Pagan Manners

[WebenBanu]

TeaDidikai

1) Not everyone is able to play by the rules it takes to work the system you have set out.

How so, Tea? Can you think of an example? I honestly want to know.^_^

TeaDidikai

2) Not everyone is willing. And this Moral-Manner's Superiority creates more rifts than it heals due to the mass population of individualists in the Pagan scene.

Not everyone has to adopt them- these sorts of systems are designed to make a person's encounter with other cultures more enjoyable and more educational for everyone concerned. But it's up to each person as to whether or not they feel that they are reasonable, and a person's experience will naturally give them feedback on whether each system is functional or not. If you can't stomach them, nobody's said that you have to use them. And if you'll read the thread- or the re-posting of the guidelines so far which I just made- the idea of using manners as a superiority complex has already been addressed in the guidelines.

All that we're asking for is your input on some situation- any situation- which would illustrate how the guidelines in their current form are harmful to any Pagan culture. So far, you haven't come up with one, even though I've asked several times.

TeaDidikai

In short- these manners, while lovely, create one more thing for people to fight over. People who would naturally follow them will follow them without having a list. People who wouldn't for whatever reason- now have one more strike against them.

I disagree- not everybody is born knowing perfect manners. In fact, no one is. Guidelines like these help us to learn what sorts of situations to watch out for, and remind us of things which we already knew but had either forgotten or just never formed clearly into a guideline for action. You are correct that those who will not pay attention to such things will not pay attention to them, but I hardly think that this is going to make much difference in how they are received by the rest of the community. If they are already considered to be rude and/or childish, then saying that they don't follow a certain system of guidelines is redundant and pales in comparison to the real issue- which is their current misbehavior. However, if one is following the guidelines as they are set out, then one will know that it's poor form to create a scene over someone else's not following these guidelines.

It is my opinion that it is an absurd idea to expect people to know something, without offering anyone a means of knowing it. In the case of interaction with other people, I do want to see folks behave in an educated and mature fashion- so not bothering to participate in a project like this would be pretty silly.^_^ I do not believe that this one thread is going to fix the problem all over the world, but it is a step in the right direction. I'd rather keep walking toward my goal than to rant and rail about not getting anywhere, as I believe that taking those steps- however small- is ultimately more effective than doing nothing.^_^' And I learn stuff on the way, as well.^_~

So in short, having systems like these worked out will not make any difference for the people who do not consider polite conduct to be something worth their time or attention. They may, however, help those who would like to know what sorts of things are important to other people but just haven't found a place to start. Furthermore, the act of composing them does something positive to advance the goal of congenial social interaction, rather than contributing to the negativity by simply gossiping or complaining about who did what to whom.  

[WebenBanu]

reagun ban

Starlock

Hmph. There's only one person here I see having serious problems with the idea of manners (coughs).

That is the worst apology ever.

To be fair, we need to know what we're apologizing for before we can do it properly. And we haven't received a great deal of cooperation in that respect- which, I'll admit, is getting frustrating.^_^'  

[TeaDidikai]

Starlock

Hmph. There's only one person here I see having serious problems with the idea of manners (coughs).

Thank you Starlock. That one line pretty much painted the perfect picture of what I am speaking of.

I attend Asatru Blots for the vast majority of the group rituals I take part in. NOT ONCE in my time with my Asatru Friends have I violated the Asatru guidelines of Honor, Hospitality, or any other Virtue that the RosViking hold dear. I follow these rules because I do have a code of ethnics and enough sense that says when I drink from another's well, I honor them.

But guess what? This isn't your hall Starlock. Your opinion in not sacred. If you didn't want anyone to comment on what you posted, you shouldn't have posted it here and asked for other people's opinions. I'm not sorry I didn't blow sunshine up your tail and pat you on the back and tell you how wise and wonderful your post- that I disagree with on an intellectual basis (you know, over a practical one?) is. And yet, here we see in the text I bolded, what happens when one supports this opinion at the cost of said "manners". Bravo. Mocking another because they disagree with you?

Of note- I find it amusing that you assert there is one person who has a serious problem with manners. To be honest- I don't see any of their posts. Could you point them out to me?

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There will always be people who make excuses (justified or otherwise) as to why THEY are above basic manners or exceptions to the rules.

Way to be courteous and compassionate to those with serious learning conditions and emotional issues. Sever Aspbergers can be a real b***h you know? As can cultural differences.

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Debating over that point has little value.

