Hell and Hades

[ElenaMason]

now through multiple threads and multiple posts, I see that alot of people assume that

1) Hell is open right now. (according to the bible NO)
2) Hell is the same as Hades. (depending on where the word is being used in the bible, NO)
3) Satan rules in Hell. (NO)

all of which are completely misunderstood and FALSE. where is my proof? well before i go posting a HUGE thread about what "I" think, how about YOU guys tell me what you think, why you think im wrong, your "scriptual evidence", ill refute you, you'll refute me back and THEN we'll see where this goes.

so type away, ill be waiting. and trust me this will, if nothing else, i think turn into a VERY interesting if not interesting debate thats not only informational, but gives better understanding of this biblical concept. this subject however was brought up in the main forum, but i think alot of people that mainly type inthe "debating" subforum here haven't even heard or considered what i will soon show.  

[torrinne]

I had alway assumed that the two words were more or less interchangable, but I don't have any scriptural evidence, and I'd be very interested to see yours.

As for Satan not being the ruler in Hell, I have two verses for you.
Revelations 12:9 "The great Dragon--ancient serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, the one who lead the whole earth astray..."
This verse is just to establish the identity of the Dragon as Satan--the Devil. The next one is the important one.
Revelations 13:2 "The dragon turned its power over to it, its throne and great authority." Now. This verse tells us clearly that the Dragon--Satan--had a throne. Now, as the Dragon is fallen from heaven, this throne cannot be a heavenly throne, nor would it be an earthly throne because the earth is of God. Thus, the only throne left, logically, is the throne of Hell. Now, this verse says clearly that the dragon eventually steps down from its throne (although I didn't include that part, it's turning it over to the Beast), but as the events in Revelations are a vision of the future we can conclude that Satan holds the throne of Hell. I'd be interested to hear your evidence to the contrary.

Edit: By two words, I mean hell and hades.  

[ElenaMason]

torrinne

I had alway assumed that the two words were more or less interchangable, but I don't have any scriptural evidence, and I'd be very interested to see yours.

As for Satan not being the ruler in Hell, I have two verses for you.
Revelations 12:9 "The great Dragon--ancient serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, the one who lead the whole earth astray..."
This verse is just to establish the identity of the Dragon as Satan--the Devil. The next one is the important one.
Revelations 13:2 "The dragon turned its power over to it, its throne and great authority." Now. This verse tells us clearly that the Dragon--Satan--had a throne. Now, as the Dragon is fallen from heaven, this throne cannot be a heavenly throne, nor would it be an earthly throne because the earth is of God. Thus, the only throne left, logically, is the throne of Hell. Now, this verse says clearly that the dragon eventually steps down from its throne (although I didn't include that part, it's turning it over to the Beast), but as the events in Revelations are a vision of the future we can conclude that Satan holds the throne of Hell. I'd be interested to hear your evidence to the contrary.

Edit: By two words, I mean hell and hades.

ah now you have to be careful with revelations. its FULL of metaphorical speech. however....i have to go into work right now ^^; sorry so it wont be till later tonight before i can actually post some useful information. however the verse you posted, about Satan leading the whole "earth" astray. wouldnt that give you a hint thats hes been on the earth before? anyway gotta go. work time crying  

[ElenaMason]

all righty! im back from work and ready to debate....if there IS anything to debate.

now before i go posting tons of random scripture, let me post the most famous tale and the ONLY chapter(book) in the bible that talks about the detail of what its like in Hades. this is probably going to get lengthy so i suggest you get some popcorn and read (carefully). please dont just skim people, trust me youll find it interesting. but the littlest detail you ignore could be a key factor into understanding what im showing.

Luke 16: 22-24

22: Now It came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23: And in HADES he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24: And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this FLAME."

now, depending on where you read int he bible, Hades is often translated as "hell", used 11 times in the New Testament....HOWEVER....The Septuagint used hades to translate the Hebrew "s'ol" (the place of the dead) on 61 occassions. Here hades refers to the abode of the unsaved dead prior to the great white trhone judgement. "Abraham's side" appraently refers to a place of paradise for Old Testament believers at the time of death.

