Morality in Paganism

[Brass Bell Doll]

I was banned for posting this in another guild, but I feel comfortable in the belief that this will not happen here.

I do not feel individual pagans lack morality for simply being pagan, instead I feel that most of us, having left mainstream religions to become pagan do not benefit from a common moral code, nor are we guaranteed to be exposed to one for simply being pagan.

If we are Christian, there is a high probability that we will be exposed to the Golden Rule and the Law of Love, and likely morals from the Old Testament. If Jewish, we are likely to be exposed to the Laws of Moses, and also the writings of other Jewish figures, including Psalmists who highlight moral behavior in their passages, what makes for a good man or woman. Within Islam the Koran highlights what it believes is moral behavior. Regardless of how these writings are misrepresented or how accurate they are, or applicable to modern society, there is at least a communal sense of morality and a book people may turn to in order to see what is expected in their society.

I feel that pagans, by virtue of having hundreds of religions which are not always interrelated, we have no community expectations of a set moral code. I know members of Astru who rely on the Havamal, or the Nine Noble Virtues or the work of Odinist Priests, or the Eddas as parables. I know of Greek Pagans who rely on the Delphic Maxims, others who have a completely different set of maxims, still others who could not tell you what a maxim is, but they are very devout to Apollo.

The following is nothing more than a personal belief: I feel morality is shaped in three ways. On a social level, we develop morals that will protect the community and continue to protect our resources and our ability to further our existence as an individual and as a family unit. On an individual level, we develop a sense of morality that is about equality and fairness. On a spiritual level, we develop a sense of morality that stems from a Divine Truth. These are methods of experiencing morality, not moral codes in themselves, and even then, they have layers or stages in each style that look very differently from the other stages in the same style.

Below is a commentary on a portion of morality. It deals with privilege, what it is, how it works and why it is a moral issue.

When words hurt others and perpetuates a system wherein people are considered better than another group is this a moral thing?
I would hope that using reason, if we could articulate and demonstrate that the term is a hurtful derogatory phrase, we would honor requests to respect those boundaries.

Such boundaries are about respect- if respect is to be received, it must also be given, at the end of the day, I do not feel any of us truly wants to hurt another person, but when boundaries are crossed, people do get hurt.

Privilege structures aren't something most of us are taught. In school, we are taught that to use specific words is wrong. Slurs that address ethnic minorities are very commonly discussed as part of our history. We are also often taught about sexism. When we see this pattern we are taught, we know how to react- that to degrade another person, on a one on one basis, or as a society is "wrong". But I feel we aren't taught about how to recognize social patterns that are used to raise people up, or other social patterns that are used to hold people down.

There are words that aren't thought of as ethnic slurs and are part of our common vocabulary. There are words that are slurs against people with mental and physical illnesses or disabilities. There are slurs against people who belong to certain nations or religions, different age groups, economic prosperity or lack thereof, gender, sex, orientation and creed.

I feel intent can mitigate the instance, but it doesn't undo the harm that comes from attitudes born of a society that devalues people. Accidents happen. In the case of privilege, language and slurs, there are slurs that are so common that we do not think of them as slurs. I feel this is a sign of how deeply ingrained these attitudes are, not that it is proof these attitudes do not exist.

I feel in my parents era, that someone could have just as easily said that it was closed minded for a person to ask that we not use ethnic slurs against blacks, or Italians, or Catholics.

I feel that any slur, a word that has a history of degrading other people, by marking them as "less than", should not be so common and accepted that it contributes to the power structures that harm people.

While I feel there have been good points made, I also feel my position has been misrepresented.
The following is not my position:
That using the slurs makes someone a bad person.
That using the slurs means that they intended to be hurtful.
That the popular use of the word removes, destroys, undoes or otherwise negates the harm the word does.
That it is the intent or interpretation that has anything to do with what I am speaking of.

Instead, this is my position:

I feel there are larger social and psychological structures here. These structures have been persisting for so many generations that attitudes are ingrained in the language and our way of thinking. These attitudes change slowly over time when people find the way these structures effect people unacceptable. These structures include systems that promote some, granting them unspoken, unwritten social benefits while causing those who do not meet the requirements to not have an even playing field in the eyes of their cultural peers. In the past, this has manifested in ways that we can easily understand. Paying someone less for the same job done by another because of their gender or the color of their skin is wrong. Denying someone freedom for these reasons is wrong. In our day, these examples aren't seen as often- especially in countries like the United States. I feel it is much more subtle these days. Instead of an employer hanging a sign that asks for white applicants only, an ethnic name on an application is discarded, and a name like John is kept. It is even possible that the employer didn't make this a cognitive choice. That they read a name like Tyrone and looked through the application, on an unconscious level seeking flaws- reasons to disqualify that application. I feel these aren't always choices, things we are aware of, but instead are unconscious biases that are a result of a culture that teaches different is dangerous. I also feel this isn't always about culture, but instead a form of instinct that is designed, on a primal level, to keep us safe by surrounding us with the familiar.

