The Ogre Kingdoms

[Stumpy2000]

Reddemon

I'd say more likely a 4+ save. Out numbered is one way to tarpit a unit like that. Say you have 3 of them right? And charge a unit of 20 skeltons with spears with light armour and shields(if they can do that). The spears go first and maybe inflict 4 hits, with one wound saying they get lucky. You retaliate with 15 attacks from the orges(5 each with charging and iron fists). You might his with 75% of the attacks if you roll well so you'd have 11 attacks. You'd probly end up with 6 or 7 woulds. Now saying they make atleast 1 oe 2 armour saves, you would of killed 4-5 skeltons. 5 - 20 is only 15, which gives them a rank bonus and outnumbering, full command would equal them winning combat. You'd pass your Ld test, and it would become their turn. Necromancer dose his funky thang, and makes say... another 7 okay? you now have to kill more of them, and aslong as you dont dispell the spell, he can just keep going keeping them there until they've been ground down. (Yes I know, I ommited the mounts attacks, as their stats arnt going to make or break the combat)

3+ with heavy armour, 2+ in combat with the iron fist

ok, but surely the strength of them removes the armour save a bit. the rhinox impact hits and attacks at s5 (s6 if bull rhinox)
{unrelated question, are impact hits taken before spears?}

ive heard from people that the best tactic is to go into the flanks whilst a unit of bulls or iron guts hit the front.

another tactic is an expensive decoy, cause people would concentate all the misile fire on them whilst the other ogres get into charge range

ive decided to not to use an army of them, but still think a unit or 2 is worth taking  

[Reddemon]

Stumpy2000

Reddemon

I'd say more likely a 4+ save. Out numbered is one way to tarpit a unit like that. Say you have 3 of them right? And charge a unit of 20 skeltons with spears with light armour and shields(if they can do that). The spears go first and maybe inflict 4 hits, with one wound saying they get lucky. You retaliate with 15 attacks from the orges(5 each with charging and iron fists). You might his with 75% of the attacks if you roll well so you'd have 11 attacks. You'd probly end up with 6 or 7 woulds. Now saying they make atleast 1 oe 2 armour saves, you would of killed 4-5 skeltons. 5 - 20 is only 15, which gives them a rank bonus and outnumbering, full command would equal them winning combat. You'd pass your Ld test, and it would become their turn. Necromancer dose his funky thang, and makes say... another 7 okay? you now have to kill more of them, and aslong as you dont dispell the spell, he can just keep going keeping them there until they've been ground down. (Yes I know, I ommited the mounts attacks, as their stats arnt going to make or break the combat)

3+ with heavy armour, 2+ in combat with the iron fist

ok, but surely the strength of them removes the armour save a bit. the rhinox impact hits and attacks at s5 (s6 if bull rhinox)
{unrelated question, are impact hits taken before spears?}

ive heard from people that the best tactic is to go into the flanks whilst a unit of bulls or iron guts hit the front.

another tactic is an expensive decoy, cause people would concentate all the misile fire on them whilst the other ogres get into charge range

ive decided to not to use an army of them, but still think a unit or 2 is worth taking

How do they get a 3/2+ save? Best they could have would be light armour, mounted adds 1, and the hide would probly count as barding, which is 1  

[Stumpy2000]

Reddemon

How do they get a 3/2+ save? Best they could have would be light armour, mounted adds 1, and the hide would probly count as barding, which is 1

rules i am looking at

light armour 6+
mounted 5+
Rhinox Hide 4+
light armour can be upgraded to heavy to make it 3+, and in combat the iron fist cant be used for an extra attack, only the save, so 2+ in combat  

[Razorith Vulsroy]

Reddemon

I'd say more likely a 4+ save. Out numbered is one way to tarpit a unit like that. Say you have 3 of them right? And charge a unit of 20 skeltons with spears with light armour and shields(if they can do that). The spears go first and maybe inflict 4 hits, with one wound saying they get lucky. You retaliate with 15 attacks from the orges(5 each with charging and iron fists). You might his with 75% of the attacks if you roll well so you'd have 11 attacks. You'd probly end up with 6 or 7 woulds. Now saying they make atleast 1 oe 2 armour saves, you would of killed 4-5 skeltons. 5 - 20 is only 15, which gives them a rank bonus and outnumbering, full command would equal them winning combat. You'd pass your Ld test, and it would become their turn. Necromancer dose his funky thang, and makes say... another 7 okay? you now have to kill more of them, and aslong as you dont dispell the spell, he can just keep going keeping them there until they've been ground down. (Yes I know, I ommited the mounts attacks, as their stats arnt going to make or break the combat)