Neither "sheol" nor "hades" refer to the eternal state and should NOT be considered equivalent to the English word "hell" which propersly is the place of eternal punishment. The lake of fire referred to as "the fiery lake of burning sulfur" is the same as gehenna (Matt 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6) and is translated "hell" in the NIV and KJV with the word "fire" added in several passeges. Actually gehenna was originally a name for the place of burning refuse, located in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem....

What is Hades exactly then?: HADES- the place or state of the dead, as contrasted with the final punishment of the wicked. In the NT Greek, the word occurs ten times as I've already said and is uniformly rendered "hell" in KJV (a very false and MISINTERPRETED bible). In the TR from which KJV was translated, the word occurs also in 1Cor 15:55 and is rendered "grave," but in the better texts the Greek has "thanate" and ASV "death," which is correct. The NT word is taken over from the Greek mythology, where Hades was the god of the lower regions. Although the word was taken from heathen myths, the concept is from the OT word "Sheol". Sheol occurs 65 times in the Hebrew OT and is rendered in KJV as "hell" 31 times (which is completely wrong in the KJV), "the grave" 31 times, and "the pit" three times; but in ASV it is uniformly transliterated Sheol, even as Hades in the ASV is a transliteration rather than an attempt to translate the Greek.

What is transliteration? It means, in a nutshell, to bascially take a word and just use it as a word WITHOUT translating it into what it really is. Hell is transliterated ALOT as is Hades into both of them meaning the same thing, whic of course isnt true.

For the most part, the NT does not give very definite light on Hades. In Matthew 11:23 (cross reference. Luke 10:15) our Lord says that Capernaum will go down into Hades. The preposition "down" points to the OT teaching that Sheol is inside the "earth" (Amos 9:2; Ps. 139:8, etc).
In Matthew 16:18, "the gates of hell" seem to be a reference to Satan's headquarters, as the great enemy of the Christian Church.

Is Hell open right now then? No. Hell is not open.
Revelations 20: 12-15

12: And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and DEATH and HADES gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14: And DEATH and HEADES were THROWN into the "lake of fire". This is the SECOND death, the lake of fire.
15: And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell is also known as the Abyss. And if it was opened right now...why would it need a key?

Revelations 20: 1 -And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the KEY of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. (this is when Satan will be thrown into the abyss, which ill discuss as a second topic later)

There is also another verse and book in the bible that shows that nothing is in Hell right now, no planning no activity no nothing.

Ecclesiastes 9: 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, verily, do it with all your might; for there is NO ACTIVITY or planning or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

i think thatll be it for now. any questions?  

[Seority]

I've known about this hell and satan issue for a while now. Not being the bible scholar that I'm not, I can't say any specific verses like the ones posted before. It does, though, make sence to me that hell isn't open yet, and that satan still "walks" the earth.
I think that when you die you go into like a frozen slumber like the Lost In Space people, and once everybody's dead, I think, that they will go to thier destinations, after getting their final judgement from God of course. This is just what makes sence to me, and it's what I hear from my Sunday church service.

 

[ElenaMason]

Seority

I've known about this hell and satan issue for a while now. Not being the bible scholar that I'm not, I can't say any specific verses like the ones posted before. It does, though, make sence to me that hell isn't open yet, and that satan still "walks" the earth.
I think that when you die you go into like a frozen slumber like the Lost In Space people, and once everybody's dead, I think, that they will go to thier destinations, after getting their final judgement from God of course. This is just what makes sence to me, and it's what I hear from my Sunday church service.

you are quite correct, but this is no comfortable place. its not as BAD as Hell will be. but people are still in flames at least from the little that is shown in the story of the poor and the rich man.

"And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in AGONY in this FLAME."

so its no comfortable place unfortunately :/  

[ElenaMason]

well if theres no more further questions then i shall continue.