I feel the way we change, like the way we have changed, is to examine why and how these behaviors crop up, and then to make changes, small and large, to undo the patterns.


One sign that there is resistance to actually hearing the message would be internal chatter. If you hear yourself saying "I'm not privileged" or "This isn't what's going on" or "I don't mean it that way", please take a step back, remember that this isn't something any of us have done- this is a product of history, and that we can change the effects privilege can have on our society by exploring it.

The term "privilege" can be misleading for those first coming into contact with it - it is not the extras in life, but the things we can't get rid of even if we try, like the colour of our skin, our gender, the socio-economic class we're raised as part of. The expectations and assumptions that come with being born white, upper middle class, and female, for instance *cough*, have meant that I can charm my way out of a traffic ticket, no-one automatically assumes I'm shoplifting when I go into a store, and it was expected that I would go to college and do well in life. Here's a more comprehensive list of the various privileges we do and do not have - it's worth reading the ones you don't have to get a feel for the ones you do.

From Laurel's Livejournal.

I understand this is a lot of reading, and a great deal of information to wrap our heads around. I feel I am still learning myself and I have been studying this for years.  

[AvalonAuggie]

1) I agree with this. It's been a while since I took Queer Theory but everything I remember reading about cultural constructs and how they are built and taken down rings true here. Situations of privilege have to be recognized, discussed, and understood by all parties involved before they can be changed.

An observation I've made is that I can most easily effect change when I notice the use of a slur by someone I know personally, who is close to me. These instances are much more jarring to me than hearing them (or overhearing them) from strangers. Additionally, the increased...emotional damage, I want to say, from the proximity of my relationship with that person makes it easier to start the conversation and change their mind and habits. Little tiny baby steps towards progress of course, but people who care about each other educating each other is a good step nonetheless.

2) You were banned for this post? This? I'm...horrified. I mean if the discussion had devolved into personal attacks or screaming obscenities on both sides, perhaps I would understand, but this is the most sensible, concise explanation of the issue I've seen in a while. Now, I don't want to go over to this other guild and raise hell in your defense because I feel like that would start a huge mess (and obviously these people would take major offense to that), but if I may ask, what guild was this, so I can know to avoid it? PM me if you like if you don't want this thread to be too much sour grapes.

3) This is related to a topic I've been wrestling with myself lately. I'm constructing my own personal path, and you're absolutely right, it's difficult operating without assumptions of a set moral code, and I'm envious of those who do have a communal morality and a book source to turn to. The source I keep thinking about is the U.S. Constitution, or more specifically the phrase "life, liberty, and property." Now that I've done a bit more research I feel like at the very least the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a good moral platform to start from. I haven't had time to take a close look at all of it (literally just discovered its existence) but would you agree that it lays down some good basic foundations?

A person's agency would fall under liberty (or liberty and security of person) and speech or actions that deprive a person of their agency are, definitely, immoral.

4) Again, I seriously cannot wrap my head around the idea of being banned for this post. What is wrong with people.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

As a note, the NNV are bullshit. They're a decontextualisation of the Havamal. I as an Asatruar (Asatrynur? I've never figured out the feminine unfortunately) feel no compulsion to follow them, and in fact would disagree with anyone who things they exemplify what the Gods want us to do.

Let me give an example:

The second one is Truth and the fourth is honour, at least under the Odinic Rite it is. For AFA, the fourth principle is that honour is better than dishonour. So no lying and don't dishonour yourself. Well that's cool enough, but then why haven't we thrown Tyr out of the pantheon yet? He's an oathbreaker, and willingly dishonoured himself. And I'm not talking about some bullshit version of events here, he is in fact punished for losing his hand as he is declared to be unfit as a civil judge because of his actions (whereas Forseti is fit to be one). So what's up?

