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 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:34 pm
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:40 pm
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:12 pm
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berserker_girl Lethkhar First of all: If you are using wikipedia as your source, I pity you. Anyone can go and change wikipedia without having any knowledge of the subject. Second of all: I searched the entire page but didn't see one thing about chaos dwarves being part of chaos. Third of all: How can you be part of chaos without worshipping the chaos gods? There are minor gods.
Name one. |
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:47 pm
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Lethkhar berserker_girl Lethkhar First of all: If you are using wikipedia as your source, I pity you. Anyone can go and change wikipedia without having any knowledge of the subject. Second of all: I searched the entire page but didn't see one thing about chaos dwarves being part of chaos. Third of all: How can you be part of chaos without worshipping the chaos gods? There are minor gods. Name one.
Malal, God of Revenge, and the renegade God of Chaos. Hates the 4 powers by nature, and create his own form on Chaos. You could say that he isn't all too evil, because he gains power by, as you can say, sticking up for the little guy.
Child God of Chaos, not much known, but he played a role in Darkblades travels of the Chaos Wastes. Two for ya. |
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:03 pm
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Lethkhar berserker_girl Lethkhar First of all: If you are using wikipedia as your source, I pity you. Anyone can go and change wikipedia without having any knowledge of the subject. Second of all: I searched the entire page but didn't see one thing about chaos dwarves being part of chaos. Third of all: How can you be part of chaos without worshipping the chaos gods? There are minor gods. Name one.
I'll name three.
Malal*,The Horned Rat and Hashut.
If you read any of the chaos fluff you would know there are thousands of low ranking gods.Hell,the path of chaos is the path to godliness.
It goes:Warrior,Champion,Exalted champ,Lord,Deamon Prince,Demi-God,Lesser God...
It takes tons of work and maybe only one new god is elevated every hundred years but there are an increasing ammount.Thats what chaos undivided is,the vast ammount of deities including but not exclusive to Khone,Tzeentch,Nurgle and Slaanesh.
Now is the fun bit where reply too you're other queries and statments!JOY! blaugh
1]First of all: If you are using wikipedia as your source, I pity you. Anyone can go and change wikipedia without having any knowledge of the subject.
++While wiki can indeed be edited by anyone,it is watched by moderators who have to approve any edits done by people.They almost always check the sources and alot of veterans I know say wiki's WFB and 40K fluff is solid so STFU.
2]: I searched the entire page but didn't see one thing about chaos dwarves being part of chaos.
++The clue is in the name.Chaos Dwarfs...I wonder who's side they would be on? rolleyes
While it is true CD are not part of the main body of chaos unlike Mortals,beasts and deamons they are still chaotic.Their origins are down to chaos.They act more as allies to other chaos armies because they have no interests in war making any great wars themselves.They have all the slaves they need so they don't need anyone else.
3]How can you be part of chaos without worshipping the chaos gods?
++I think I've covered this but I'll go over the finer points again...just for you wink
To explain this we take me,the lovable Popo,as an example.I have been baptised so I am part of the Christian church yet I do not worship god or Jesus or any of that.I leave that to those who whish to.Therefor I am part of the Christian comunity but don't do all that kneeling and praying.
CD were blessed and saved by Hashut,a lesser Chaos god,and worship him but they don't get involved with the main players of the religion (chaos is still just a relgion),Those players being Khorne,Tzeentch,Nurgle and Slaanesh.
