Something I was wondering About

[AccentualWolf]

I have been wondering if you have to be intiated in order to be a wiccian. I am a solitary wiccian and I have to way to iniate myself. I can not find a place to do it and I was wondering if you had any suggestions. I would really appreciate it.  

[MST3Kakalina]

i'm going to a hardass and say that you can't self initiate, though self dedication is fine.

but i'm a hardass.  

[CuAnnan]

MST3Kakalina

i'm going to a hardass and say that you can't self initiate, though self dedication is fine.

but i'm a hardass.

Agreed.  

[MST3Kakalina]

and to be more helpful:

initiation requires that you are brought into something new to you by someone who's already experienced; that information you didn't know is revealed to you. how can you reveal information you yourself don't know?

dedication, though, is simply saying "i'm choosing to walk this path and i shall do my best to maintain it." you don't "have" to do it, either. if you feel like it would be more official to have a self-dedication ceremony of some sort, then by all means go ahead. do whatever feels comfortable to you.

i would also say you have to be initiated into a lineaged coven to be Wiccan; if i were you, i would be more likely to call myself a Wicca Dedicant or something, just to make the distinction. again, i'm a hardass.

sorry that you can't seem to find a group nearby. have you checked out witchvox and the like? sometimes it's just a matter of knowing where to look.  

[TeaDidikai]

Because I think it would be helpful:

Reagun Ban

I think, in order to best discuss wether or not you're entitled to call yourself Wiccan, we need to comment on what the legitimacy of the Coven is and therefore the legitimacy of you as a Wiccan. If a Coven has lineage, it is legitimate. Lineage is a direct line back to Gardner's coven. Many argue this is irrelevant. They are wrong. This is not an opinion. It is a statement of simple fact. Once a lineaged Coven initiates you, you can call yourself Wiccan because you are Wiccan. You have been brought into Wicca by the sacred rite of initiation.

Gardner did not release all of his religion in written format. He was paranoid. He believed the eebil xians were out to get him, I believe he was a paranoid man with a need to feel self important and the secrets gave him that. Regardless, these secrets have not been revealed and are not available to outsiders. Admittedly, all you have is my word and the word of pretty much all lineaged covens. So, again, we come to legitimacy. Those who are initiated, and claim to be privvy to some secrets, say those who aren't initiated aren't privvy to these secrets.

It has been raised that all we have is the word of Initiates that there are secrets. I am no longer Wiccan. There are secrets. I was initiated. There are secrets. I left the path. There are secrets. If there were no secrets, then I was lied to before my initiation. Why would I, as a non-wiccan, help to uphold a lie I was told when lying is inherently bad?

Those who can trace a direct line of teaching to the religion's creator claim that those who cannot are missing vital information, the information which actually makes you a Wiccan. Do they lord it over the outer court practitioners, never in my experience or the experience of any I've ever met. These secrets don't make you a better person, they grant you a true understanding of what it means to be Wicca. They are, in essence, a large part of the Religion itself.

"But you're lording it over us now" you say. Doesn't matter because a) I'm not Wiccan and b) I'm just telling you that they exist not lording them over you. I'm asking "but how can you call yourself Wiccans when you don't know what Wicca is" not saying "ha, you're lesser beings. I am so much better than you because I know the secrets. You shall never know them mortals ha ha ha ha"

"But I believe in the Lord and Lady" you may say. "So ******** what", I say. Have you been to a lineaged coven meeting? If the answer is no, then how do you know the Lord and Lady you follow are the same as the Lord and Lady of Wicca. Because it's in a book? So are the Valar. Because it's in a book on Wicca? Any true author is limited in what they can tell you by the 161 Rules of Wicca and by the Initiatory Oaths. If they are claiming to reveal the secrets of Wicca then they are claiming to break an Oath. Bear that in mind when reading their material. I realise that just because they're Oathbreakers doesn't mean they're lying about the secrets of wicca, I'm just explaining the facts.

If you haven't been initiated by a lineaged coven, you don't know what Wicca is. You can argue against this til you're blue in the face but you may as well be arguing that squares are circles. Be a pagan, be an ecclectic, but neither of these will make you a Wiccan. There is no need to be a Wiccan. I'm not. Wicca was too constricting in some ways and not enough in others. It offered me none of the answers to the questions I was asking.

Stop reading into it that my telling you you're not wiccan is me telling you you're bad people, bad pagans, that you're faith is flawed or wrong. All I'm telling you is that without initiation, you can't possibly know what Wicca is.

Can you claim to be a Catholic Priest without being ordained? Can you claim to be a Hindu Brahman or a Buddhist monk without the neccessary training? Believing in the Torah does not make you a Rabbi. Why the ******** would believing in the Lord and Lady make you a Wiccan?

Of note, I disagree with Reagun, and I have Lineaged Wiccans who's opinions back me. However, until Reagun checks them out- he is the current authority within this Guild last I checked.  