The numbers you used in that equation are a little off. Now, unless I'm mistaken, spears don't strike first against cavalry charges, that would be pikes. So we've got the Rhinox Riders going first with 10 attacks from our ogre friends. Against skeletons, we can expect roughly 7-8 hits, and roughly 3-4 wounds on average, of which 1 or 2 should save. Then, the Rhinox themselves attack slapping down 9 more attacks, approximately 6 hits, and 5 wounds on average with a strength high enough to negate skellie armor. 7 dead skeletons, (not counting any impact hits that would have occured). Skeletons get three attacks back, maybe 1 or 2 hit, and with lucky rolls, one wounds. 2+ save means it's all good. Full Command on both sides, outnumbering goes to the undead, as do three ranks combat score of 5. Ogres caused 7 wounds with a standard for a score of 8. Three more skeletons now crumble into dust because of their rules.

Those were all using average rolls, and regular rhinox as opposed to the Bull Rhinox, which would kick a lot more a**.  

[Stumpy2000]

Razorith Vulsroy

Those were all using average rolls, and regular rhinox as opposed to the Bull Rhinox, which would kick a lot more a**.

and as you mentioned, no impact hits.

i must admit though, against a tough close combat unit, they would not kill as many, and could easily loose without flank support.

still unsure whether to use them, 500+ pts for bull rhinox and full unit upgrades  

[Reddemon]

Stumpy2000

Razorith Vulsroy

Those were all using average rolls, and regular rhinox as opposed to the Bull Rhinox, which would kick a lot more a**.

and as you mentioned, no impact hits.

i must admit though, against a tough close combat unit, they would kill as many, and could easily loose with support.

still unsure whether to use them, 500+ pts for bull rhinox and full unit upgrades

like I said, they can be tarpitted, and I ommited some rules, as they may or may not be charged, or whatever(I included the hits for charging though).  

[Stumpy2000]

bull rhinoxes however have a unit strength of 6

so surely if a unit of three faced a combat unit of 20, and killed 4, they would have a great chance of winning the combat

also we havent mentioned that they cause fear or terror

im not sure they would suffer from shooting either before they hit combat, as only a fool would concentrate all their fire on one unit

and as for using magic to stop them before they hit combat, taking a couple of dispel scroll would see to that, plus ogre items seem to be great at nullifying or at least deflecting magic onto other units  

[Drachyench]

Stumpy2000

Reddemon

How do they get a 3/2+ save? Best they could have would be light armour, mounted adds 1, and the hide would probly count as barding, which is 1

rules i am looking at

light armour 6+
mounted 5+
Rhinox Hide 4+
light armour can be upgraded to heavy to make it 3+, and in combat the iron fist cant be used for an extra attack, only the save, so 2+ in combat

Ironfist only counts for Hand Weapon and Shield bonus, not Shield + Hand Weapon and Shield, so 3+ is the best you can get.

Oh, and pity the poor Rhinox player who charges an 8x4 unit of Pikemen. 32 attacks (33 with command) before they strike, with S4 and somewhere between WS2 (Alcanti), and WS4 (Republic). 16 hits, 5 wounds if T5 for the riders, 4+ save so 2-3 wounds. Add in 3 ranks, standard, and outnumber (As oppossed to standard and wounds), Rhinox Riders need 6-7 wounds to tie (not impossible, though it does rely on above average rolling).  

[Stumpy2000]

Drachyench_The_Eternal

Ironfist only counts for Hand Weapon and Shield bonus, not Shield + Hand Weapon and Shield, so 3+ is the best you can get.

how is this?

what is the point in being able to have them for the unit if they get nothing from them. the rhinox rules (see link in post above) claim they only get the save from them and cant use them for the the attack

and no-one is saying that rhinox can take an army on singe handedly, but what is the leadership of pikemen? surely there is quite a chance that they may fail a terror or fear test.  

[Reddemon]

Stumpy2000

Drachyench_The_Eternal

Ironfist only counts for Hand Weapon and Shield bonus, not Shield + Hand Weapon and Shield, so 3+ is the best you can get.

how is this?

what is the point in being able to have them for the unit if they get nothing from them. the rhinox rules (see link in post above) claim they only get the save from them and cant use them for the the attack

and no-one is saying that rhinox can take an army on singe handedly, but what is the leadership of pikemen? surely there is quite a chance that they may fail a terror or fear test.