The "satan ruling in hell" debate has floated around time for a good good while. so heres some verses that show him romaing about on the earth ONLY.


Revelations 12: 9-10

9: And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who decieves the WHOLE WORLD; he was thrown down to EARTH (not down to Hell) and his angels were thrown down WITH him.
10:And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

and again in verse 12 (verse 11 just stating how God overthrewn him and why)

12: "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. WOE to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to YOU (to us, not to Hell to US) having great wrath, knowing that he has only a SHORT TIME.

and yet AGAIN in verse 13

13: And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down TO EARTH, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

How more LITERAL can you get than THAT? Each time it says thrown down to EARTH, NOT Hell. How can people possibly refuted what that says? Of course, probably other translations of the bible like the NKJ, or the KJ or the NIV or whatever could have switched the word Earth, out for Hell. However.....

I think the verses that get people confused is in Isaieh 14.

Isaieh 14: 12-17

12:"How you have fallen from Heaven, O star of the morning, son of the Dawn! You have been cut down to the EARTH, You who have weakened the nations!"
13: "But you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the North.
14: 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'
15: "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to (Sheol), to the recesses of the pit.
16: "those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
17: who made the world like a wilderness and overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?

Verse 15 specifically I think is what is confusing people. The chapter in Revelations I mentioned above, is just a repeat of what is described in THIS chapter. However, I believe this is being spoken in a future tense about what is said in verse 15. Future tense meaning that once we are snatched up to Heaven, all the believers seperated from the non believers on earth during the rapture, and then Satan is thrown into the abyss, WE ALL finally get to see for he really is, the terror which wrought upon us while WE WERE ON EARTH.

But ALSO, Sheol has some odd meanings as does the word Hades and Hell. And depending on what place and time AND CHAPTER the word is being used, Sheol can give an entirely different meaning for that verse. And this is where people end up in arguments, like this one, as to the true meaning of the verse.

In this case, it is actually saying (...be brought low to the grave, pit is also synonym for grave). A grave is set in the Earth, this being EARTH bound, not Hell bound. And as I said before why would Hell need a "key" to be opened if it wasnt already opened? Why would Satan have to be thrown into Hell if he wasn't already ruling in there? This I mentioned above refering to the verses in Revelations.

Think of it ALSO like this. Beyond just translation......look at the grammer of the sentence.

"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to (Sheol), to the recesses of the pit."

This sentence is speaking in a future tense. He WILL be thrust down. Its not "he IS thrust down into Sheol". This makes a difference in how the setence is read. The same thing in Revelations. I mean come on. If he was already ruling in Hell, if he was already in there WHY would God specifically say seperately that he was thrown to earth? Why would verses specially say that he WILL be thrown into Hell if not now?

there, hope that brings some light to the issue smile and i hope you guys found it enjoyable to read/know.

any questions? if not then i guess this thread will turn into another dead one, but if nothing else, an informational one.  

[rockmanx]

I did a study on the NT Hell about five years ago. Why I did a study, it was after taking a Mythological class. i found three wornd in the NT that where translated to hell.
Gehinna, thee trash pit that always burned
Hades, the grave
Tarto or Tartus in English, a place in Hades where the worest go. In the bibile it was the pit that holds Satan for a thounsad year.

Gehinna was use to reprosent the lake of Fire, AKA YHWH who is according to Deuteronomy 4:24 & Hebrews 12:29 "is a consuming fire."  

[Seority]

SaintChaos

you are quite correct, but this is no comfortable place. its not as BAD as Hell will be. but people are still in flames at least from the little that is shown in the story of the poor and the rich man.

"And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in AGONY in this FLAME."

so its no comfortable place unfortunately :/

Did I mention a comfy space? No. I mean that they are frozen to time. Like say I were to die right now. The rapture takes place in a few years from then. When I get boosted to get judged by God it seems as though nothing went on. I died and boom I was there. This is off topic though and I appologize. I don't really think this is proved in anyway, it's just my assumtion.