Religion and scholarship

[rmcdra]

My friend Sparky, moderator of the Palm Tree Garden, made a remark recently that kind of stuck me as like a wake up call. There are many within the Gnostic community who will say that, "the history is unimportant, it's the myth or the experience that is important," yet when presented with a history that conflicts with a certain view or ideal taken by a Gnostic or Gnostic group, they grow defensive and accuse the scholar who presents this history of being against the group's ideal. To quote an example from the forum of what Sparky's experiences (SCMG is so called modern gnostic):

Quote:

SCMG: "Since the ancient gnostics had X, we should do X."

Scholar: "I agree with you that we should do X, but it isn't clear that the ancient gnostics did X."

SCMG: "Why do you hate X?"

Scholar: "I don't. I'm responding to your claim that the Gns did X..."

SCMG: "So you hate X. And you're a literalist and a fundamentalist because you think we should rigidly adhere to history."

Scholar: "No, I didn't say that at all. I said I would personally adhere to X, but the ancient gnostics didn't. It's ok if we're a little different..."

SCMG: "History is unimportant. The *story* is what matters. History is just fingers pointing at the moon. You sir, are unenlightened. Now where was I? Ah yes, since the ancient Gns did X, we should do X..."

What is your opinion on this subject within your own religion? How does this relate within your own religion?  

[Wrath of Ezekiel]

There are some factions within modern Hinduism that take the smritis as actual religious documents, when they are the opposite. It's sort of an opposite scenario here, because the most frequently used and quoted one, the Manusmriti, is just the "laws of the social classes". It's a lawbook influenced by Hindu ideals at a certain time period and context for laws at that time. And it has some pretty conservative ideals at time.

Basically, it doesn't appeal to the Hindu God(s) very well and it's really against anything that modern India and the world has become, like anything involving caste freedom and women's rights. It wasn't even considered part of the Vedic Age, when all the rest of the scriptures are written. However, many more conservative Hindus are rather supportive because it keeps the caste system in its rigidity.  

[TeaDidikai]

rmcdra

What is your opinion on this subject within your own religion? How does this relate within your own religion?

Doesn't happen. Part of being a fully integrated living tradition is that change is part of the path.  

[Bastemhet]

rmcdra

What is your opinion on this subject within your own religion? How does this relate within your own religion?

In a prior experience I've spoken with a member of the House of Netjer (Kemetic Orthodoxy) about our beliefs concerning offering to the dead, and they considered it "bad mojo." This person understood that their beliefs were not in line with historicity, but sometimes I find that people of that religious group may not always know the difference between historical practice and some revivalist practice that are done by that group. It might be expected since they are the most active and well-known group that practices ancient Egyptian religion or at least a form of it, but I find it a source of irritation when people make statements that are not historically accurate and just assume that it is because the idea is more mainstream. Familiarity does not always beget accuracy. I also find fault with that group's failure to consistently state what parts of their beliefs are historically accurate and which are revivalist.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

...I find it a source of irritation when people make statements that are not historically accurate and just assume that it is because the idea is more mainstream. Familiarity does not always beget accuracy. I also find fault with that group's failure to consistently state what parts of their beliefs are historically accurate and which are revivalist.

To this extent, I suppose I can relate, especially when it comes to people treating my ethnicity like a religion.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

...I find it a source of irritation when people make statements that are not historically accurate and just assume that it is because the idea is more mainstream. Familiarity does not always beget accuracy. I also find fault with that group's failure to consistently state what parts of their beliefs are historically accurate and which are revivalist.

To this extent, I suppose I can relate, especially when it comes to people treating my ethnicity like a religion.

I find it increasingly sensible to keep my mouth shut and plan to research later if I don't know something for sure. But I suppose the problem with KO is that their Nisut's word is basically gospel, so why would it be necessary to doubt or question?  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

rmcdra

What is your opinion on this subject within your own religion? How does this relate within your own religion?

Doesn't happen. Part of being a fully integrated living tradition is that change is part of the path.

I wonder, with a recon religion, how much change should one allow for if the religion was not revealed but compound? Hmm...  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

I wonder, with a recon religion, how much change should one allow for if the religion was not revealed but compound? Hmm...

It's an interesting question. Perhaps by looking at some of the schisms between Orthodox and Liberal Judaism we might get a feel for what would have happened if the traditions had continued.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

I wonder, with a recon religion, how much change should one allow for if the religion was not revealed but compound? Hmm...

