Are Children more powerful then adults?

[Brass Bell Doll]

Ishtar Shakti,
Have you by chance read the Ringing Cedar books?  

[Ishtar Shakti]

Brass Bell Doll

Ishtar Shakti,
Have you by chance read the Ringing Cedar books?

No... what are they?  

[Ishtar Shakti]

Yanueh

Another thing he often does is give is kids answers that are obviously baloney so they'll get used to the idea that "authority" figures are not infallible.

Thats a really good idea. I've always thought it was bad to build up false expectations of authority. I mean governments and parents aren't always going to be right and children really should learn that.

Its also sad those defining moments when you realize it was just an illusion  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Ishtar Shakti

No... what are they?

It's a series of books, some of which describe very similar beliefs about children upbringing.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

Brass Bell Doll

Ishtar Shakti

No... what are they?

It's a series of books, some of which describe very similar beliefs about children upbringing.

I'll have to look into them when I have some extra money  

[Brass Bell Doll]

It's possible to find the books at the local library as well.

Ishtar Shakti

In the other post I wrote I went into how they could be cruel but it is more that usually if the intention is not there I would not consider that cruelty.

I feel that intention doesn't always mitigate the effect.

Perhaps the intention of a child biting her sister is to get her doll back, but that doesn't change how she is using violence to serve a selfish end, even if she is acting within what her instincts instruct her to do.

Ishtar Shakti

What I see on a day to day basis I would not consider cruelty. Especially when the person does not have a concept of others pain. Cruelty as well as empathy relies on the ability to recognize someone as another being. Children haven't learned this yet.

I feel this isn't correct, since I think cruelty exists because they don't recognize someone as another being.

Ishtar Shakti

I am not trying to romanticize them. They Are innocent and they do have potential... (in my view) past lives nature and nurture may limit potential and affect it and redirect it. Innocence is a lack of knowledge or awareness. As a person develops this is something inherently lost. If they act they cannot process the consequences and thus are not culpable.

I feel this is confusing innocence with justification. Innocence is really a state of simply not participating in cruel or unacceptable behavior. Children and adults can justify cruelty, but I feel to confuse this with innocence is to muddle the essence of innocence.

Ishtar Shakti

I know not what I Do. That is the definition of innocence...

I feel this isn't the case. In a very practical fashion, people are not innocent of manslaughter simply because they got behind the wheel intoxicated when they struck the other vehicle.

I also feel that children can suggest that they did not think about how their actions would effect others, but that is not the same as being unable to think about others and that has a great deal to do with innocence. I feel that empathy is both learned, and chosen.

I feel that people act without empathy as adults sometimes because they were not taught empathy, other times because they choose to ignore their empathy for another because it threatens their idealized understanding of themselves.

I feel that when we see this in children, it is often dismissed as childishness, but at the same time- there are amazing programs that even the Dali Lama has commented on that explore empathy within childhood. We still see children acting by ignoring their empathy to get the results they desire.

Ishtar Shakti

The second a child starts learning their slate isn't clean thus they can never truly be innocent again. Not completely. It depends the age and development of the child how innocent they are.

I do not feel this is the case, since I feel that the description of innocence you mention doesn't address the child's actual experience. I feel a child can be innocent without being perfect.

Ishtar Shakti

Selfish and egotistical seems a better over all adjective then cruel as children usually know not what they do is wrong or causes pain. The second they do understand That is when they are cruel. Intentional.

I feel that suggesting that these are distinct concepts does a disservice to children and their developmental stages because it assumes that their choice to ignore the effects that their selfishness has on others is unrealistic.

I feel we can agree that one of the first things children learn is the relationship between body language and facial expressions and feelings. In the Uni course I took, one of the explanations of over-expression in children was this understanding. The visual cues are there, and some children choose to respond to them where others choose not to.

Ishtar Shakti

It more has to do with trying to understand how people think over all and the amount of information that is lost and stored is important for understanding how people think and develop schema's All units of memory and information processing are linked so they work in tandem. This constant sifting of information and reliance on schema's and schema creation recall reliance in order to grasp broader and more complex subjects.
It was more to illustrate the limits of memory and the necessity of schema's

I feel that it didn't do a sufficient job, since it doesn't really address the limits of memory. I feel there is a demonstrable difference between memory and it's relation with factual data and how we interpret that data.