Yes. Thinking critically is a BAD THING. rolleyes

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It's as well an opinion that such guidelines create more problems than they solve.

Were it that the individuals who proffered such as guidelines only respected those who disagreed with said guidelines as much as they demanded that people follow said rules- there wouldn't be an issue, now would there?

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Just ask yourself how we'd do in the world if there were no laws.

Law !=Manners.  

[TeaDidikai]

WebenBanu

TeaDidikai

1) Not everyone is able to play by the rules it takes to work the system you have set out.

How so, Tea? Can you think of an example? I honestly want to know.^_^

Mostly dramatic learning disabilities and cultural differences. I have a very dear, very spiritual friend who has some serious troubles with Aspbergers (sp?) that comes to mind.

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Not everyone has to adopt them- these sorts of systems are designed to make a person's encounter with other cultures more enjoyable and more educational for everyone concerned.

I disagree. What I am seeing is a set of "in club" rules that are designed to make those who dislike confrontation have an easy out under the guise of "it's the rules!".

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But it's up to each person as to whether or not they feel that they are reasonable, and a person's experience will naturally give them feedback on whether each system is functional or not. If you can't stomach them, nobody's said that you have to use them.

Which, within perfect context, would be correct. But what do you think is the reality of an individual rejecting the rules of the Rule Keepers in terms of their place in the scene. If you like, we can trade more Occult Shop battle tales on the subject. I have a half dozen or so at the tip of my tongue on this very subject.

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And if you'll read the thread- or the re-posting of the guidelines so far which I just made- the idea of using manners as a superiority complex has already been addressed in the guidelines.

Intellectually- yes. Pragmatically? No. Double Standards abound.

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All that we're asking for is your input on some situation- any situation- which would illustrate how the guidelines in their current form are harmful to any Pagan culture. So far, you haven't come up with one, even though I've asked several times.

(Pst... Weben, I'm ill. I'm taking it easy on Gaia. ~isn't supposed to be on at all, least the Hubby catch me out of bed~)

I think at this point, the conflict between Starlock and I can be seen as a perfect example. If you'll note- several times I have pointed out that these are nice/good/pleasent rules. And yet, some people resort to mocking because of an intellectual disagreement. Of which, I would point out, I am merely speaking on behalf of Ol' Nick.

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I disagree- not everybody is born knowing perfect manners. In fact, no one is. Guidelines like these help us to learn what sorts of situations to watch out for, and remind us of things which we already knew but had either forgotten or just never formed clearly into a guideline for action. You are correct that those who will not pay attention to such things will not pay attention to them, but I hardly think that this is going to make much difference in how they are received by the rest of the community. If they are already considered to be rude and/or childish, then saying that they don't follow a certain system of guidelines is redundant and pales in comparison to the real issue- which is their current misbehavior. However, if one is following the guidelines as they are set out, then one will know that it's poor form to create a scene over someone else's not following these guidelines.

And from my experience, it doesn't. The owner of the shop I worked at was considered a boon to the Pagan scene until people proffering such a list of acceptable behavior invoked his god at a ritual he was asked to Godi and then offered a huge insult to him as part of the ritual. When the ritual was haulted in order for the Godi to ammend the error- they black listed him. He was their guest of honor- they asked him to Godi. Then when they were corrected within his ritual, he was blacklisted.
Edit: Thor != Suna, damnit!
And it was all done in the name of said rules. This is what I mean between the intellectual and pragmatic differences between a code of conduct such as this, and the reality of holding it universal.

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It is my opinion that it is an absurd idea to expect people to know something, without offering anyone a means of knowing it. In the case of interaction with other people, I do want to see folks behave in an educated and mature fashion- so not bothering to participate in a project like this would be pretty silly.^_^ I do not believe that this one thread is going to fix the problem all over the world, but it is a step in the right direction. I'd rather keep walking toward my goal than to rant and rail about not getting anywhere, as I believe that taking those steps- however small- is ultimately more effective than doing nothing.^_^' And I learn stuff on the way, as well.^_~

And what I am suggesting is an artifical list of do's and don'ts does little- where as a furthered discussion on how to be good to each other- the realm of philosophy, would better the pagan scene far more.  

[WebenBanu]

OK, now for some more work on the guidelines. Reading through number 10, I think that I understand what it's getting at but the wording lends itself to misunderstanding.

