Predestination

[CCubed]

I have to ask this. I've been milling it over for awhile and I can come to no logical explanation for this contradiction. First the facts.

A) We have the freedom to choose to do what we want
B) Yet God already knows what we will choose

So if we can do whatever we want, how does God already know which path we'll take? doesn't that mean that we don't actually do what we want but whatever we were destined to do at that point and place in time? And there are places in the bible where the future is predicted, God even tells Peter he will deny him 3 times and he does. So where is our choice? It seems like it was already meant to happen in that way and that time. Yet, i'm told that it's both. We choose but God knows what we'll choose, but that sounds like trying to disguise predestination behind pretty words. So basically, my question is, am I over analyzing or is there something here?  

[PhaseBurn]

Most "choices" aren't really as random as you believe...

If I offer you a bowl of vanilla ice cream, and a bowl of chocolate ice cream, and ask you to choose, what would you take? If you took vanilla, it's very likely because you like it more, or you were feeling in the mood for it at the time more so than the chocolate. One might even argue that you didn't make a choice, it was made for you by what your body was craving more at the time.

The only "true" random choice is one where you don't care about the outcome, and both paths are identical in terms of effort, or, where you mentally suppress any and all influences and choose for the sake of choosing.

To illustrate the first point, lets say that you're walking down your driveway, and, your dog left a "present" in the middle of it. Do you go around it to the right, or to the left? And even that choice isn't entirely true, it will depend on what foot you've put more weight on when you see it, what your stride is like, etc. All that pulls subconsciously at the moment you actually execute the maneuver around the pile. So what would be a 100% true choice then? Pick a number: 18573 or 18574. So long as it doesn't hold any meaning for you, that is a *real* choice, and totally random. Everything else, with enough information, can be predicted. So while you're "free to choose", you aren't so much because you're governed by your mind and the nuances you pick up as you're raised.

Some people argue that by not picking the logical choice, they're throwing a monkey wrench into the system. But that, too, since it's intentional deception on their part, can be measured. They're actively thinking about it prior to making the choice, which can also be predictable if given access to enough information.  

[SilentNinjaFox]

For one, you are treading into a theological matter that has been discussed and debated, literally, for centuries.

My personal take on the matter is that we choose our actions but since God is beyond time, He knows because He sees them as we do them. He sees us in the past, the present, and the future. Just because He knows what we will do doesn't mean that it is His hand that makes us to do it. (Yes, I am an Arminian). I do believe that God is active in our world through His mighty hand though, I believe, more often through those people who choose to follow Him.  

[CCubed]

I guess that makes sense.  

[Christophilos]

I was led to believe that we do not have free will, but that every action we make is pre-chosen by God. Not just known, but chosen, as our salvation was chosen for us by Him before we were born.  

[lordstar]

Christophilos

I was led to believe that we do not have free will, but that every action we make is pre-chosen by God. Not just known, but chosen, as our salvation was chosen for us by Him before we were born.

Are you sure "us" also includes you?  

[kitsunegami]

SilentNinjaFox

For one, you are treading into a theological matter that has been discussed and debated, literally, for centuries.

My personal take on the matter is that we choose our actions but since God is beyond time, He knows because He sees them as we do them. He sees us in the past, the present, and the future. Just because He knows what we will do doesn't mean that it is His hand that makes us to do it. (Yes, I am an Arminian). I do believe that God is active in our world through His mighty hand though, I believe, more often through those people who choose to follow Him.

That's my take as well.

I know that if I ask my wife if she wants money to spend on books she'll say "yes". Just because I know what her response will be doesn't mean I decided for her. I've never understood how people can say that just because God knows what we will do that we have no free will.

God exists outside of time so he already knows every decision we will make but that doesn't mean that he's making those decisions for us.  

[Christophilos]

lordstar

Are you sure "us" also includes you?

If you're asking whether I am sure I am saved, no, I'm not.  

[Ablazed]

Christophilos

lordstar

Are you sure "us" also includes you?

If you're asking whether I am sure I am saved, no, I'm not.

See, now that point of view confuses me. I don't understand how someone could believe that God has chosen which people to save and which people to condemn. That doesn't fit the character of God described in the NT at all, does it? The point is that we are ALL worthy of being condemned, but we ALL have the option to choose God because of what Christ did.

If God were to choose who would be saved and who wouldn't, then why did Christ have to die in the first place? He died to make salvation a universal option for us - for EVERYONE.  

[kitsunegami]

Ablazed

I don't understand how someone could believe that God has chosen which people to save and which people to condemn. That doesn't fit the character of God described in the NT at all, does it? The point is that we are ALL worthy of being condemned, but we ALL have the option to choose God because of what Christ did.

If God were to choose who would be saved and who wouldn't, then why did Christ have to die in the first place? He died to make salvation a universal option for us - for EVERYONE.

Well said.  

[Christophilos]

Ablazed

See, now that point of view confuses me. I don't understand how someone could believe that God has chosen which people to save and which people to condemn. That doesn't fit the character of God described in the NT at all, does it? The point is that we are ALL worthy of being condemned, but we ALL have the option to choose God because of what Christ did.

