Artificial vs. Natural?

[Sivirs]

There's been some debate here and there about manmade things vs. natural things, and how they affect magic.

Has anyone noticed any significant difference in working with the two? I've heard from people who work with laboratory-created gemstones that they still get an energy off them, but that it's a different one from the stones found in nature.

I haven't experienced anything like this myself, but has anyone else? Do you get different results casting a spell with old, natural ingredients than you do if you used newer, modified or completely artificial ingredients? Is there really a difference, and if so, is it the big deal some authors/pagans make it out to be, or is it a negligible difference? Would a banishing spell using paper and fire be inherently more successful than a banishing spell using a floppy disk and a magnet?

I'd love to contribute more to the conversation myself, but like I said, I haven't often experienced a difference, so I'm more interested in other peoples' experiences.  

[wicked_faery]

i'm not sure...when it comes to spells i've really only done binding spells. & for those i always used objects either made or used the the person in question, ribbon & burrying it in the earth (which every time i can never find the things to see if anything been done to them even though i marked the spots) or burning the objects. so i haven't really worked w/ manmade materials.  

[Gingerbread . Coffin]

As I base most of my stuff on nature, I wouldn't know. o _o;  

[TeaDidikai]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Tenzin Chodron]

私はボリアナズさんが大好きだよ。

ll the chaote in me says that it's purely psychological,
that it doesn't matter whether something you're
using in your work is "natural" or "artificial" (the
buddhist in me has something to say about those
two words, too, but i'll let that one slide), it's about
how you personally feel about those things. do
they have more meaning to you personally if they
are "natural" or do you like the finished look of
something "man-made" (be it just a finishing or
something completely constructed from out of
base parts)? what has more oomph for ? 3nodding ll

地蔵菩薩

 

[Starlock]

Artificial? Natural? I am of the mind that no thing that exists can be anything other than natural. Humanmade things are entirely natural, though perhaps refined in a different way. I'm not particularily picky about what I use at this point given the dorm-room limitations on my practice. So perhaps I haven't noticed much. I place value and sacredness in all things regardless of their origin. Though I usually like working with things that have been minimally refined, I wouldn't shun something because it has been. Or if it is refined, make them your own refinements. The power of your own creativity can be quite a strong thing!  

[Sivirs]

[ Jizo Bosatsu ]

私はボリアナズさんが大好きだよ。

::squints:: You love who? (sorry, insatiable curiosity)

--

Quote:

Artificial? Natural? I am of the mind that no thing that exists can be anything other than natural. Humanmade things are entirely natural, though perhaps refined in a different way.

See, I agree that manmade things are still natural because we're part of nature, but the distinction I was hoping to make (difficult, since the words hold their own implications) is not that "OMGZ RETURN TO TEH EARTH!!!" down with The Man stuff, rather that manmade things don't naturally occur without our prodding ('cause if there's a DVD+R tree growing somewhere, TAKEMETOITNOW), and so I'm wondering how that affects the energy or usefulness of the objects, if it does at all.

Jizo's of the opinion that individual perception has more to do with it, and I can see that too.

Really, my question isn't so much about the value of one over another, although I did include it as a discussion point (whether a non-manmade or manmade ingredient spell would be superior, if either would), but whether anyone's noticed a difference that goes beyond the psychological, whether an object's energy is different after we've altered it (lab-created gemstones being my prime example, since that's what I've heard about most often from Pagans), and to what end.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sivirs

See, I agree that manmade things are still natural because we're part of nature, but the distinction I was hoping to make (difficult, since the words hold their own implications) is not that "OMGZ RETURN TO TEH EARTH!!!" down with The Man stuff, rather that manmade things don't naturally occur without our prodding ('cause if there's a DVD+R tree growing somewhere, TAKEMETOITNOW), and so I'm wondering how that affects the energy or usefulness of the objects, if it does at all.

Jizo's of the opinion that individual perception has more to do with it, and I can see that too.

Really, my question isn't so much about the value of one over another, although I did include it as a discussion point (whether a non-manmade or manmade ingredient spell would be superior, if either would), but whether anyone's noticed a difference that goes beyond the psychological, whether an object's energy is different after we've altered it (lab-created gemstones being my prime example, since that's what I've heard about most often from Pagans), and to what end.

And I think that has everything to do with context.

Be it the context of a spell, a tradition or whatever else.

For example, if someone is looking to use Amber in a spell that is centered upon the concept of lifeblood being aged to perfection and that perfection being whole unto itself and eternal- the use of reconstituted amber wouldn't be the best bet.

If one is looking to make an oil blend to relax the mind that is suffering from ETS, synthetic oil- energy wise, would not be a good choice.

However, reconstituted hemetite for the sake of having a ritual mirror made of hemetite is valid unto itself.

If we could make animal blood for sacrifice, how much of a sacrifice is it within the tradition?  

[Tsuzuki]

TeaDidikai

(NOT A WORD TSUZUKI!) scream

 

[TeaDidikai]

Tsuzuki

TeaDidikai

(NOT A WORD TSUZUKI!) scream

~Poke~ stare  

[Tsuzuki]

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

TeaDidikai

(NOT A WORD TSUZUKI!) scream

~Poke~ stare

You summoned me?  

[LadyEladrin]

I find that things that are closest to their 'natural' unrefined state work best for me. They're closest to their original form and in my mind (again with the psychology) more pure and full of energy that is waiting to be tapped. I think a LOT of it is psychology though. I know technopagans who have no trouble at all working with their harddrives and floppies instead of beeswax candles and essential oils.  

[TeaDidikai]

Tsuzuki

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

TeaDidikai

(NOT A WORD TSUZUKI!) scream

~Poke~ stare

You summoned me?

Warded against you would be more accurate.  

[Starlock]

There is that psychological aspect. Magic can be explained pretty much entirely with a psychological explanation, but that doesn't mean its the only correct explanation. Psychologically (or magically for that matter) a lot of the properties of an object have to do on context, as Tea mentioned. People have different ways of doing things and in a lot of respects, magic can be like science. You try different things out until you find something that is effective for you. Whether that object be natural or refined by human beings will matter mostly if you let it matter. Or will it?

Perhaps it's an open question, then. whee  

[Lotus Poem]

Quote:

Really, my question isn't so much about the value of one over another, although I did include it as a discussion point (whether a non-manmade or manmade ingredient spell would be superior, if either would), but whether anyone's noticed a difference that goes beyond the psychological, whether an object's energy is different after we've altered it (lab-created gemstones being my prime example, since that's what I've heard about most often from Pagans), and to what end.

See I don't think I can answer that objectively. I recognize that I have a purely psychological pull to use things as natural as I can get them. And I mean that in all aspects of my life, (spray cheese will never see the inside of _my_ kitchen!) Though I would say I've felt a difference when using a synthetic oil (some eos are downright dear these days!) or an "enhanced" gemstone, I think that may be mostly my personal prejudice speaking. I will rationalize when I have to and take the approach that everything is natural but I try not to.