*Can be found on wiki. |
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:45 pm
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GT_Popogeejo Lethkhar berserker_girl Lethkhar First of all: If you are using wikipedia as your source, I pity you. Anyone can go and change wikipedia without having any knowledge of the subject. Second of all: I searched the entire page but didn't see one thing about chaos dwarves being part of chaos. Third of all: How can you be part of chaos without worshipping the chaos gods? There are minor gods. Name one. I'll name three. Malal*,The Horned Rat and Hashut. If you read any of the chaos fluff you would know there are thousands of low ranking gods.Hell,the path of chaos is the path to godliness. It goes:Warrior,Champion,Exalted champ,Lord,Deamon Prince,Demi-God,Lesser God... It takes tons of work and maybe only one new god is elevated every hundred years but there are an increasing ammount.Thats what chaos undivided is,the vast ammount of deities including but not exclusive to Khone,Tzeentch,Nurgle and Slaanesh. Now is the fun bit where reply too you're other queries and statments!JOY! blaugh 1]First of all: If you are using wikipedia as your source, I pity you. Anyone can go and change wikipedia without having any knowledge of the subject. ++While wiki can indeed be edited by anyone,it is watched by moderators who have to approve any edits done by people.They almost always check the sources and alot of veterans I know say wiki's WFB and 40K fluff is solid so STFU. 2]: I searched the entire page but didn't see one thing about chaos dwarves being part of chaos. ++The clue is in the name.Chaos Dwarfs...I wonder who's side they would be on? rolleyes While it is true CD are not part of the main body of chaos unlike Mortals,beasts and deamons they are still chaotic.Their origins are down to chaos.They act more as allies to other chaos armies because they have no interests in war making any great wars themselves.They have all the slaves they need so they don't need anyone else. 3]How can you be part of chaos without worshipping the chaos gods? ++I think I've covered this but I'll go over the finer points again...just for you wink To explain this we take me,the lovable Popo,as an example.I have been baptised so I am part of the Christian church yet I do not worship god or Jesus or any of that.I leave that to those who whish to.Therefor I am part of the Christian comunity but don't do all that kneeling and praying. CD were blessed and saved by Hashut,a lesser Chaos god,and worship him but they don't get involved with the main players of the religion (chaos is still just a relgion),Those players being Khorne,Tzeentch,Nurgle and Slaanesh. *Can be found on wiki.
Finally, someone with some sense. |
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:16 pm
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:01 am
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GT_Popogeejo Lethkhar berserker_girl Lethkhar First of all: If you are using wikipedia as your source, I pity you. Anyone can go and change wikipedia without having any knowledge of the subject. Second of all: I searched the entire page but didn't see one thing about chaos dwarves being part of chaos. Third of all: How can you be part of chaos without worshipping the chaos gods? There are minor gods. Name one. I'll name three. Malal*,The Horned Rat and Hashut. If you read any of the chaos fluff you would know there are thousands of low ranking gods.Hell,the path of chaos is the path to godliness. It goes:Warrior,Champion,Exalted champ,Lord,Deamon Prince,Demi-God,Lesser God... It takes tons of work and maybe only one new god is elevated every hundred years but there are an increasing ammount.Thats what chaos undivided is,the vast ammount of deities including but not exclusive to Khone,Tzeentch,Nurgle and Slaanesh. Now is the fun bit where reply too you're other queries and statments!JOY! blaugh 1]First of all: If you are using wikipedia as your source, I pity you. Anyone can go and change wikipedia without having any knowledge of the subject. ++While wiki can indeed be edited by anyone,it is watched by moderators who have to approve any edits done by people.They almost always check the sources and alot of veterans I know say wiki's WFB and 40K fluff is solid so STFU. 2]: I searched the entire page but didn't see one thing about chaos dwarves being part of chaos. ++The clue is in the name.Chaos Dwarfs...I wonder who's side they would be on? rolleyes While it is true CD are not part of the main body of chaos unlike Mortals,beasts and deamons they are still chaotic.Their origins are down to chaos.They act more as allies to other chaos armies because they have no interests in war making any great wars themselves.They have all the slaves they need so they don't need anyone else. 3]How can you be part of chaos without worshipping the chaos gods? ++I think I've covered this but I'll go over the finer points again...just for you wink To explain this we take me,the lovable Popo,as an example.I have been baptised so I am part of the Christian church yet I do not worship god or Jesus or any of that.I leave that to those who whish to.Therefor I am part of the Christian comunity but don't do all that kneeling and praying. CD were blessed and saved by Hashut,a lesser Chaos god,and worship him but they don't get involved with the main players of the religion (chaos is still just a relgion),Those players being Khorne,Tzeentch,Nurgle and Slaanesh. *Can be found on wiki.
(Sigh) I always hate following long posts like this. First of all:Yes I had forgotten about all those minor deities silly me I was tired while I was writing that. Anyways, a few things you nonetheless have wrong. Hashut is not a chaos god. He is a god in his own right figmented by the chaos dwarves. That was the point I was trying to make. Hashut is like Gork and Mork for the Orcs and Goblins. He's their god, not a chaos god. Oh and as far as I know The Horned Rat isn't a chaos god either.
