Oh dear.....

[missymisa]

*update*

....It's not happpening again, that I can assure you  

[Manual Calavera]

etchedspirit

(PG-13 notice)
ugh...My boyfriend wants to get under my shirt and touch me and what not......I am just so confused now...i just don't know anymore....is it wrong for him to do that? It doesn't really bug me....in fact.....the very few time when he has done it...it felt good. Should I let him or should I say "hands off" What's ok and what not? HOw am i supposed to know where to draw the line? gonk

DANGER! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!

I don't know if it's wrong or not, but it WILL LEAD TO HARDER AND HARDER THINGS, all of which feel good. STOP IT RIGHT THERE! DON'T!

Remember that even sex feels good on some level or people wouldn't do it.

I'm going to stick with the silver rule: Don't do anything you wouldn't be ok with EVERYONE knowing about. Trust me--stop it there.



I was the first one to do that to my last girlfriend (before I made a full commitment to the Lord) and before we broke up, she'd taken...me...in her mouth. Which is definitely wrong.

Stop it right there. Tell him it's not ok!  

[lordstar]

I'm sure you have already had this talk but just in case

Just be smart about whatever you do
That’s the key
You may want to start thinking about talking to your doctor (fyi your doctor will with your request lock your medical records so (I case be) even your parents/partner will not be able to see...hell they wont even know its there)

One of the fun classes I have ever taken was a intro physical therapy class out at the local junior college
First time I had ever been "forked" it’s trippy...yo

Confession: I am a very hands-on kind of person (TK/A is my learning style...most people are more V/A) and holistic medicine is highly interesting

(Danger...incoming flood if information)
And I'll stop there

So I would say you can find your answer in examining the why's and not the rights and wrongs  

[Manual Calavera]

lordstar

So I would say you can find your answer in examining the why's and not the rights and wrongs

I disagree with everything you said up there. You are dispensing bad, not to mention confusing, advice. Seriously. You can't be serious.

This is a Christian guild, not a "ok, let's do whatever we feel like as long as we can explain it away" guild. There is a well defined morality that pre-marital sex is not part of. Sexual contact is not part of this moral standard either. My ex always asked me "is what we're doing sexual?" if we did that, and to be true, it stumped me for a while.

My conclusion is "yes," so I advise etchedspirit to ask, or better--tell, her boyfriend to refrain from so called "second base." (Just to note, it's pleasurable for a man, too, and I haven't done that since I turned my life over to God, nor do I intend to.)

Paul

Do not think about how to satisfy the desires of the flesh.

Paul

Whatever is good--(as in right and in line with God's will, not feeling good)--...think about such things.

And if Paul isn't good enough:

Jesus

I tell you the truth, whoever among you even looks at a woman with lust in your eye, you have already committed adultery with her in your heart.

That should tell you how seriously we're supposed to take this issue.

Paul

Flee youthful lust.

Not just resist, both Paul and Jesus said to flee from lustful desires, and second base certainly qualifies.

I can attest to the chain reaction of escalation that gets pushed farther and farther back. It's best to n** it in the bud.



There is effort that must be taken on our part to live a Christ-like life. We can't just justify our actions with psychobabble and continue to live in sin. If we live in such a way, when we go to the final judgement, God will say "Away from me, I never knew you."

Word of the day: Accountability.



That was also taught by Jesus, btw.  

[EMINATOR]

If you can do this without feeling lust, then go for it. But that's basically impossible...

It never says in the bible exactly where to draw the line, but it does say that we should not lust, because lust = bad.

 

[IcarusDream]

Manual Calavera

This is a Christian guild, not a "ok, let's do whatever we feel like as long as we can explain it away" guild. There is a well defined morality that pre-marital sex is not part of.

Define it. If it is well-defined, this should be easy.

Paul

Do not think about how to satisfy the desires of the flesh.

I'm gonna assume this is Romans 13:14. Now, in that case, we have Paul practically rallying the Romans. He's like, "Hey, Christ is about to come back. Cut your drinking, leave your maidens, and get over here!" All the while telling the Romans to be willingly subordinate to their government.