Number 10

10) Do not allow yourself to get the idea that you know the One True, Right and Only Path! If you don't like it, don't do it... it is not acceptable to say someone 'shouldn't be doing things a certain way (exception being if it is against the law).

I'm not even sure if this one is entirely necessary- I think that most of what it's trying to say is expressed through other guidelines (notably #4, 11a, 11b, 12b, and 12c- but probably others as well, to a lesser degree^_^). Furthermore it is entirely possible to believe that one has the One True, Right, and Only Path and still be polite to other people. I had a friend back in my hometown for whom I had a great deal of respect- she was a Christian who was so hardcore that she wouldn't even attend church, because she felt that the institution of Christianity had become too commercialized and had strayed from its original form. And yet she was on very friendly terms with a Hellenic recon friend of mine, and myself. We both knew that she believed we were religiously misled and doomed to damnation, and she knew that we felt that she was gravely mistaken, and we were all cool with that. Even when we discussed matters of religion we were all very polite and enjoyed exploring matters of theological scholarship together- very comfortably and amiably, and with much tea and cookies.^_^ So clearly, believing that you have the One True Way is not an obstacle to polite behavior.

Furthermore, it's entirely possible to say that someone "shouldn't be doing" something and not be rude- even if it's not illegal. For instance, one should not offer pork to Ast, and one should not enter a Kemetic ritual space without purifying first. This is pretty basic, and there is nothing wrong with politely letting someone know this (in fact, it can be a courtesy when it's done right). However, it may be perfectly fine to offer pork to a different deity, and there may also be traditions out there which do not require purification before entering sacred space- or which even view the entering of sacred space as a purifying act in itself!

I think what you meant to say was to not assume that just because something is done a certain way in your religious tradition that it must be that way in every other religious tradition. Nobody should tell a Kemetic that they shouldn't be performing their worship ceremony without casting a circle, for example, because the mechanics of Kemetic ritual handle this requirement differently.

So perhaps what we want here is something more like this:

Number 10 Proposed Rewrite

10) Never assume that every other religion must agree with what your religious training has taught (e.g. the casting of circles, the form or use of purification techniques, conceptions of deity, etc.). Religious forms are varied- while certain practices within certain religious traditions may be verified through theological research, there are many religions and most of them will not agree on the application or necessity of any given ritual or theological element.

Thoughts? Comments?^_^  

[Operation Shoestring]

WebenBanu

Number 10

10) Do not allow yourself to get the idea that you know the One True, Right and Only Path! If you don't like it, don't do it... it is not acceptable to say someone 'shouldn't be doing things a certain way (exception being if it is against the law).

I'm not even sure if this one is entirely necessary- I think that most of what it's trying to say is expressed through other guidelines (notably #4, 11a, 11b, 12b, and 12c- but probably others as well, to a lesser degree^_^). Furthermore it is entirely possible to believe that one has the One True, Right, and Only Path and still be polite to other people. I had a friend back in my hometown for whom I had a great deal of respect- she was a Christian who was so hardcore that she wouldn't even attend church, because she felt that the institution of Christianity had become too commercialized and had strayed from its original form. And yet she was on very friendly terms with a Hellenic recon friend of mine, and myself. We both knew that she believed we were religiously misled and doomed to damnation, and she knew that we felt that she was gravely mistaken, and we were all cool with that. Even when we discussed matters of religion we were all very polite and enjoyed exploring matters of theological scholarship together- very comfortably and amiably, and with much tea and cookies.^_^ So clearly, believing that you have the One True Way is not an obstacle to polite behavior.

Thank you. May I keep this for future reference? I've had lost of trouble trying to bash this concept into think skulls before.  

[WebenBanu]

I'm so sorry to hear that you're not feeling well! Go back to bed and get some rest!^_~ I'll wait for your response until you're feeling better.

I will go ahead and post my response now, because otherwise I may not have time later, but please do not feel pressured to respond while you are ill! I want you in top mental form to continue our discussion.^_~

TeaDidikai

Mostly dramatic learning disabilities and cultural differences. I have a very dear, very spiritual friend who has some serious troubles with Aspbergers (sp?) that comes to mind.

I have found that people with learning disabilities or true mental disorders tend to be held to a different standard from other folks- it's one of those generally accepted but unwritten rules. But perhaps you could suggest the sort of allowance which you were looking for? Did you feel that the concepts were too demanding for folks with learning disabilities to follow? Or are you afraid that other people will hold their disability against them? For the latter, sadly, this would not be the first time- but as for our guidelines it's already been covered in the concept of not using manners as weapons against people in general. For the former, those who are severely mentally disabled tend to have caretakers who are responsible for them. In this case, it falls to the caretaker to keep their charge from doing anything harmful or inappropriate, and the responsibility ultimately falls to them if the situation gets out of hand.

