince (with MR2 and 3+ Ward against magic) is enough to make the power-creep VC players cry.

Overtly, people are massively shrugging off the new WoC lists, but covertly, they've received some amazing improvements. Although I will miss the old book (having some Daemonettes of Slaneesh makes an army look SO good...), the new book has the possibility of being very good.  

[ColinMackay]

So, are we onto talking about the new Warriors of Chaos army or is this late discussion of Hordes? If this is about Warriors, do you think it time to retire this thread and work with a new one(what with the daemons having their own codex now and the armies being quite different).  

[Shinobi_8745]

We're talking about the new chaos book now (which is pobvious because it's about to get released).

And I don't see the reason to make a new thread, since we can still use this one and maybe change the name to Warriors of Chaos or whatever the new OP book will be called. rolleyes  

[ColinMackay]

Fair enough. The new book looks interesting, though I'm still new to the Fantasy side of GW(gamewise, I know a lot of the fluff). It's been a tough road because I have ~10 armies for 40K, and the GW employee that originally went to show me how fantasy works rolled me hard on my first game, and the other employees told me afterwards that he also cheated throughout the entire game.

To say the least, I'm excited to see all of the updates/additions of miniatures that comes with the Spearhead box, but I'm not sure if it's completely worth it or not because it has a lot, and I do mean a lot of special characters that I don't see myself using. Here's everything that's included, save for the book that is.

10 multi-part plastic Chaos Warhounds, five multi-part plastic Marauder Horsemen, five multi-part plastic Chaos Knights, five metal Warriors of Chaos Chosen Command, five metal Warriors of Chaos Chosen, one metal Khorne Lord on Juggernaught, one metal Nurgle Chaos Sorcerer, one metal Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount, one metal Wulfric the Wanderer, one metal Sigvald the Magnificient and one metal Khorne Chaos Champion.

Now I've always been one for Tzeentch myself, and have been slowly been warming up to Khorne, but I still can't get behind Slaanesh, and I still loathe Nurgle. Are there advantages to delving into the other two or do you think that I should stick to my guns? Also, I have no qualms with Chaos Undivided.

I'm not worried about the sticker price, so that's not a factor. So do you guys think that it's worthwhile to get into this with the Spearhead?  

[Drachyench]

Unless made an act I'm not aware of, regular Chaos Warriors should still work fine to represent Chosen. They're like Gutter Runners and Night Runners: Gutter Runners are better models and the 'official' unit, but Night Runners can be doubled and often GW staff members won't mind in friendly games so long as you differentiate beforehand.

And I say go with that. 16 Chaos Warriors in one box instead of two for only ten and command is better, unless Chaos Chosen are now cheaper than the Warrior box.

Go with Tzeentch, anyways. With the loss of Dispel Dice from Khorne, you're going to need sorcerers anyways and if you're going to take magic casters you may as well take those who give buffs.  

[ColinMackay]

I was highly considering up until I did the math. Suddenly it's not as good of a deal as I had thought. Aside from the part of there being 4 figures in there that I wouldn't use(Sigvald the Magnificent, Chaos Lord on Juggernaut, Nurgle Chaos Sorcerer, Khorne Chaos Champion($75 in total)), I did the math and there's no discount whatsoever. The total of $271 is the same cost if I got everything separately.

Whilel looking around, I think I may have found a better deal with the Warriors of Chaos Horde as it has a lot more figures, and I only have to cope with the Lord on Juggernaut being the one using that I may not use. Aside from that there's the Storm of Steel box. Yes, I still wind up with a Nurgle Sorcerer that I'll never use, I'm just torn if I really want all of those Marauders. Who knows, it might be worth while to get both down the line if I can, but long and short of it is that the Spearhead is just getting the figures and the book early at the same cost. Can I get your input on which of the other boxes that I listed would be better?