Most likely average human Ld(7 I think) Which is easy to get. Besides, when your facing fear and terror, you ususally stick a hero close by for the Ld boon  

[Drachyench]

Reddemon

Stumpy2000

Drachyench_The_Eternal

Ironfist only counts for Hand Weapon and Shield bonus, not Shield + Hand Weapon and Shield, so 3+ is the best you can get.

how is this?

what is the point in being able to have them for the unit if they get nothing from them. the rhinox rules (see link in post above) claim they only get the save from them and cant use them for the the attack

and no-one is saying that rhinox can take an army on singe handedly, but what is the leadership of pikemen? surely there is quite a chance that they may fail a terror or fear test.

Most likely average human Ld(7 I think) Which is easy to get. Besides, when your facing fear and terror, you ususally stick a hero close by for the Ld boon

Or Alcanti Fellowship, who's both Ld8, and are immune to psychology (I laugh at your terror). Add in WS4, you get a good unit.

Besides, if a unit of Ogre's can insta-rout an enemy with the fear test, no offence, though said enemy is an idiot. Ogre's rarely go beyond 24 unit strength (And that alone is a 300+ point unit), whilst pikemen do best in a minimum of 28 (7x4).

Though my best response? Give the pikemen to the ogres as a rare choice! Pikemen take the objective, Ogres bash aside anything that tries to take it back.  

[Stumpy2000]

Drachyench_The_Eternal

Give the pikemen to the ogres as a rare choice! Pikemen take the objective, Ogres bash aside anything that tries to take it back.

sure i suppose

but i like armies with a backstory of some kind, and why would ogres hire someone when they want to be hired?

unless i convert something up and use the pikemen stats profile
ogres do capture slaves afterall  

[Razorith Vulsroy]

If you really want to run some Rhinox in the army, just take a single unit of them as a rare and special choice. Forge World published rules for them, and one unit is really all you need to mess up your opponent anyways. After that, go with a more streamlined composition. Personally, I'd suggest something like this:

Tyrant with Tenderiser, Gut Maw, Wyrdstone Necklace
Butcher with Dispel Scroll and Bangstick
Butcher with Dispel Scroll
Butcher with Dispel Scroll

3x Bulls with Iron Fists and Light Armor
3x Ironguts with Standard and Musician
3x Ironguts with Standard and Musician
3x Ironguts with Standard and Musician

3x Bull Rhinox Riders with Heavy Armor, Iron Fists, Full Command.

The list comes to a total of 1998 points, packs a good bit of magic, magic defense, and plenty of hitting power. The one unit of Rhinox Riders can do plenty of damage, and should have enough wounds/toughness/armor save to make sure they don't get shot to pieces by less than a full artillary assault. And hey, even if they do get completely shot up, your ironguts, bulls, tyrant and butchers have more than enough back bone to pick up the slack.

For a variation of that, try cutting out a butcher in favor a gorger for some anti-warmachine power, or throw in a unit of yhetees to give you some faster flankers.

Edit: Oh, and if you really wanted to protect the unit of Bull Rhinox Riders, give them the banner that lets them pawn magic spells cast onto them onto another friendly unit with 6", this way your bulls can deal with any of the big nasty spells of doom.  

[Reddemon]

Razorith Vulsroy

If you really want to run some Rhinox in the army, just take a single unit of them as a rare and special choice. Forge World published rules for them, and one unit is really all you need to mess up your opponent anyways. After that, go with a more streamlined composition. Personally, I'd suggest something like this:

Tyrant with Tenderiser, Gut Maw, Wyrdstone Necklace
Butcher with Dispel Scroll and Bangstick
Butcher with Dispel Scroll
Butcher with Dispel Scroll

3x Bulls with Iron Fists and Light Armor
3x Ironguts with Standard and Musician
3x Ironguts with Standard and Musician
3x Ironguts with Standard and Musician

3x Bull Rhinox Riders with Heavy Armor, Iron Fists, Full Command.

The list comes to a total of 1998 points, packs a good bit of magic, magic defense, and plenty of hitting power. The one unit of Rhinox Riders can do plenty of damage, and should have enough wounds/toughness/armor save to make sure they don't get shot to pieces by less than a full artillary assault. And hey, even if they do get completely shot up, your ironguts, bulls, tyrant and butchers have more than enough back bone to pick up the slack.

For a variation of that, try cutting out a butcher in favor a gorger for some anti-warmachine power, or throw in a unit of yhetees to give you some faster flankers.

Edit: Oh, and if you really wanted to protect the unit of Bull Rhinox Riders, give them the banner that lets them pawn magic spells cast onto them onto another friendly unit with 6", this way your bulls can deal with any of the big nasty spells of doom.

Gw has put the rules into White Dwarf already. So the Forge World ones are obselete.  

[Razorith Vulsroy]

Eh, they're the same rules. The only difference is Bull Rhinox are now an upgrade as opposed to being standard.