Now, Paul was telling them this without exception. So no matter what your status, you may not make any provision for the desires of the flesh (if we are to take a literal interpretation). No sex with your wife. No kissing. Nothing. Ever. Nothing that is in "desires of the flesh."

Again, that's just a literal, smacked the last part of the verse down, interpretation.

Quote:

Jesus

I tell you the truth, whoever among you even looks at a woman with lust in your eye, you have already committed adultery with her in your heart.

That should tell you how seriously we're supposed to take this issue.

Adultery, by definition, can only be committed if one of the two persons involved is married, which I don't think is the case here.

Quote:

Paul

Flee youthful lust.

Not just resist,

ἐπιθυμία is the word you have rendered as lust. It does not necessarily have any sexual connotation whatsoever. Really, it just says "Escape juvenile desires."

Quote:

both Paul and Jesus said to flee from lustful desires

Where did Jesus say to "flee" them?

Quote:

and second base certainly qualifies.

Where does the Bible say that?

To Etchedspirit: Take in kind what I said there; I don't think that Manual is necessarily wrong, but I would like to think that what all Paul wrote about [y]our "freedom" as Christians means that you don't necessarily have to constrict yourself to having nothing of this physical world. God obviously created us the way he did for a reason. Pleasure is certainly a bonus to all the gifts we have, but that doesn't mean it's a horrible danger.

Since this has happened before, I would assume that you are at least somewhat committed to this boy, and he to you (if not, then I would think that you need to stop this), and therefore your explorations are not completely done in lust. If your actions be in the true exchange of a loving couple, then I think you're just fine with never stopping.  

[Pseudo-Onkelos]

IcarusDream

ἐπιθυμία is the word you have rendered as lust. It does not necessarily have any sexual connotation whatsoever. Really, it just says "Escape juvenile desires."

In some way, I can agree with this. According to Bible.org,

Bible.org 2 Tim. 2:22

Timothy is urged here to flee those lusts which have an especially strong pull during the earlier years of life -- "youthful" (neoterikas). Timothy was probably around 36-37 years of age, and a man was still considered "youthful" until age 40 (Irenaeus). Some of these lusts described by Paul elsewhere would include FORNICATION 1 Cor. 6:18; IDOLATRY I Cor. 10:14; and LOVE OF MONEY I Tim. 6:11. Each of these is coupled with the same urgent plea to "flee" from them. In view of the following verses (23-26) there may be another youthful lust" in mind also -- THE LUST TO HAVE THE FINAL SAY. Youth tends to see everything as black or white and thus finds it difficult to fellowship with others while there are unresolved differences of opinion. We must seek to cultivate a spirit of humility and meekness so that differences on non-essential issues do not fracture our unity and friendship. The man who has to have the final say is captive to the lust of logic and is controlled by a burning passion to continually prove his own intellectual superiority. The servant of God must not allow himself to be mastered by this "youthful lust" for it will only produce ruptured relationships and a false sense of spirituality. "Woe unto those who are wise in their own eyes and prudent in their own sight." Is. 5:21.

John Calvin says in his commentary,

Calvin's Commentaries, 2 Tim. 2:22

Flee youthful desires. This is an inference from what goes before; for, after mentioning useless questions, and having been led by this circumstance to censure Hymenaeus and Philetus, whose ambition and vain curiosity had led them away from the right faith, he again exhorts Timothy to keep at a distance from so dangerous a plague kind for this purpose he advises him to avoid "youthful desires."

By this term he does not mean either a propensity to uncleanness, or any of those licentious courses or sinful lusts in which young men frequently indulge, but any impetuous passions to which the excessive warmth of that age is prone. If some debate has arisen, young men more quickly grow warm, are more easily irritated, more frequently blunder through want of experience, and rush forward with greater confidence and rashness, than men of riper age. With good reason, therefore, does Paul advise Timothy, being a young man, to be strictly on his guard against the vices of youth, which otherwise might easily drive him to useless disputes.

 

[Manual Calavera]

You know, I'm just going to stop trying to help, here.

My girlfriend who there was a slow progression with and I were both christians committed to having sex, but if you let Satan have any kind of foothold, he'll take it and try to come farther.

This is not about me, it's not about you, it's not about her. We are at war. Spiritual warfare is real. There's a saying that I'm sure everyone here has heard, "Give ____ an inch and he/she/they/it will take a mile."



