Untitled - Because I Don't Even Know if This is Paganism

[Enchantressa]

[Introduction edited.]

Welcome. Thanks for reading in advance, and offering advice if you choose to do so.

Magic. I`m going to put it lightly, when I say most of my daily thoughts center around magic when they`re not centered around my close friends and their issues. Usually, these are thoughts of instant magics - y`know, the kind you read about in `fantasy` books. Those sort of other world magics, or ones somehow kept secret but are used to transform or truly impact immediately. Now, I won`t lie, this is always what I have dreamed of. Magical powers. I suppose there are a few reasons.

1. The camaraderie and ability to have something visible - if not material - that others do not. I feel so different - but not in a bad way. Not in a way that means I should live where others don`t but...
2. Defense and the ability to create a real impact when others say I can`t.
3. Creation of a life that is something...not simple, but not complicated. I would say energetic and innocent, perhaps?

I came off sounding rather insecure there. Hm. I assure you, I lead multiple groups and am loudly outspoken as a leader amongst people.

Now, I`ve quietly, and to myself I have studied off and on, where only myself can find out, about what I have come to look at as `Pagan-Witchcraft`. I apologize if those are improper terms. But what I have gleaned from this is not only the final confirmation I don`t even know if I needed that there is always a way for my so-called `magical life` to be truly mine. I have also discovered that...well, while such a practice of Wicca or similar is only partially what I have been looking for. The power threads running through everything, the acceptance of magic existence, the creatures, the higher powers. All are things I have been searching for as long as I can remember. Every time I spend any small moments reading or looking amongst witchcraft, I feel so drawn its unbelievable.

But what holds me back is the fact I know that what I search for now, is different. The power I am drawn to, and can feel humming now and then - but is it product of my own imagination?) - is a visual and sudden force, in addition to a quiet, overtime one. The magical existence is seeing both types, and denying nothing its existence, everything came from somewhere, and once it has been created, well, I believe/know that somewhere something very similar or near so exists. The magical creatures and other worlds shown most plainly in what I`ve read about astral planes and how beings can sort of...appear here, is different from my -knowing- that they can occur here as firm and real as you and I. They could live on Earth for as long as they pleased, not just as projections. (Whether they`d want to...hm.) I also have that belief/knowing that I could go elsewhere too, if I could just find the way. Finally, higher powers - Lord and Lady, perhaps at general level for me, though I feel more like there would be beings that are all powerful, that all pantheons exist, and are their own beings. While this power would all be in their domain, and they should be respected for it, and I do believe they should have the recognition...I don`t think that said magical powers or creatures are necessarily only derived from their gifts...

I`ve read so much about what I want being `fluffy bunny` beliefs.

And I`ve never witnessed anything - psychic, mythical creature, or otherwise - to have proof for any of it. I`ve never managed to do anything, even when that sort of `thrum` of energy flows strongly. I've had a few things happen - but I can't decide if I believe in coincidences or not. Small things like guessing answers of names that I couldn't know, or suddenly knowing when the weather is about to change, etc.

But I can`t turn away. Ever. I`ve tried in a few dark nights where I`ve thought maybe I should just go be a bookworm of science or what have you and just deny its smallest chances of existing, for the torture it was to have that `know/belief` it was, but not being witness or influence to it.

Anyways. I guess I just felt like writing this out, seeing what people have to say about it. Maybe I`ll try and keep a journal of various dreams - as I have plenty of those - and what I learn. Where this will take me, I don`t know.



I am aware that this is about to ripped apart. I welcome it, gives me even more facets to look at.

After this basic 'introduction' of sorts has run its course, or has been led off onto a more specific leg of 'what I think or believe or know', I'll be happy to expand myself too. I barely knew where to start with this! Heh....  

[TeaDidikai]

Enchantressa

Welcome. I`m pretty sure I`ll be called a good couple of names for this entry, but hey, I`m pretty used to that - maybe you`ll discover why while reading. I doubt any of them will change my mind, insults go half as far as well aimed advice and spinning words of explanation.