For cultural differences, I'll wait for your examples.

TeaDidikai

I disagree. What I am seeing is a set of "in club" rules that are designed to make those who dislike confrontation have an easy out under the guise of "it's the rules!".

Then you misunderstand, for they are not designed to do that and they do in themselves specify that it is against "the rules" to say that it something must be done according to "the rules." It's not as if those who complain when other people are rude to them wouldn't have complained if only they hadn't seen this thread.^_^' The main reason for these sorts of guides is because acting out the kind of behavior that they proscribe tends to lead to an antagonistic response from the people around you. It's like posting a warning for people to not put their hands on a hot stove. If they think that's unreasonable then they'll do it anyway, but the stove doesn't burn them out of spite because they didn't listen to you- that's just what happens, which is why you posted the warning in the first place. We're simply writing up a list of red flags to warn people out of unfortunate social situations.

TeaDidikai

Which, within perfect context, would be correct. But what do you think is the reality of an individual rejecting the rules of the Rule Keepers in terms of their place in the scene. If you like, we can trade more Occult Shop battle tales on the subject. I have a half dozen or so at the tip of my tongue on this very subject.

Rule Keepers? Can you define this office and the scope of its jurisdiction? And while we're at it, what exactly is a "scene," anyway- it seems to be the same as a community? I don't want to assume that I know what you mean and waste a lot of time responding to a false interpretation.

WebenBanu

Using manners against people is proscribed by these guidelines, blah blah blah (sorry- I erased it, then realized that the reference might be important^_^')

TeaDidikai

Intellectually- yes. Pragmatically? No. Double Standards abound.

That kind of thing will exist with or without a guide like this. This set of guidelines actually weakens the case for that sort of situation, precisely because it includes a proscription against the use of manners as weaponry.

However, again, our goal is to write these guidelines as a general guide to avoid hot spots for trouble in common Pagan interactions- and making them accepting of cultural differences is the primary concern. Which means that if someone is doing something which contradicts any of these guidelines, then they're probably going to get an unfavorable response from the rest of the people concerned, anyway.^_^' Certainly in the case of the people you cited (those who will indignantly correct other people's behavior), they would not have gotten out of the situation without taking an earful along with them- with or without this guide, or any such guide which has ever been written.^_~

We are not creating offensive actions, nor are we creating offended reactions- we're writing about those which are already in existence (and fairly common, for the most part). By definition, therefore, writing up these guidelines does not create a situation where a person would get in trouble for something which nobody would have minded before- however it does give that person a chance to recognize the situation they were headed into before they went there.

TeaDidikai

(Pst... Weben, I'm ill. I'm taking it easy on Gaia. ~isn't supposed to be on at all, least the Hubby catch me out of bed~)

*hugs* Sorry to hear it. sad

TeaDidikai

I think at this point, the conflict between Starlock and I can be seen as a perfect example. If you'll note- several times I have pointed out that these are nice/good/pleasent rules. And yet, some people resort to mocking because of an intellectual disagreement. Of which, I would point out, I am merely speaking on behalf of Ol' Nick.

Starlock's getting frustrated because you've been saying that our guidelines are bad/oppressive and yet you haven't really told us how, nor have you proposed any sort of correction which would help us to address your concerns. Reagun's side comment about us not apologizing, when we haven't even been made aware that an apology was necessary or why it should be, didn't help matters very much either.^_^' I've been getting a little frustrated, myself- to tell the truth. It is a natural reaction which should be cleared up once we start making some progress rather than spinning our wheels in the rut which we seem to have dug out here.

It would be helpful, also, to bear in mind that we are all human- aspiring to proper behavior but not always reaching it every time.^_^ None of us are claiming to be paragons of virtue or perfection here.

Guidelines such as the ones we are writing are like the wire supports on which vines are grown- they provide a structure and a direction for personal growth, and we use them to train ourselves into an optimal and desired form. From time to time, we may grow away from them- we tend to recognize this through the reactions that we receive to our own words or actions. When we recognize that we did not make the best decision for the situation, it is an opportunity to weave that stray tendril back into the framework and try to do better the next time. I'm not saying that anyone has strayed out of form right now, mind, but that is how ethical systems develop.