Wikipedia is monitered, but you can make small changes, such as deleting a word here and there and completely change the interpretation. In fact, I deleted the part about their being a "rumor" that chaos dwarves would be part of chaos. It didn't seem to mind at all. So STFU right back at you.
Just because they have the word chaos in them doesn't mean they're part of chaos. This is the major problem I'm coming across when arguing with you guys about this. You can't get past the name. Give me a better reason than that, your argument's weak. And no their origins are not with chaos they're with dwarves.
Oh, and before you post. Do some research about what you're talking about. My brother collects chaos dwarves. I have a wealth of knowledge and experience behind me. Don't try to prove your point with things like "Well, they have the word chaos in their name so that means they're part of chaos!". |
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:13 am
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Excerpt taken from The World of Warhammer: An official illustrated guide to the fantasy world.
" Dwarf sagas tell how, before the Great Catastrophe, the Dawi race expanded northwards throughout the Wold's Edge Mountains, following seams of gold and other precious minerals.
The most impetuous of these explorers ventured beyond the mountians into the barren upland plateau knonw as Zorn Uzkul (literally 'Great Skull Land'). Many turned back from this sterile region, which offered nothing in the way of sheltore or mineral wealth, but a reckless few turned eastwards and pressed on towards the Mountains of Mourn, eventually losing contact with their western kinsman.
This proved to be an unfortunate choice, as the are between the two mountain ranges was extremely exposed. When the Time of Chaosdescended on the Warhammer World, the region became a desolation of fire and shadow, and what little life existed there was blasted by an unnatural holocaust. Like their brethren in the World's Edge Mountains, the hardy Dwarf settlers mangaged to survive the chaotic apocalypse, though they were not able to shelter form its mutationg energies. Over time they began to change. FOr the most part their bodies were unscathed, but their minds were slowly corrupted by the malevolent forces of Chaos.
All that was good and noble in the Dwarfs became bitter and twisted as they gavet heir soulds to Hashut, the Father of Darkness. No longer content to work their mines and forges for themselves, they set about enslaving members of neighbouring tribes, and founded a dark empire built on the sweat and blood of other raves. In their own tongue they gave themselves the name of Dawi'zharr (Literally 'Dwarfs of the Place of Fire'), but to the rest of the Warhammer World these hateful, warped outcasts came to be known simply as the Chaos Dwarfs."
I did my homework. And I don't know what the hell the main point of the argument is, but this should put an end to it. Dwarfs + Chaos corruption = Chaos Dwarfs.
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:38 am
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Ok the origins of the CD;
This is taken from the new Dwarf book so I think we can assume this is the fluff that takes presidence.
The coming of chaos.
According to one account in the great book of Grudges,the most anceint books of lore,the coming of chaos rent the earth and sky,nad tore the very mountains apart.the sky darkend and the turbulent winds of multi-coloured magic clouded the air.It was evident that something terrible was occurring.The dwarfs watched the skies,uncertain as to what was to happen.
The Dwarfs maintain the Grungni himself warned the Dwarfs of the coming of chaos and showed them how to delve deep beneath the mountains.there,in the dark they took shelter as the winds of magic scoured the earth.In their wake,the winds left clouds that seteled into a layer of fine black warp dust wich mutated and corupted everything it touched.The Dwarfs huddled in their mines and caves as everything on the surface was tainted by chaos.Eventually the dreadfull tempest passed and the Dwarfs emerged once moe into daylight.They found the world had changed.Terrifying mohsters roamed the mountains and Deamons stalked the land in daylight.
The Dwarfs were not defencless.The anceint tales tell how Grungni taught them how to inscribe magical runes on their weapons and armour.He armed Grimnir with two mighty axes and armour harder than the bones of the mountains.From their underground strongholds,the armies of the Dwarfs sallied forth to do battle against the hordes of chaos.Valaya protected against the dark magics and Grimnir slew many deaons with his axes.They did not have the numbers to tuen back the tides but atleast they could keep their realm free.
So now we see Chaos is corrupting anything that can't hide.Lets see what our friends in the East are upto at this time.
The orphans.