There IS a progression, satan IS going to try to get them to do more and think that THAT is also okay, and I am not going to take the standpoint of the masses and say, "Yes, that part is okay, because it's not THIS far."

I draw the line at Christ's perfect example. I don't judge her an unforgivable sinner for what she's done, merely warning her that it WILL lead to more over time. I have learned this from both the example of others and the unfortunate events of my own life.



That is simply the way the world pushes us to go. If I'm the only one fighting it, so be it, but I am not backing down. I am for God. I stand in my warnings to etchedspirit, offered in love as her adopted brother in Christ.

Jesus, bring the rain.  

[lordstar]

Manual Calavera

lordstar

So I would say you can find your answer in examining the why's and not the rights and wrongs

I disagree with everything you said up there. You are dispensing bad, not to mention confusing, advice. Seriously. You can't be serious.

This is a Christian guild, not a "ok, let's do whatever we feel like as long as we can explain it away" guild. There is a well defined morality that pre-marital sex is not part of. Sexual contact is not part of this moral standard either. My ex always asked me "is what we're doing sexual?" if we did that, and to be true, it stumped me for a while.

My conclusion is "yes," so I advise etchedspirit to ask, or better--tell, her boyfriend to refrain from so called "second base." (Just to note, it's pleasurable for a man, too, and I haven't done that since I turned my life over to God, nor do I intend to.)

Paul

Do not think about how to satisfy the desires of the flesh.

Paul

Whatever is good--(as in right and in line with God's will, not feeling good)--...think about such things.

And if Paul isn't good enough:

Jesus

I tell you the truth, whoever among you even looks at a woman with lust in your eye, you have already committed adultery with her in your heart.

That should tell you how seriously we're supposed to take this issue.

Paul

Flee youthful lust.

Not just resist, both Paul and Jesus said to flee from lustful desires, and second base certainly qualifies.

I can attest to the chain reaction of escalation that gets pushed farther and farther back. It's best to n** it in the bud.



There is effort that must be taken on our part to live a Christ-like life. We can't just justify our actions with psychobabble and continue to live in sin. If we live in such a way, when we go to the final judgement, God will say "Away from me, I never knew you."

Word of the day: Accountability.



That was also taught by Jesus, btw.

Apparently thinking critically on an issue is confusing...(blind sheep syndrome)

"This is a Christian guild, not a "ok, let's do whatever we feel like as long as we can explain it away" guild."

Really
You don't say
So the opinions of a "bad" pagan like myself hold no weight because you must have the right answer...

btw that’s two cheep shots you've tossed my way but you didn't know so I think we can let it go yes?

"Word of the day: Accountability."
That’s nice
Accountability to God right?
And God doesn't want you to think because divinely inspired writers took down his words and recorded them in the Bible
I might bite on that one but King James just doesn't fit
Time and time again we find bad translations, and direct tampering, some may even go as far as to say parts were fabricated entirely by world leaders in an attempt to control populations (maybe)

My advice was to simply take a look at why a person might do what they do and not just take the bible as true without question

Also this morality you speak of is a cultural morality
the "I'm right and your wrong because I must be right" line is not going to work for me. Try and do a little better (not the first person to point this out)

"And if Paul isn't good enough"
nope
still no
and no
bring me something that isn't biblical to cross-reference
that would be a good start

"Psychobabble"
As if thinking is a bad thing  

[Manual Calavera]

Let's look at the blind sheep syndrome for a second, shall we?

In the first five books of the Jewish old testament, specifically Leviticus, there are many rules that, to someone who doesn't know anything about viruses, would seem like foolishness. Don't eat any of the bread with wetness on it after a gecko (or similar critter) has been on it. The cause of the diseases that came from that wouldn't be apparent to Moses, even if he was Batman.



Consider also the words in 2 Corinthians: "The natural man cannot discern the things of God, for they are spiritually appraised."

I'm standing up for what I believe in, lordstar. Do I understand it all? No. Does that change anything? No.



I don't expect everyone else to have had the same spiritual experiences that I have, I don't expect everyone to follow in my, Christ's, or anyone else's example (because I understand that some people simply won't), and I don't expect everyone to be able to join Jesus in the New Jerusalem.