What's up is that the Noble Virtues are useless, even as a guideline. They're a nice sentiment, they're just useless. To take an actual lesson from both the Havamal and Tyr, the Gods do indeed want us to be honest and keep to our honour. But when we have to break it? Break it. By all means. Tyr had to do what he did, because someone had to ensure Fenrir was bound. But, in breaking our oaths, we have to to accept the consequences, just as Tyr did. So, if you see what I just did, keeping the Havamal in context with the other myths is a whack more usefull than the NNV will ever be.

My experience with members of Asatru who use the Nine Noble Virtues is that they are Virtues, ideals to strive for, but like the gods, people are sometimes placed in impossible situations. A dear friend of mine was in a similar situation, bound by oath to an abusive lover, she had to choose if she would remain with her and keep her oath to the woman she swore to or leave her and keep her oath to the god she had promised to serve in body and mind- something she could not do when her body was being harmed.

In situations like this, as with Tyr, while there is a loss of honor in breaking their word, there is also a social restoration of that honor when atonement is made. She did this by paying a fee at the Thing.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

So much for codifying morals from the Havamal, eh? Then again, one of the stanzas suggest women are untrustworthy, so trying to codify morals from it is just asking to be useless. I would prefer people use their heads rather than trying to find a rules list anyways.

I admit I feel this is my personal preference as well. I find though that there are a number of factors that determine if this is the best way for people to learn what it is to be moral.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Eehhhhh, I would have to say that the latter group should probably get to learning what a maxim is. Maxims of advice feature largely in Greek worship and writing. Look at the Greek authors. Plato and Socrates are full of advice memes and Aesop's fables are basically a collection of stories that lead to maxims.

I agree, however I also feel that their development is not always framed in the same way mine is. If it is not considered undue, I feel we are similar in our approach, if not the end conclusion.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

I don't know if I necessarily agree with this one. Equality and fairness are nice, but they can take a back seat to other things even on an individual level. Then again, my morals work like ancient laws do. It's hard to separate the spiritual from the social and so on.

I prefaced it the way I did as I am paraphrasing a very specific developmental model. I would be happy to find my notes and post a more detailed explanation if you are interested.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

That entirely depends on what we're talking about, and how we define better. For instance it could hurt some people that they don't get to be called medical doctors just because they didn't go to med school and feel like they aren't as good as said doctors, and I really couldn't care less about their feelings. In other cases, obviously it would work the other way, where it's not a moral thing.

I agree, I was speaking in terms of social justice, not emotional gratification in and of itself. I'm sorry for any miscommunication.  

[Gho the Girl]

They . . . banned you for this post?

Man.

Anyways, I agree, very well written.

It drives me up a wall how so many privileged, 'ist terms there are that are used in common language. "Crazy" is a big one. Being gay myself, it gives me a personal view into this phenomena as it's happening. Who knows, a couple more generations and this whole "That's so gay" thing could become permanent.  

[Bastemhet]

Brass Bell Doll

But I feel we aren't taught about how to recognize social patterns that are used to raise people up, or other social patterns that are used to hold people down.

*bing* Hit the nail on the head. I would add that we should also know where the ideas come from and their function. I'm sad that I'm just realizing this now at 24, when it should be drilled into our heads by the time we get to high school. It's not enough to think something is racist yet be too scared to ever ask why.  

[CuAnnan]

Well articulated, written and thought out.
I take my hat off to you.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

CuAnnan

Well articulated, written and thought out.
I take my hat off to you.

Thank you very much.

Celeblin Galadeneryn, would you be interested in me posting the notes on that moral development model?  

[FlySammyJ]

So I've been trying to avoid this topic of conversation lately because for some reason I'm particularly bad at explaining this form of privilege to my peers. I'll explain how unconscious biases affect people on a day to day basis, and point out how, because I'm white, female, and pretty, I don't get followed around in stores or looked at sideways for walking in gated communities. When the grown-ups ask me what I'm doing with my life, they expect an appropriately impressive answer, because coming from my background and going into a minimum-wage job would be unusual. My arguments are always answered with denial that racism exists in America on a significant level. I try to explain that the point has been missed, and go about it a gentler way, but I seem to end up banging my head against a wall. The basic premise, that every human is ethnocentric to some extent, is somehow very difficult to grasp.

That rant was to explain how excited I was to have a three-hour drunken conversation about the origins of privilege in our society the other night. It was awesome. There was lots of gesturing and banging on the table for emphasis, and even though it was the antrho major and the history buff driving it, there were always two or three people cycling through, listening intently and interjecting from time to time. I even learned a few things. I love the parties I go to. Point: don't give up man, there's hope.