The Dwarfs who had crossed the Great Skull lands were not so well defended.Their delvings werenowhere near as deep as those in the Worlds Edge Mountains and no Grungni,Grimnir or Valaya rose up to lead them,or atleast no heros have been recorded.The corruption of these Dwarfs into Chaos Dwarfs is a constant ommission in an otherwise comlete dwarfen history.All that is recorded is that around this time is that the family trees of the most anceint clans were amended in some way.Clans with ancestors who went east were now "adopted" as orphans by clans that emained behind.Clans whos sons' had marched east no longer recognised that they had kin at all.Although many clans claim decent form the Ancestor gods,the disruption caused in clan records of this time make it very difficult to be sure about lineages dating back beyond this point.The Dwarfs have kept their silence on the Orphan clans and it is considered a great innsult to even mention CD in their pressence.
So there we have it.The Dwarfs who went east got corrupted by the coming of chaos.
As for research my cuddly little friend,I have done plenty.I have friends on Hand of Hashut and have read even more fluuf on the CD.I could tell a detailed account of how the Dwarfs disscovred the CD on the adoption od Hashut,the chaos god of Fire and metal.Just because your brother collects CD does not make him or you authority on them.
Facts about CD:
They enslve deaons to give their machines a little Oomph"
They were created by chaos,
they created the black orks,
they are part of chaos.
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:31 pm
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berserker_girl Excerpt taken from The World of Warhammer: An official illustrated guide to the fantasy world. " Dwarf sagas tell how, before the Great Catastrophe, the Dawi race expanded northwards throughout the Wold's Edge Mountains, following seams of gold and other precious minerals. The most impetuous of these explorers ventured beyond the mountians into the barren upland plateau knonw as Zorn Uzkul (literally 'Great Skull Land'). Many turned back from this sterile region, which offered nothing in the way of sheltore or mineral wealth, but a reckless few turned eastwards and pressed on towards the Mountains of Mourn, eventually losing contact with their western kinsman. This proved to be an unfortunate choice, as the are between the two mountain ranges was extremely exposed. When the Time of Chaosdescended on the Warhammer World, the region became a desolation of fire and shadow, and what little life existed there was blasted by an unnatural holocaust. Like their brethren in the World's Edge Mountains, the hardy Dwarf settlers mangaged to survive the chaotic apocalypse, though they were not able to shelter form its mutationg energies. Over time they began to change. FOr the most part their bodies were unscathed, but their minds were slowly corrupted by the malevolent forces of Chaos. All that was good and noble in the Dwarfs became bitter and twisted as they gavet heir soulds to Hashut, the Father of Darkness. No longer content to work their mines and forges for themselves, they set about enslaving members of neighbouring tribes, and founded a dark empire built on the sweat and blood of other raves. In their own tongue they gave themselves the name of Dawi'zharr (Literally 'Dwarfs of the Place of Fire'), but to the rest of the Warhammer World these hateful, warped outcasts came to be known simply as the Chaos Dwarfs." I did my homework. And I don't know what the hell the main point of the argument is, but this should put an end to it. Dwarfs + Chaos corruption = Chaos Dwarfs.
Congratulations you figured it out! Now tell me, does it say anywhere in that that the Chaos Dwarves began to worship chaos? NO, they began to worship Hashut, their own god. Just because they were twisted by chaos doesn't make them chaos. Dark Elves, again, were twisted by chaos and they're not a part of chaos. Hell, the Empire's been twisted by chaos. |
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:38 pm
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GT_Popogeejo Ok the origins of the CD; This is taken from the new Dwarf book so I think we can assume this is the fluff that takes presidence. The coming of chaos.According to one account in the great book of Grudges,the most anceint books of lore,the coming of chaos rent the earth and sky,nad tore the very mountains apart.the sky darkend and the turbulent winds of multi-coloured magic clouded the air.It was evident that something terrible was occurring.The dwarfs watched the skies,uncertain as to what was to happen.
The Dwarfs maintain the Grungni himself warned the Dwarfs of the coming of chaos and showed them how to delve deep beneath the mountains.there,in the dark they took shelter as the winds of magic scoured the earth.In their wake,the winds left clouds that seteled into a layer of fine black warp dust wich mutated and corupted everything it touched.The Dwarfs huddled in their mines and caves as everything on the surface was tainted by chaos.Eventually the dreadfull tempest passed and the Dwarfs emerged once moe into daylight.They found the world had changed.Terrifying mohsters roamed the mountains and Deamons stalked the land in daylight.