It is something I am, I think, coming to believe. I look on the scriptures which say that we are chosen by God (John 15:16), called by God (Romans 8:30), foreknown by God (Romans 8:29), and given the gift of faith which we are saved by (Eph 2:8 ). That is why I think that God chooses us, because that is what the Bible seems to say.  

[SilentNinjaFox]

Christophilos

It is something I am, I think, coming to believe. I look on the scriptures which say that we are chosen by God (John 15:16), called by God (Romans 8:30), foreknown by God (Romans 8:29), and given the gift of faith which we are saved by (Eph 2:8 ). That is why I think that God chooses us, because that is what the Bible seems to say.

Those verses tend to be the common argument for predestination, however, I personally do not think that they fit in with the rest of the scope of the Bible when taken as proof for predestination. I still believe these verse are valid, as with the rest of the Bible, but the rest of the Bible leads me to believe that we make our own choices and are therefore responsible for our own actions. I have no interpretation for those verses; there are many things in the Bible that are beyond our understanding. I do find absurd the idea that God pre-ordains everything, including our sins, then turns around and punishes us for our sins when He is the one who ordained them to begin with. Furthermore, I believe God is so incredibly holy that He can not bear to even look at our sins let alone actually plan for us to do them.

For reference, this argument is called Calvinism vs. Arminianism.

Just as Catholicism (no harm meant towards Catholics) points to a few selected verses to back up major dogma, predestination points to a few verses to back up major theological ideas. The Bible as a whole says otherwise.  

[CCubed]

SilentNinjaFox

Christophilos

It is something I am, I think, coming to believe. I look on the scriptures which say that we are chosen by God (John 15:16), called by God (Romans 8:30), foreknown by God (Romans 8:29), and given the gift of faith which we are saved by (Eph 2:8 ). That is why I think that God chooses us, because that is what the Bible seems to say.

Those verses tend to be the common argument for predestination, however, I personally do not think that they fit in with the rest of the scope of the Bible when taken as proof for predestination. I still believe these verse are valid, as with the rest of the Bible, but the rest of the Bible leads me to believe that we make our own choices and are therefore responsible for our own actions. I have no interpretation for those verses; there are many things in the Bible that are beyond our understanding. I do find absurd the idea that God pre-ordains everything, including our sins, then turns around and punishes us for our sins when He is the one who ordained them to begin with. Furthermore, I believe God is so incredibly holy that He can not bear to even look at our sins let alone actually plan for us to do them.

For reference, this argument is called Calvinism vs. Arminianism.

Just as Catholicism (no harm meant towards Catholics) points to a few selected verses to back up major dogma, predestination points to a few verses to back up major theological ideas. The Bible as a whole says otherwise.

Are you implying that Catholicism is only provable by a few select verses? If so, you'd be wrong. Most of our teachings have both NT and OT references and usually more then one. Eucharist? NT and OT. Redemption? NT and OT. One God and Three Persons? NT and OT again. So if your insinuation was that we are based on few verses, you'd be false. Otherwise, ignore this, and move on. razz  

[Spazzed_out_Basil]

CCubed

SilentNinjaFox

Christophilos

It is something I am, I think, coming to believe. I look on the scriptures which say that we are chosen by God (John 15:16), called by God (Romans 8:30), foreknown by God (Romans 8:29), and given the gift of faith which we are saved by (Eph 2:8 ). That is why I think that God chooses us, because that is what the Bible seems to say.

Those verses tend to be the common argument for predestination, however, I personally do not think that they fit in with the rest of the scope of the Bible when taken as proof for predestination. I still believe these verse are valid, as with the rest of the Bible, but the rest of the Bible leads me to believe that we make our own choices and are therefore responsible for our own actions. I have no interpretation for those verses; there are many things in the Bible that are beyond our understanding. I do find absurd the idea that God pre-ordains everything, including our sins, then turns around and punishes us for our sins when He is the one who ordained them to begin with. Furthermore, I believe God is so incredibly holy that He can not bear to even look at our sins let alone actually plan for us to do them.

For reference, this argument is called Calvinism vs. Arminianism.

Just as Catholicism (no harm meant towards Catholics) points to a few selected verses to back up major dogma, predestination points to a few verses to back up major theological ideas. The Bible as a whole says otherwise.

Are you implying that Catholicism is only provable by a few select verses? If so, you'd be wrong. Most of our teachings have both NT and OT references and usually more then one. Eucharist? NT and OT. Redemption? NT and OT. One God and Three Persons? NT and OT again. So if your insinuation was that we are based on few verses, you'd be false. Otherwise, ignore this, and move on. razz

Well I'm pretty hard core Catholic too, but no need to get your panties in a wad my friend. ANYWHO, back to the ORIGINAL discussion.

It's my belief, that God, in his infinite wisdom, knows what choices that we will make, because like SilentNinjaFox said God is beyond time, and He is omniscient. But that doesn't mean God MAKES us make our choices. Why would a just and caring God make us go to Hell? It makes no sense. God gives us free will to choose, but He is never forcing us to do anything. Look at what happened to Adam and Eve. Even before the dawn of time He knew they would mess up. He knew He would have to die for us, and why did He do all of this? To prove His love to us and hope one day our hearts would be overflowing with the same love he showed us. The whole idea can be summed up in one saying, "God is love." And because God is love He would never predestine ANYONE to go to Hell, or that would mean he could hate.