That introduction reads as baiting, just so you know.

What makes you think that the numerous members of a guild would suddenly disregard their word and flame you?

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Magic. I`m going to put it lightly, when I say most of my daily thoughts center around magic when they`re not centered around my close friends and their issues. Usually, these are thoughts of instant magics - y`know, the kind you read about in `fantasy` books. Those sort of other world magics, or ones somehow kept secret but are used to transform or truly impact immediately. Now, I won`t lie, this is always what I have dreamed of. Magical powers. I suppose there are a few reasons.

1. The camaraderie and ability to have something visible - if not material - that others do not. I feel so different - but not in a bad way. Not in a way that means I should live where others don`t but...
2. Defense and the ability to create a real impact when others say I can`t.
3. Creation of a life that is something...not simple, but not complicated. I would say energetic and innocent, perhaps?

I came off sounding rather insecure there. Hm. I assure you, I lead multiple groups and am loudly outspoken as a leader amongst people.

You did come off sounding insecure. Also, being a leader doesn't make you not insecure, so your attempts to persuade us you aren't insecure kinda flopped.

Now, this is likely a byproduct of the development of autonomy. We get that a lot around here.

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Now, I`ve quietly, and to myself I have studied off and on, where only myself can find out, about what I have come to look at as `Pagan-Witchcraft`. I apologize if those are improper terms. But what I have gleaned from this is not only the final confirmation I don`t even know if I needed that there is always a way for my so-called `magical life` to be truly mine.

Pagan witchcraft is an exceptionally broad term. My suspicion is that your scope is narrower than that. When you say you have studied on and off, what did you read?

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I have also discovered that...well, while such a practice of Wicca or similar is only partially what I have been looking for.

What part of serving the Lord and Lady of the isles meets what you are looking for?

Quote:

The power threads running through everything, the acceptance of magic existence, the creatures, the higher powers. All are things I have been searching for as long as I can remember. Every time I spend any small moments reading or looking amongst witchcraft, I feel so drawn its unbelievable.

The desire to develop autonomy will do that.

Quote:

But what holds me back is the fact I know that what I search for now, is different. The power I am drawn to, and can feel humming now and then - but is it product of my own imagination?) - is a visual and sudden force, in addition to a quiet, overtime one. The magical existence is seeing both types, and denying nothing its existence, everything came from somewhere, and once it has been created, well, I believe/know that somewhere something very similar or near so exists. The magical creatures and other worlds shown most plainly in what I`ve read about astral planes and how beings can sort of...appear here, is different from my -knowing- that they can occur here as firm and real as you and I. They could live on Earth for as long as they pleased, not just as projections. (Whether they`d want to...hm.) I also have that belief/knowing that I could go elsewhere too, if I could just find the way. Finally, higher powers - Lord and Lady, perhaps at general level for me, though I feel more like there would be beings that are all powerful, that all pantheons exist, and are their own beings. While this power would all be in their domain, and they should be respected for it, and I do believe they should have the recognition...I don`t think that said magical powers or creatures are necessarily only derived from their gifts...

Can't make heads or tails of this rant. Please could you rephrase? Perhaps with more organized thoughts and better punctuation so I can actually understand what you are saying?

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I`ve read so much about what I want being `fluffy bunny` beliefs.

How so?

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And I`ve never witnessed anything - psychic, mythical creature, or otherwise - to have proof for any of it. I`ve never managed to do anything, even when that sort of `thrum` of energy flows strongly. I've had a few things happen - but I can't decide if I believe in coincidences or not. Small things like guessing answers of names that I couldn't know, or suddenly knowing when the weather is about to change, etc.

Those are literally coincidences.

Now, how meaningful they are is a different matter all together.