The Dwarfs were not defencless.The anceint tales tell how Grungni taught them how to inscribe magical runes on their weapons and armour.He armed Grimnir with two mighty axes and armour harder than the bones of the mountains.From their underground strongholds,the armies of the Dwarfs sallied forth to do battle against the hordes of chaos.Valaya protected against the dark magics and Grimnir slew many deaons with his axes.They did not have the numbers to tuen back the tides but atleast they could keep their realm free.So now we see Chaos is corrupting anything that can't hide.Lets see what our friends in the East are upto at this time. The orphans.The Dwarfs who had crossed the Great Skull lands were not so well defended.Their delvings werenowhere near as deep as those in the Worlds Edge Mountains and no Grungni,Grimnir or Valaya rose up to lead them,or atleast no heros have been recorded.The corruption of these Dwarfs into Chaos Dwarfs is a constant ommission in an otherwise comlete dwarfen history.All that is recorded is that around this time is that the family trees of the most anceint clans were amended in some way.Clans with ancestors who went east were now "adopted" as orphans by clans that emained behind.Clans whos sons' had marched east no longer recognised that they had kin at all.Although many clans claim decent form the Ancestor gods,the disruption caused in clan records of this time make it very difficult to be sure about lineages dating back beyond this point.The Dwarfs have kept their silence on the Orphan clans and it is considered a great innsult to even mention CD in their pressence.
So there we have it.The Dwarfs who went east got corrupted by the coming of chaos. As for research my cuddly little friend,I have done plenty.I have friends on Hand of Hashut and have read even more fluuf on the CD.I could tell a detailed account of how the Dwarfs disscovred the CD on the adoption od Hashut,the chaos god of Fire and metal.Just because your brother collects CD does not make him or you authority on them. Facts about CD: They enslve deaons to give their machines a little Oomph" They were created by chaos, they created the black orks, they are part of chaos.
Chaos Dwarves were not created by chaos. They were warped by it. Big difference. Demons are the only things that have actually be created by chaos. Oh and Chaos dwarves bred black orcs, they didn't create them. Yet again, I need a source. Where does Games Workshop ever say that they're part of Chaos. Give me one undisputable trace of evidence, and I will consent. Yet again, corruption does not mean servitude or creation. |
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:27 pm
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GT_Popogeejo Deamons are the only thing created by chaos?What about the beastmen,the skaven and mutants? Hashut is a lesser chaos god and there is nothing saying otherwise.Gork and Mork are psycic manisfestaions of orc mentality. Black Orcs were created by a mix of breeding and dark magic by the CD mages. As for the CD not being chaos just because they were only warped is stupid.Sorry but it is.Chaos warped the normal dwarfs into a form that suited them,thus creting a new species of dwarf,the Chaos Dwarf. Your Dark Elf argument has a flaw.They weren't brought about by chaos.Malekith turned against the High elves when they refused to make him High KIng,wich was his birth right. The Empire argument is just as flawed.Men were corrupted,not just one nation but not every man.Chaos warriors come from every nation of men. In conclusion;CD are part of Chaos like it or lump it.Thank you and goodnight. Also while I'm posting; http://www.chaosdwarf.com/cd/
Beastmen weren't created by chaos. The first beastmen were actually humans mutated beyond recognition. They bred and made more beastmen. Skaven are the same thing. They're there own race. Mutant? You mean chaos spawn? Those were once human believe it or not. They were warped, not created. You also say that Hashut is a chaos god and "there's nothing that says otherwise". However, is there anything that says he is a chaos god? You say that black orcs were created by a mix of breeding and magic. By created, I am left to assume that you mean the sorcerors decided one day that their orc slaves weren't strong enough so they said,"Hocus Pocus" and 'poof' you have black orcs. That's very far from the truth. The truth is that Black orcs were bred and mutated by magic, not created. You also just agreed with me by saying that Chaos dwarves were warped by chaos. However, they were not created by chaos and they have there own plans for their race. Yes I know the history of Dark elves I'm talking about the cult of slaanesh. They're not part of chaos, and they're not part of dark elves. So what are they? Their own army! Wow just like Chaos Dwarves! Also, try reading a few of the warhammer books before you say that members of the empire that are twisted by chaos always join chaos. That's just plain stupid. You're saying there's no gray area. Just bad and good.
P.S. What does that website have to do with this argument? |
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