I also stand that pegan = bad. Evidenced, not least of which, by you.  

[lordstar]

Manual Calavera

Let's look at the blind sheep syndrome for a second, shall we?

In the first five books of the Jewish old testament, specifically Leviticus, there are many rules that, to someone who doesn't know anything about viruses, would seem like foolishness. Don't eat any of the bread with wetness on it after a gecko (or similar critter) has been on it. The cause of the diseases that came from that wouldn't be apparent to Moses, even if he was Batman.



Consider also the words in 2 Corinthians: "The natural man cannot discern the things of God, for they are spiritually appraised."

I'm standing up for what I believe in, lordstar. Do I understand it all? No. Does that change anything? No.



I don't expect everyone else to have had the same spiritual experiences that I have, I don't expect everyone to follow in my, Christ's, or anyone else's example (because I understand that some people simply won't), and I don't expect everyone to be able to join Jesus in the New Jerusalem.

I also stand that pegan = bad. Evidenced, not least of which, by you.

And now your dragging Batman into this?

So tell me
Why are pagans bad?
Is it because they don't believe the same things you do?
And what evidence do you have other then the bible?
And how am I bad?

And for the record
I would think it would be a no-brainer to not eat contaminated food don't you

I still think it would be wise to understand or at least make an attempt to understand the whys rather then follow blindly
Another one of those no-brainers
And also just because you don't understand something that doesn't mean such things are impossible to understand (ooooo brain cramps are the pits aren't they)
I would claim that any claim such as "2 Corinthians" would be false
A lack of evidence is not proof of no evidence
Not that I fully understand all that is
Thus I cannot yet prove myself to be right either
So as long as you don't light me on fire I think we will be ok

I do have respect for you in that it takes a rock solid faith to go bounding off cliffs like a lemming (doesn't look like it but that is a complement and I don't think you are like a lemming)

So next time I hand you a 2 and a 5 your answer should be 7
How you keep getting a 6 idk

Did I loose you on that last bit?

"I don't expect everyone else to have had the same spiritual experiences that I have, I don't expect everyone to follow in my, Christ's, or anyone else's example (because I understand that some people simply won't), and I don't expect everyone to be able to join Jesus in the New Jerusalem."

ya that was a talk2hand move right there (brickwalling) and thus is going to be ignored until reworked

Really though you might want to take a look at the forum rules  

[Manual Calavera]

I'm gonna just go down this one and point out my reactions. I dunno, it might help if you got something more than just an aftermath response.

lordstar

And now your dragging Batman into this?

Only because he is, in the comics, reputedly the greatest detective who ever lived.

lordstar

So tell me
Why are pagans bad?

Past experiences, among other things.

lordstar

Is it because they don't believe the same things you do?

No, but having them fight me about everything I hold dear doesn't help.

lordstar

And what evidence do you have other then the bible?

Do past experiences count for nothing?

lordstar

And how am I bad?

Did I say you were bad? I just don't appreciate your tone a lot of the time. You come off as very argumentative.

lordstar

And for the record
I would think it would be a no-brainer to not eat contaminated food don't you

Then what about the cloven hoof thing? Both rabbits and pigs are off limits. That's nothing to do with contamination. No matter how you look at it, the kosher dietary requirements go farther than the medical knowledge of the time could have discerned, as evidenced by the fact that the much more scientifically and politically advanced cultures around the Jews didn't have a lot of those restrictions.

lordstar

I still think it would be wise to understand or at least make an attempt to understand the whys rather then follow blindly
Another one of those no-brainers

You say this as if you assume I've never questioned anything.

lordstar

And also just because you don't understand something that doesn't mean such things are impossible to understand (ooooo brain cramps are the pits aren't they)

That was a blatant insult against me, don't deny it.

lordstar

I would claim that any claim such as "2 Corinthians" would be false
A lack of evidence is not proof of no evidence
Not that I fully understand all that is
Thus I cannot yet prove myself to be right either

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"?

lordstar

So as long as you don't light me on fire I think we will be ok

I do have respect for you in that it takes a rock solid faith to go bounding off cliffs like a lemming (doesn't look like it but that is a complement and I don't think you are like a lemming)

~nod of acknowledgement, approval and respect for your tone~

lordstar

So next time I hand you a 2 and a 5 your answer should be 7

Oops, here it comes again.

lordstar

How you keep getting a 6 idk

Did I loose you on that last bit?