As such, sets of guidelines are not magic wands which will immediately transform us into what we want to be, or fix every situation so that there is never any conflict- ethical systems in general are far too complex for any quick fix. These things take time and effort- hence my last addition, that times of adversity are the true test of any system of personal ethics.

What I'm asking is where do you see a flaw in the form of these guidelines. Do you believe that the principles we've outlined are worthy of striving for? Do you think that any of them would bring more harm than good? If so, which ones, and why? Do you think that any should be added?

I've no illusions about instant transformations to perfection on the part of the people who are reading this thread, Tea, which is why your example isn't demonstrating anything to me about the idea of ethical systems being flawed in and of itself.^_~ I just want to know how this one, specifically, is shaping up.^_^

TeaDidikai

And from my experience, it doesn't. The owner of the shop I worked at was considered a boon to the Pagan scene until people proffering such a list of acceptable behavior invoked his god at a ritual he was asked to Godi and then offered a huge insult to him as part of the ritual. When the ritual was haulted in order for the Godi to ammend the error- they black listed him. He was their guest of honor- they asked him to Godi. Then when they were corrected within his ritual, he was blacklisted.
Edit: Thor != Suna, damnit!
And it was all done in the name of said rules. This is what I mean between the intellectual and pragmatic differences between a code of conduct such as this, and the reality of holding it universal.

Wow, what a mess! This situation demonstrates admirably the importance of asking what will be done in a ritual before attending (guideline #2)! Or in this case, overseeing. Without knowing the specifics of the insult, it certainly seems to me that what that group did to your store's owner was very bad form. Depending on what the insult was, it may have involved other principles covered in our guidelines as well- such as 11b for learning about that deity's taboos or traditions (I'm assuming that's the form which the insult took). If not, then we may need to add something else to cover it.

TeaDidikai

And what I am suggesting is an artifical list of do's and don'ts does little- where as a furthered discussion on how to be good to each other- the realm of philosophy, would better the pagan scene far more.

The list is quite organic, developed from people's personal experiences and continuing to grow as we go along. We are challenging each guideline and adding new ones as we discover the need. The thread itself is also providing fertile ground for philosophy on the nature of Pagan ethical systems, and does request input along those lines, which is basically what you and I have been doing. As we work on this set of guidelines, we will discover many ways of how to be good to each other- and hopefully work them into a system for our own use, should we chose to do so. I expect that participation in this thread will be an advantage to the entire guild, even if just by lurking and reading everything which is written here.^_^

That's why I love subjects like this- there is so much potential here! I just wish that we could get more into the ethics themselves, rather than debating the propriety of having ethical systems in the first place! But that is a part of it also, and there will be time for more after you've gotten better.^_^  

[WebenBanu]

AyanamiRei

Thank you. May I keep this for future reference? I've had lost of trouble trying to bash this concept into think skulls before.

You're very welcome.^_^ I'd prefer that it not be used to bash people's skulls (it gets all bloody and bent out of shape that way- eww... >_<), but you're welcome to use it if you think that it might prove helpful in a polite discussion of the subject.  

[cambrylyd]

That list simply sounds like common sense and courtesy, Pagan or not.  

[Starlock]

Well, my last post was made in extreme haste (and very poorly written, sorry for that; forget it was ever even posted), so I could restate some aspects of that with a little more detail than I had time for yesterday. I'm not sure much would be gained from that though now. It appears a point has been reached where agreeing to disagree might serve well. That and WB has said pretty much everything I would have said in response anyway. whee

As for the frustration, WB somewhat got my motives right. It's a bit more that I'm having trouble comprehending (not understanding, comprehending... I can attempt to clarify if asked) what about manners is so difficult in the first place when they seem to me to be societal 'givens.' It's also a given to me, as WB said somewhere, that they're guidelines and its not expected you follow it perfectly. There are other aspects which were bothering me, but public forum is certainly no place to bring them up. ninja  

[WebenBanu]

cambrylyd

That list simply sounds like common sense and courtesy, Pagan or not.