[Doctrix]

Yes, I believe that one has to be Initiated by a lineaged Coven in order to be Wiccan. One cannot Initiate oneself. One can Dedicate oneself to Paganism, which is just as valid a path!  

[Deoridhe]

My best suggestion to find a coven is to become a part of pagan and Wiccan organizations. I found my Asatru kindred through a listserv and they've really had a powerful and positive impact on my life. I'm sure there are Wiccan discussion boards and listservs out there. A few tell signs for the seriousness of the group: do they acknowledge the history of Wicca and Gardner, are opinions backed in lore or stated as personal practice, and are they intellectually rigerous.

Watch and read for at least a week before commenting to get a feel for the style of the group, then ask a lot of questions. Find people you admire the thinking of, and then see if you can contact them privately or initiate a discussion on finding a reputable coven and protecting yourself while learning the mysteries, or something similar. Once you've made contacts in the Wiccan community, finding a coven will be a whole lot easier.  

[Starlock]

The majority of the Pagan community finds solitary practice in dedicatory (or self-initiation as you put it, AccentualWolf) form an acceptable extension of Wicca. With the emergence of Wicca into the mainstream in the form of publications, most no longer consider Wicca an initiatory-only religion. What's important, though, is that you understand the differences between a dedicatory practice and what you'd experience in a coven. Sometimes only one type will fit for you; go for what fits.  

[Lila Malvae]

The initiatory system established in Wicca (1st-3rd degrees) seems to stem from its founding fathers' experience with hermetic orders. A lot of the practicioners, originally, were disheartened hermetic Catholics or were just Freemasons. The initiatory system is very similar with these circles as well. Something like Initiate, Adept, Master is used, I believe.
Of course sources on these circles are shaky at best, but the initiatory system is an established fact, of that I am absolutely certain.

This is why I refuse to consider the Wiccan path, even though some mistake me for it. I have other reasons (like my dislike for hermetic practices). Mind you, this is not a distinction in High Magic (spiritual) or Low magic (material), but more of a Hard magic (set in stone, time-tested, not user distinctive) and Soft magic (flexible). It's like the difference between Psychiatry and Philosophy. Although this is a horrible example for the two organizations, it is accurate as far as the actual practices. Wicca, with its hermetic implications-- practices based upon the Quabbalah, true names, etc-- versus folk practices, shamanism, etc.
Does this make sense? I know you just asked about the initiory system, but I figured I'd give a clear picture of it so that you could decide for yourself whether the dedicatory or initiation system is for you.  

[Tsuzuki]

There are paths that allow for self-initiation, most notably the ones you devise yourself, but Wicca is not among them.  

[Lila Malvae]

Tsuzuki

There are paths that allow for self-initiation, most notably the ones you devise yourself, but Wicca is not among them.

Exactly. That is likely the largest misconception about Wicca, even by self-described Wiccans.  

[Something to Replace]

-is tired and has skipped most previous posts....sounds bad but...doesn't care-

This is going to sound odd but remember that I'm only compairing because I believe it's a good way to learn about another religion, espeically if you came from that religion being compared to....

I personally don't believe that you have to belong to a coven to be Wiccan because other religions are based on faith. Why should Wicca be any different? Wicca doesn't require money like some Protestant religions might and Wicca doesn't require prayer several times a day like Muslims do. (But I'm not saying it's easy, you see?)  

[LadyEladrin]

You might want to go back up and read that long post Tea made that's originally written by Reagun...Very informative, although I dont' neccessarily agree with it. Wicca is an initiatory religion. If you want to get down into the nitty gritty details of it and learn all of its' secrets, you have to be initiated. ninja Supposedly...  

[MST3Kakalina]

blood: the idea that you can't be wiccan by having a certain faith is that there is a mysteries nature to wicca; there are certain beliefs and secrets and such to the core doctrine of wicca that you can't know just by reading published books--although, there is buckland's stuff, though from what i understand what he writes about is still "outer court" and therefore an incomplete picture. i could be wrong. reading all of those things is still good and a good way to prepare if you seriously want to get into wicca, don't get me wrong. they're just...not complete.

this is as opposed to, say christianity, where all of the CRUCIAL, IMPORTANT tenets of the faith are right out in the open for anyone to see, ie the bible, especially the new testament. you can know all you need to know about the faith without ever stepping inside a church or talking to a pastor.

to draw the comparison even further, the secrets of wicca are (according to what i've heard other initiated wiccans say) fairly core to the belief system, it's not just a secret for the sake of having a secret. it would be like if all the bibles you found had the bits with jesus in them edited out, except in the editions in church pews. and you can't just walk into the church, either. you wouldn't be a "real" christian if you drew your faith purely from the public bibles you found.

does that make sense?


again, bear in mind that this is what i've gleaned from hearing other intiated wiccans discuss this same topic. they could be wrong, i could be misremembering, etc, all those sorts of disclaimers.