Yup, there's the other insult. Wish I could say I didn't see it coming. I had hoped for the insults to stop after the ack of my faith thing, but I guess that hope was mislaid.

lordstar

"I don't expect everyone else to have had the same spiritual experiences that I have, I don't expect everyone to follow in my, Christ's, or anyone else's example (because I understand that some people simply won't), and I don't expect everyone to be able to join Jesus in the New Jerusalem."

ya that was a talk2hand move right there (brickwalling) and thus is going to be ignored until reworked

Then let me rephrase it (Which, if I'm so simple-minded, your higher mind should have been able to discern the subtle meaning of my words already).

Ahem: "I don't expect everyone to be perfect. I know that not everyone is going to believe the way I do, and that's okay. I was prepared for that. I've accepted it. I know we're all meant for different things, and if there were no darkness or hell, the light and heaven wouldn't be as special."

lordstar

Really though you might want to take a look at the forum rules

I really don't see how I'm breaking them. You're being extremely legalistic and harsh in your interpretations of my words, and I feel as though you're judging me unfairly.  

[missymisa]

lordstar

I'm sure you have already had this talk but just in case

Just be smart about whatever you do
That’s the key
You may want to start thinking about talking to your doctor (fyi your doctor will with your request lock your medical records so (I case be) even your parents/partner will not be able to see...hell they wont even know its there)

One of the fun classes I have ever taken was a intro physical therapy class out at the local junior college
First time I had ever been "forked" it’s trippy...yo

Confession: I am a very hands-on kind of person (TK/A is my learning style...most people are more V/A) and holistic medicine is highly interesting

(Danger...incoming flood if information)
And I'll stop there

So I would say you can find your answer in examining the why's and not the rights and wrongs

why would I go to the doctor for that...I'm not gonna have sex with him if that's what you mean....no way..........I will NOT do that....that is for AFTER marriage, and it's gonna stay that way no matter what. That i do know for sure, is something I'll never do.....  

[Manual Calavera]

etchedspirit

lordstar

I'm sure you have already had this talk but just in case

Just be smart about whatever you do
That’s the key
You may want to start thinking about talking to your doctor (fyi your doctor will with your request lock your medical records so (I case be) even your parents/partner will not be able to see...hell they wont even know its there)

One of the fun classes I have ever taken was a intro physical therapy class out at the local junior college
First time I had ever been "forked" it’s trippy...yo

Confession: I am a very hands-on kind of person (TK/A is my learning style...most people are more V/A) and holistic medicine is highly interesting

(Danger...incoming flood if information)
And I'll stop there

So I would say you can find your answer in examining the why's and not the rights and wrongs

why would I go to the doctor for that...I'm not gonna have sex with him if that's what you mean....no way..........I will NOT do that....that is for AFTER marriage, and it's gonna stay that way no matter what. That i do know for sure, is something I'll never do.....

As was my original point in this thread, I'm afraid your advice was confusing, lordstar, and, thus, not very good advice.

The best advice gives aim or at least enlightens another point of view.

I knee-jerked it, though, and I'm sorry for that.  

[Manual Calavera]

etchedspirit

(PG-13 notice)
ugh...My boyfriend wants to get under my shirt and touch me and what not......I am just so confused now...i just don't know anymore....is it wrong for him to do that? It doesn't really bug me....in fact.....the very few time when he has done it...it felt good. Should I let him or should I say "hands off" What's ok and what not? HOw am i supposed to know where to draw the line? gonk
EDIT:
Ugh...It happend....and here I thought that "Oh I'm 18 I have self control, I'm "mature" enough, I can handle it".....uh...no the whole time i could hear God telling me "it wont happen if you don't let it" and of course he was right........I could have not let it happend, i had the power to stop it....but i didn't use it.....

I don't know what to tell you, etchedspirit. My best advice at this point is, if you don't want it to happen, hang out with groups of people. That's usually a good enough deterrent for most people.