It's an interesting question. Perhaps by looking at some of the schisms between Orthodox and Liberal Judaism we might get a feel for what would have happened if the traditions had continued.

That's interesting because I actually met with someone who was trying to reconstruct Egyptian religion with Judaism in mind. Unfortunately one of the things they did was assume there was a blood taboo during formal worship because there was one for Judaism. Both cultures existed at the same time but that doesn't mean you can transcribe one religion's tradition for another's simply due to the lack of scholarship. I'm still looking into it but I can by no means make a positive claim for lack of evidence. Nor do I know if that was the truth of it or that person was just pulling it out of his a**. Or "reconstructing," if you will. /siderant

Anyway, it's worth looking into, so thanks for that. 3nodding  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

Unfortunately one of the things they did was assume there was a blood taboo during formal worship because there was one for Judaism.

I could have sworn that there was an element of "blood taboo" in Kemetic Recon as well- stemming from the concept of unclean women and the like.

Maybe I'm misremembering.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

Unfortunately one of the things they did was assume there was a blood taboo during formal worship because there was one for Judaism.

I could have sworn that there was an element of "blood taboo" in Kemetic Recon as well- stemming from the concept of unclean women and the like.

Maybe I'm misremembering.

I think it depends. I'm pretty sure for KO there is. But I think it's either their argument or someone else's that it has something to do with energy leakage that's not appropriate during ritual. I have no idea if that's based in the religion itself or the inappropriate mixture of modern ideas about energy...or even ideas taken from other African religions. I think the Egyptian priests had some taboos that were related to diet and sexual conduct (from skimming "The Mind of Egypt" by Jan Assmann) but he didn't mention anything about a blood taboo. The menses may have been considered impure (I have no texts to support this, though some people cite Lesko who translated a work saying some workmen went home to their wives during their time of menstruation. Whether this comments on beliefs about blood purity or whether those women suffered from endomitriosis or other such maladies I don't know) but there are also various medicinal texts that cite it as a very powerful magical substance that is used in some cures. I will not guess as to how this might follow through in ritual worship because there are various beliefs in Egyptian religion that may be considered contradictory. This might be one of them. *shrug*

Part of the problem of recon is that most Egyptians were illiterate so most of what we have written was by or for the priests who were initiated into the religion. I have no intention of trying to be a modern priest. So perhaps I will continue ritual during menses, or not. Probably not for Sekhmet as she has a taste for human blood. I don't see that kind of problem with other deities I worship, however.  

[TeaDidikai]

Fair enough.  

[Ainwyn]

I meant to ask my Ancient Religions professor about the menstruation thing today, as we've been talking about women who did various work in temples (we just read Women and Religion in Ancient Egypt by Barbara Lesko) and, vaguely, the purifying rituals needed before priests could enter certain rooms. But I was insanely exhausted and totally forgot stressed I'll bring it up on Friday if I remember.  

[Bastemhet]

Ainwyn

I meant to ask my Ancient Religions professor about the menstruation thing today, as we've been talking about women who did various work in temples (we just read Women and Religion in Ancient Egypt by Barbara Lesko) and, vaguely, the purifying rituals needed before priests could enter certain rooms. But I was insanely exhausted and totally forgot stressed I'll bring it up on Friday if I remember.

Thanks. I also have my Egypt class tomorrow and I'll ask as well. I'm disappointed it doesn't say anything about it in the book you mentioned, it's on my shopping list. Still going to get it anyway.  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

I wonder, with a recon religion, how much change should one allow for if the religion was not revealed but compound? Hmm...

It's an interesting question. Perhaps by looking at some of the schisms between Orthodox and Liberal Judaism we might get a feel for what would have happened if the traditions had continued.

I personally find tracking Hinduism rather more useful in seeing how a polytheistic religion will change and fragment over time due to how it has more political clout, so discrimination against Hindus is less in play than with Jews.

Seeing how Japan integrated Shinto, Buddhism, and Christianity is also a really interesting example of how religion can change in response to a society that is tighter knit and smaller geographically.

Not that the divisions between Orthodox, Conservative, and Liberal Judaism can't give us information in meta-analysis, but I think you need to take into account the effects of over a thousand years of persecution there, too, which could drive a lot of the practices underground and into symbolism for the sake of safety.