When you look at it now it does seem that way- but then again, when you're in the actual situation, sometimes it just doesn't occur to folks to do something a certain way just because they'd never really thought about it and they may be under stress at the time. Then they may act rashly and come to regret it later- it happens to me, at any rate. When people don't have an actual plan of action they'll just try to wing it, and sometimes they can forget the niceties- which usually tends to complicate the situation even further. And sometimes it can just be really easy to fall into bad habits, and that's when guides like these can provoke us to consider our practices without placing us in a public confrontation where we'll feel like we have to resist to save face. That's why these sorts of guidelines are helpful- they're good to review every now and then to remind ourselves of this way of thinking, and we learn so much while we're writing them!^_^ I try to review lists of etiquette whenever I find them, because I really need the reminders.^_^'

Also, some of these things are only obvious is one is very familiar with certain elements of Pagan religious cultures- which one won't necessarily be, since they're not all the same. If, for instance, someone wasn't used to working within a cast circle then they might not think twice about walking out of a ritual if they suddenly have to leave. Not everybody uses circles, after all- so it's a reasonable thing to warn a visitor who is looking for guidelines to watch out for them.^_^

I'd love to see these sorts of guidelines for each of the Pagan religions- AsatruaR, Druidic, various recons, and all the many, many other forms of Pagan religion... I personally find etiquette to be a fascinating subject because it really gives you a glimpse into the cultural mindset and traditional mechanics of a given group. But right now we're working on a very general set of guidelines for the Pagan community as a whole- we can expect to see some things which are common to many Pagan groups, but probably not a whole lot of trad-specific trivia.

Unless someone just wants to thrill me with some random information.^_~  

[Lotus Poem]

I have attended many group events and rituals both public and private and I can't say that I've ever felt the need for guidelines of this kind....generally everyone behaves well and asks questions where needed and everything goes smoothly. I'm sure that is not always the case and I have just been lucky in that respect. When I host such events or gatherings I try to make a point of talking to any newcomers and making sure they know exactly what's going on and what is expected and such. I'm not very good with rules and if I attended a gathering that handed something like this out or posted it I would probably get a mite offended. I try to be mature and understanding to those around me, when I'm in a group situation I ask questions if I don't understand something, I research before hand and discuss with the hosts what is expected and what is unwelcome, I do my best to make the experience a positive one for all involved and I expect the same of others. At least in my personal experience those who don't follow those guidelines already aren't anymore likely too if they are posted somewhere and not to mention they are also the type to throw those same rules in your face when you correct them for such disrespectful behaviour. If rules of this nature are displayed at a gathering I would wonder why they felt the need.  

[TeaDidikai]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[WebenBanu]

Beauhemia

I have attended many group events and rituals both public and private and I can't say that I've ever felt the need for guidelines of this kind....generally everyone behaves well and asks questions where needed and everything goes smoothly.

Every major gathering that I've attended already has its own list of do's and don'ts, so this list isn't being developed to officially replace any of them.^_^ It's something we're working on both as a platform for discussion on Pagan manners, ethics, etc., or for use as a personal code of conduct if anyone feels that it's turned out that well- and if someone wants to post it on the 'net when we're completely done with it, then I think that would be a really good idea as well. Many people (myself included) love to read these sorts of things and find them very useful.

I agree, though, that all the events that I've attended have largely gone off well.^_^ This happens largely because the staff makes it clear what sort of behavior is expected- and in the case of my favorite gathering, has a kilt-clad security team to enforce it.^_^ I've never seen them actually have to do anything other than give folks directions to where various seminars are being held, but when you've got hundreds of people coming together- especially folks with as vastly different approaches to life as many Pagans have- it's important to make sure that everyone is safe, and knows what is expected of them.

Beauhemia

I'm not very good with rules and if I attended a gathering that handed something like this out or posted it I would probably get a mite offended.

Why is that, I wonder? Do you object to codes of behavior themselves? Or is there something in one of the guidelines with which you disagree?

Beauhemia

At least in my personal experience those who don't follow those guidelines already aren't anymore likely too if they are posted somewhere and not to mention they are also the type to throw those same rules in your face when you correct them for such disrespectful behaviour.

Please see my original responses to these comments:

WebenBanu

I disagree- not everybody is born knowing perfect manners. In fact, no one is. Guidelines like these help us to learn what sorts of situations to watch out for, and remind us of things which we already knew but had either forgotten or just never formed clearly into a guideline for action. You are correct that those who will not pay attention to such things will not pay attention to them, but I hardly think that this is going to make much difference in how they are received by the rest of the community. If they are already considered to be rude and/or childish, then saying that they don't follow a certain system of guidelines is redundant and pales in comparison to the real issue- which is their current misbehavior. However, if one is following the guidelines as they are set out, then one will know that it's poor form to create a scene over someone else's not following these guidelines.