Ishtar Shakti

Hmmm.... I actually don't think I have categorized you as anything accept an adult who most likely has a working concept of the world. You have left the developmental stages. I was more talking about people that I have known who have psychological issues. Most of the time it is at the root some set way of percieving the world which is rigid that they cling to even though it goes against logic or outside evidence. Most adults though do have a rigid schema or two which is deeply rooted in some sort of belief system in which case they do not go into a deeper, or want to, understand the concept in any way other then the way they already do.

And I feel that this expresses itself in posts where other's positions are not considered because of established schemas that have been presented as they relate to concepts of innocence, adult, child, memory, world perceptions, cruelty and other concepts.

I feel by reading the posts that there is no evaluation of the information being presented, no listening, but instead reactive justifications for established schemas when information is presented that contradicts parts of the posts.

Ishtar Shakti

Habituation. Generally the younger a person is the more flexible they are and the less roots it has taken (creating supporting evidence or furthering knowledge based on suppositions which then reinforce the supposition)

I feel this is an inaccurate statement, since it only uses age as a gauge. Other factors greatly contribute to how flexible someone is. I feel factors relating to self perception have a far greater influence on flexibility since they account for not only age, but also the personal development and the relationship with the ego.

I feel that it is the feeling of the threat to the sense of self, not the age, that heightens rigidity. A child with an over-developed ego will react with more rigidity than an adult with a balanced ego.

Ishtar Shakti

This is only explored through getting into very long conversations with people about specific beliefs and is not usually expressed at all in casual conversation unless a person has pervasive ideological perspectives.

While I feel that we can agree it will not always be expressed in casual conversation, I feel that certain parts of casual conversation can allude to deeper patterns to a trained eye.

Ishtar Shakti

Asking her questions is not telling her anything. Its much like therapy... you sometimes give people words which you think they might be trying to use to express their emotions. Thats giving them information... its providing them with a step vs. what I have seen many people do and where in they tell a child something they did was bad. I prefer to tell a child look see that person is hurt? Why would you want to hurt them? Don't you know what hurt was like
Vs. telling a child No we don't do that

I agree. I feel exploring the experience with the child is better than telling them with the notable exception that telling a child to stop may be necessary to prevent a situation from causing further harm.

Ishtar Shakti

I'm pretty sure thats what you are describing as a way to act but the words you are using seem harsh to me concerning the children themselves.

I am sorry the words seem harsh to you. They seem realistic to me, since I feel they balance both the capacity of the child with the intent while not confusing a deliberate selfish action with the lack of awareness.

Ishtar Shakti

I don't believe I would let a child harm another child in front of me. I do believe by doing this I Am limiting the childs development and in some ways preventing them from realizing their own reasons why they shouldn't hurt another child by intercepting them. In such a way I am imposing my beliefs on the child even if it is in what I feel is a constructive manner and I am in some way limiting their development even though I think it is a positive limitation. I don't currently have the self discipline that would be needed to actually Follow that path to the letter. By our existence we impose our desires on others. Its a very hard thing Not to do.

I do not feel this is a limitation in the sense that it developmentally stunts the person, child or otherwise. Instead, I feel that it is a matter of establishing healthy boundaries that a child may choose to ignore.

I feel it is less a matter of limiting them as people, and more a matter of the fact there are limits that exist and it is our job to ensure that the desire to explore the world doesn't lead to us pretending there are not limits and that everything is permissible only for us to find out that the limits are real, no matter how we personally feel about them.

Ishtar Shakti

Its a culture I was not raised in... my parenting skills mostly agree with you. My gut reaction is to correct is to do exactly what your describing but I am aware of the affects this may have pervasively developmentally. It is a limit I would most likely impose because I am convinced it is right and proper but if it is truly right or proper I know that that decision can be found on its own without me imposing my judgments on the child.

I feel this statement is very true, that the decision can be found on it's own. I also feel that the possibility it might be found is different than a child choosing to find it.

I feel there are very real consequences to a lack of guidance, not only for the child that is acting in a selfish way, but for those around them.

Ishtar Shakti

The difference is Telling vs. Saying. The concept is teaching from a passive non intrusive standpoint constantly being willing to provide information and guidance without using coersion or punishment. Its extremely difficult method.

I feel this is fair. But I also feel that in some situations, people confuse punishment with consequence.