Actually a Wiccan

[MST3Kakalina]

AisuruTsuki

thing is the first half of the bible was writen by the hebrews. none of which were christan, christianity didnt come till later.

I know that. It's irrelevant to the point. I'm not a stranger to the history of Christianity, trust me.

You cannot base something like historical beliefs on "feeling." Yes, there's always been folk superstitions, yes there was Crowley and the OTO and the OGD and all of that, which predates Gardner, but Wicca's history as an organized religion begins in the 50's. If you have proof otherwise, why not share it?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

AisuruTsuki

thing is the first half of the bible was writen by the hebrews. none of which were christan, christianity didnt come till later.

That actually doesn't really matter when marking the inception of Christianity. The Christian Bible is the Old Testament and the New Testament. The words of Jesus Christ are what make Christianity, Christianity and not Judaism. I think you realize this but won't admit it--"christianity didnt come till later" is exactly the point. The history of Christianity is inextricably tied to the history of Judaism, but Christianity as an explicit religion has a start date.

Now, depending on who you are (and I realize this weakens my point somewhat) and which scholars you support (or, I suppose, are), you may have doubts and arguments as to when this exact start date or period is--does it date from Jesus' life, or his death, or when his words were codified and set down, or when the mechanism of Christianity that has carried through to today began, and so on.

However, all of these theories are based on historical evidence. The doubt about the true beginning of Christianity stems from the difficulty of obtaining and working with records from the period in question and ties into philosophical debates about the true meaning, purpose, and mechanism of religion itself--but there simply was no Christianity before Jesus. Jesus is the Christ upon which Christianity hangs.

You can't have Elizabethan England without Elizabeth, Victorian England without Victoria, Showa Japan without Hirohito, or Edo Japan without Tokugawa. You can't have Wicca without Gardner. We can all list personal influences on our faith until Doomsday, but not one of us is Wiccan unless initiated by a lineaged coven that goes all the way back to Gardner.  

[TeaDidikai]

AisuruTsuki

i feel it debatable. it may still be a newer religon but i dont think he may have been the first. that is my opinion.

Please note- this is not an attack on you in any way shape or form. But the very nature of a Fluffy Bunny is one who's opinions stand in the face of historical fact.

Here's what we know about Wicca and Gardner. Gardner claimed to be initated into a coven. That coven- should it exist, was a Witchcraft Coven, not a Wiccan coven, as it wasn't until Gardner used the information he learned through research and work with Heremtic Christian Magical Orders to combine everything he did as "Wicca", a modern religion. This was further distinguished by insights that Gardner had revealed to him by the God and Goddess that make up the mysteries of Wicca. These mysteries have never been given to the non-initiated.

Now, of note, Witchcraft and Wicca are not the same thing.

Quote:

i know that most facts will trace it mostly back to him but i still have that feeling that there was a little more before him. and i do understand that it was created based off of other religions. most religons are. but i really dont think he was the absolute first. but that is opinion based of fact, personal beliefs and speculation based off of research. its what i believe personally. now for anyone else who says "IT MUST BE THIS" i will accept your views, maybe question them but im not going to say you absolutley wrong unless its somthing that is entirley incorrect, and even then i try to word it to get them questioning rather then tell them what i read isnt right. and those are my two cents.

Could you please provide the sources that made up your research?  

[saint dreya]

MST3Kakalina

yeah, but in picking disciples, isn't that making the first Christians, who then later evangelized and founded churches? the fact that Jesus was Jewish doesn't really negate the fact that he had disciples after him that carried on this new religion that wasn't Judaism.

all of jesus' disciples were jewish. they were all jewish together. they continued to be jewish until peter (or paul, i've forgotten) started responding to letters asking him if prospective followers of jesus of nazareth had to observe kosher. that set it off. jesus of nazareth's disciples were not christian after they followed him, they were still jewish. they believed that the messiah had come, however.

once nazareth came, they didn't suddenly not celebrate sedar. they didn't suddenly move their sabbath to sunday. they didn't suddenly stop celebrating purim. they were still jewish. over time, they became christian. i'm sure some of them died jews though, and christianity took awhile to truly be seen as seperate.

AisuruTsuki

i feel it debatable. it may still be a newer religon but i dont think he may have been the first. that is my opinion. i know that most facts will trace it mostly back to him but i still have that feeling that there was a little more before him. and i do understand that it was created based off of other religions. most religons are. but i really dont think he was the absolute first. but that is opinion based of fact, personal beliefs and speculation based off of research. its what i believe personally. now for anyone else who says "IT MUST BE THIS" i will accept your views, maybe question them but im not going to say you absolutley wrong unless its somthing that is entirley incorrect, and even then i try to word it to get them questioning rather then tell them what i read isnt right. and those are my two cents.

gardner's originality has been addressed by others, enough to where i don't think i have to address it. but, i wish to also address a following point.

gardner is the creator of wicca. he didn't let anyone know his mysteries until they were initiated. only initiated wiccans really know what wicca is about. so, if only initiated wiccans can know what wicca is about, only initiated wiccans can truthfully and accurately change certain details of wicca (and become their own branch off) while still allowing it to be wicca. so, all validly wiccan paths stem from gardner.  

[TeaDidikai]

phoenix_shadowwolf

MST3Kakalina

yeah, but in picking disciples, isn't that making the first Christians, who then later evangelized and founded churches? the fact that Jesus was Jewish doesn't really negate the fact that he had disciples after him that carried on this new religion that wasn't Judaism.

all of jesus' disciples were jewish. they were all jewish together. they continued to be jewish until peter (or paul, i've forgotten) started responding to letters asking him if prospective followers of jesus of nazareth had to observe kosher. that set it off. jesus of nazareth's disciples were not christian after they followed him, they were still jewish. they believed that the messiah had come, however.

once nazareth came, they didn't suddenly not celebrate sedar. they didn't suddenly move their sabbath to sunday. they didn't suddenly stop celebrating purim. they were still jewish. over time, they became christian. i'm sure some of them died jews though, and christianity took awhile to truly be seen as seperate.

Nope. All that took place after Paul and James (or was it Peter?) had it out.