has anyone here read the apologetics study bible?

[rmcdra]

TeaDidikai

whiporwill-o

i see (i think) thank you 3nodding

I'd really rather you ask questions than remain confused.

ditto. It helps me understand my tradition better too.  

[whiporwill-o]

ok. so, jewish myth holds no standing in christian beliefs except for maybe just to know it?

Quote:

The trick when it comes to understanding Christendom in the context of Jewish myth is that you have to jump from metaphorical concepts present in Yeshua being an avatar of YHVH to literal understandings within Judaism.

could you dumb this down a bit for me, please? my cold medicine is kicking in and, after re-reading it, i kind of have no idea what you really said here. sweatdrop

what does revelations say is actually needed to fulfill the messianic prophesies? sad to say, all i know of revelations is what they show on the history channel, which has proven to be unreliable and i do not want to learn from a mistranslation, ie the NKJ bible.  

[TeaDidikai]

whiporwill-o

ok. so, jewish myth holds no standing in christian beliefs except for maybe just to know it?

According to mainstream Christendom, they worship YHVH and the prophesies in the Old Testament predict Yeshua's arrival as the son of YHVH/etc.

Quote:

Quote:

The trick when it comes to understanding Christendom in the context of Jewish myth is that you have to jump from metaphorical concepts present in Yeshua being an avatar of YHVH to literal understandings within Judaism.

could you dumb this down a bit for me, please? my cold medicine is kicking in and, after re-reading it, i kind of have no idea what you really said here. sweatdrop

So, to be the Messiah, you have to meet the requirements issued in the Old Testament. Well, there are a bunch of these that Yeshua didn't meet. Christians say that he met them in metaphorical ways, or that he will meet them in the Second Coming, but this isn't present in Jewish tradition.

Quote:

what does revelations say is actually needed to fulfill the messianic prophesies? sad to say, all i know of revelations is what they show on the history channel, which has proven to be unreliable and i do not want to learn from a mistranslation, ie the NKJ bible.

No... It's not Revelations setting out prophecy. It's that some of the things that are described of Nero Caesar in Revelations are also shallow characteristics of the Messiah.

So, people are likely going to confuse the Jewish Messiah with scathing commentary about Nero when the Jewish Messiah comes.  

[whiporwill-o]

TeaDidikai

whiporwill-o

ok. so, jewish myth holds no standing in christian beliefs except for maybe just to know it?

According to mainstream Christendom, they worship YHVH and the prophesies in the Old Testament predict Yeshua's arrival as the son of YHVH/etc.

Quote:

Quote:

The trick when it comes to understanding Christendom in the context of Jewish myth is that you have to jump from metaphorical concepts present in Yeshua being an avatar of YHVH to literal understandings within Judaism.

could you dumb this down a bit for me, please? my cold medicine is kicking in and, after re-reading it, i kind of have no idea what you really said here. sweatdrop

So, to be the Messiah, you have to meet the requirements issued in the Old Testament. Well, there are a bunch of these that Yeshua didn't meet. Christians say that he met them in metaphorical ways, or that he will meet them in the Second Coming, but this isn't present in Jewish tradition.

Quote:

what does revelations say is actually needed to fulfill the messianic prophesies? sad to say, all i know of revelations is what they show on the history channel, which has proven to be unreliable and i do not want to learn from a mistranslation, ie the NKJ bible.

No... It's not Revelations setting out prophecy. It's that some of the things that are described of Nero Caesar in Revelations are also shallow characteristics of the Messiah.

So, people are likely going to confuse the Jewish Messiah with scathing commentary about Nero when the Jewish Messiah comes.

oh, ok. i understood all of that. thanks bunch!  

[TeaDidikai]

Welcome.

Please note, I'm of the opinion that The Revelations of John of Patmos should never have been included in the canon.  

[whiporwill-o]

TeaDidikai

Welcome.

Please note, I'm of the opinion that The Revelations of John of Patmos should never have been included in the canon.

why do you feel that way? is there a different gospel (i forget what they're called if excluded from the bible) that would be better? or do you think it should have just ended with the book of jude?  

[TeaDidikai]

whiporwill-o

TeaDidikai

Welcome.

Please note, I'm of the opinion that The Revelations of John of Patmos should never have been included in the canon.

why do you feel that way? is there a different gospel (i forget what they're called if excluded from the bible) that would be better? or do you think it should have just ended with the book of jude?

I haven't decided if there was another book I would replace it with. I'm opposed to it because I dislike social commentary on current events being mistaken for religious Truth.

It's kinda like how I wouldn't want to add a Xena Manga onto any copies of Greek Mythology I would own.  

[whiporwill-o]

TeaDidikai

I haven't decided if there was another book I would replace it with.

fair enough.

Quote:

I'm opposed to it because I dislike social commentary on current events being mistaken for religious Truth.

this i agree with wholeheartedly.  

[TeaDidikai]

whiporwill-o

TeaDidikai

I haven't decided if there was another book I would replace it with.

fair enough.

I've been thinking about this a bit more.

Basically The Revelations of John of Patmos was added for two reasons:
1) Books need endings
2) Apocalyptic Lit serves a political role when written.

I know that the Apocalypse of Saint Peter was the alternate text considered, but I haven't familiarized myself with it enough to weigh it as a good alternative.

But then- what I think should have been included as canon matches up with... well, no Christian's idea. For one, I'm a big fan of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas as a description of the transition from fully Divine to Divine and Mortal Yeshua, and it makes a good justification for the changes from the OT to the NT deity.

There are some other issues I have with canon- like the fact I think Saul never actually converted and was merely trying to wipe Christendom off the face of the earth, but I don't want you to confuse my personal opinions with fact.  

[rmcdra]

Well Marcion was fond of Saul's letters...

That aside, if Valentinius was telling the truth, then he claims succession from Saul as well.

Personally concerning Saul, he seemed to do more to separate Christianity from Judaism... okay I think I see where you are going with this now.

If this was a good or bad thing, that's debatable to say the least.  

[TeaDidikai]

rmcdra

Personally concerning Saul, he seemed to do more to separate Christianity from Judaism... okay I think I see where you are going with this now.

I need a Wiggle Eyebrow emoticon.  

[rmcdra]

TeaDidikai

rmcdra

Personally concerning Saul, he seemed to do more to separate Christianity from Judaism... okay I think I see where you are going with this now.

I need a Wiggle Eyebrow emoticon.

Yeah we do. And on that. Peter and James did not get along with Paul but from what I understand they came to a compromise of sorts. Obviously it wasn't a very long lasting one.  

[TeaDidikai]

rmcdra

Peter and James did not get along with Paul but from what I understand they came to a compromise of sorts. Obviously it wasn't a very long lasting one.

There's a good reason that two people who were filled with the Holy Spirit in Yeshua's own presence wouldn't approve of Saul in my book. ninja  

[rmcdra]

TeaDidikai

rmcdra

Peter and James did not get along with Paul but from what I understand they came to a compromise of sorts. Obviously it wasn't a very long lasting one.

There's a good reason that two people who were filled with the Holy Spirit in Yeshua's own presence wouldn't approve of Saul in my book. ninja

So the issue of wanting to break from Judaism would not be reason enough.

If what you are suggesting is true, that would give evidence to Marcion's claim of his Gospel being the source material for Luke  

[TeaDidikai]

rmcdra

So the issue of wanting to break from Judaism would not be reason enough.

If what you are suggesting is true, that would give evidence to Marcion's claim of his Gospel being the source material for Luke

Luke is part of the Synoptic Gospels though. confused