It is my opinion that it is an absurd idea to expect people to know something, without offering anyone a means of knowing it. In the case of interaction with other people, I do want to see folks behave in an educated and mature fashion- so not bothering to participate in a project like this would be pretty silly.^_^ I do not believe that this one thread is going to fix the problem all over the world, but it is a step in the right direction. I'd rather keep walking toward my goal than to rant and rail about not getting anywhere, as I believe that taking those steps- however small- is ultimately more effective than doing nothing.^_^' And I learn stuff on the way, as well.^_~

So in short, having systems like these worked out will not make any difference for the people who do not consider polite conduct to be something worth their time or attention. They may, however, help those who would like to know what sorts of things are important to other people but just haven't found a place to start. Furthermore, the act of composing them does something positive to advance the goal of congenial social interaction, rather than contributing to the negativity by simply gossiping or complaining about who did what to whom.

And regarding moral double standards, and/or people throwing the concept of manners in other people's faces, here:

WebenBanu

That kind of thing will exist with or without a guide like this. This set of guidelines actually weakens the case for that sort of situation, precisely because it includes a proscription against the use of manners as weaponry.

However, again, our goal is to write these guidelines as a general guide to avoid hot spots for trouble in common Pagan interactions- and making them accepting of cultural differences is the primary concern. Which means that if someone is doing something which contradicts any of these guidelines, then they're probably going to get an unfavorable response from the rest of the people concerned, anyway.^_^' Certainly in the case of the people you cited (those who will indignantly correct other people's behavior), they would not have gotten out of the situation without taking an earful along with them- with or without this guide, or any such guide which has ever been written.^_~

We are not creating offensive actions, nor are we creating offended reactions- we're writing about those which are already in existence (and fairly common, for the most part). By definition, therefore, writing up these guidelines does not create a situation where a person would get in trouble for something which nobody would have minded before- however it does give that person a chance to recognize the situation they were headed into before they went there.

Beauhemia

If rules of this nature are displayed at a gathering I would wonder why they felt the need.

To let folks know what is expected of them. Any public gathering will need some system to maintain general peace and order- the larger the gathering is, the more necessary this system will be. It's dangerous and irresponsible to gather a bunch of passionate people in one place- especially when they're centered on such a potentially volatile subject as religion or culture- and then adopt an "anything goes" policy toward behavior. If an argument starts up, you will need a group of people with the authority to quell it- and if necessary, escort any confirmed troublemakers off the premesis. If you're going to be kicking people out of the gathering for improper behavior, you'd better have told them what proper behavior was from the start- otherwise it's just not fair, not to mention self-defeating, and destined for further drama when the person being told to leave claims that they are the victim as they were simply "expressing themselves" and hadn't been told that what they were doing was not acceptable in this setting.

So any well organized gathering will have a list of do's or don'ts which is clearly available to all potential attendees. But this list hasn't been created with that purpose in mind- it's a lot more general.  

[Starlock]

Okay... now I'm getting quite curious.

What the heck is the difference between a 'scene' and a 'community'? If that's the basis for your argument, it needs to be addressed.

On the one side, I can see the point Tea has. No community is entirely homogenized, nor is it expected to. I think we all know there will always be those who don't follow what's been set out, but that's no reason to just STOP setting out some guidelines. No, we don't have to agree, no we don't have to get along and such things are always problems, but I do not find that a sufficient reason for not trying.

If I did, I'd be an anarchist. And I'm begining to wonder if you're an anarchist Tea, but let me know if I'm wrong in that. wink The reason why I say it reminds me of anarchy, is that say you apply this scenario to America as a whole. America as a whole is a crapload more diverse than just the Neopagan community, and we have manners, cutural expectations, rules and laws. No, we don't always have to agree and no we don't always get along as Americans, but those guidelines and laws surely DO serve an important function: stabalizing the entire nation so we can actually have a civilization.

Taking that a bit futher, any Neopagan who is an American, being part of the larger group of "Americans" likely already follows their cultural customs, laws, and manners (presuming they aren't in jail or otherwise). I think pretty much everything in the manners list is something already present in the much broader category of American manners. Therefore the fact that this list is specifically addressed to Neopagans doesn't mean a whole lot; everything in it is derived from basic American (perhaps Western in general) expectations. So in other words, it touches every American whether their Neopagan, Christian, Atheist, or whatever.