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But I can`t turn away. Ever. I`ve tried in a few dark nights where I`ve thought maybe I should just go be a bookworm of science or what have you and just deny its smallest chances of existing, for the torture it was to have that `know/belief` it was, but not being witness or influence to it.

The drive is understandable, even if I think the motivation isn't as healthy as it could be.

Quote:

Anyways. I guess I just felt like writing this out, seeing what people have to say about it. Maybe I`ll try and keep a journal of various dreams - as I have plenty of those - and what I learn. Where this will take me, I don`t know.



I am aware that this is about to ripped apart. I welcome it, gives me even more facets to look at.

After this basic 'introduction' of sorts has run its course, or has been led off onto a more specific leg of 'what I think or believe or know', I'll be happy to expand myself too. I barely knew where to start with this! Heh....

Out of this whole post, this last part is what gives me the most hope for you.  

[TeaDidikai]

Last point:
This is largely not inherently paganism. It's not divorced from the Abrahamic deity in and of itself.  

[Enchantressa]

Quote:

That introduction reads as baiting, just so you know.

What makes you think that the numerous members of a guild would suddenly disregard their word and flame you?

I'll change the introduction as soon as this is posted. What leads me to believe this is because I am rather used to words meaning nothing - taking the word of people you've never met is a risky endeavor from what I've seen. The best I thought I could do was put all my thoughts out as plainly as I could manage, and see where it would lead. More so, its much like the disclaimer at the bottom, saying that I am expecting ripping, and so if there were any qualms anyone had about doing so, its giving them the go ahead.

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You did come off sounding insecure. Also, being a leader doesn't make you not insecure, so your attempts to persuade us you aren't insecure kinda flopped.

Now, this is likely a byproduct of the development of autonomy. We get that a lot around here.

Okay. What I thought I meant to say there was more so that just because I don't understand is not preventing me from still moving forward. In security often makes people seem to stop and bumble about in circles - rather than saying, 'I'll figure it out, keep moving.'

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Pagan witchcraft is an exceptionally broad term. My suspicion is that your scope is narrower than that. When you say you have studied on and off, what did you read?

I have no idea where to begin listing what I have read. Whatever one can find in the first couple pages of a google search on magic and witchcraft, and some of the related sites those referred to, and what those sites referred to. Its patchy at best. Would you like me to lay out what I think I know about what I've read?

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What part of serving the Lord and Lady of the isles meets what you are looking for?

Well, this one is hard to explain. I don't think its so much the servitude that is appealing - but the acknowledgment that there is more powerful beings watching over, or perhaps controlling and just -watching- the forces in the world. Not that they, however, are protecting anything though. The magic and energy I have that knowing/belief exists is the other drive - which, being that the large part of Wicca is the religious, brings me away from feeling that is my place. Wicca, as I have discovered, is the largely the worship of the Lord and Lady. Not what I set out to find.

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The desire to develop autonomy will do that.

Which is why I'm hoping I will either find this is the right place or path for me, or debunk it to over-strengthened dreams.

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Can't make heads or tails of this rant. Please could you rephrase? Perhaps with more organized thoughts and better punctuation so I can actually understand what you are saying?

The basic point is that while threads of what I am looking for, and what I have this know/belief to be true I just would like to truly be apart of is present in witchcraft, or from what I have read of paganism in general in what I feel is a diluted form.

For instance, the idea of dragons existing BUT they are only able to be spirits with strong influence in our world. I have come to believe/know that they are physically true in our world, though they may quite likely possess their own world too. Which, by extension, given the proper procedures or ways, something from Earth could exist in too.

Does that at least partially explain what I meant? There are two other examples of my issues of belief in that paragraph, but I believe just one represents the differences I am attempting to traverse to make a bridge - or, as the case may be in the end, prove that these are two separate roads all together.

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How so?

The various sites I read seem to say that anyone brought to the craft for the magical abilities or powers, especially by dreams of fantasy, where this is the main thing they seek, is a 'fluffy bunny'. I line up like a key, as far as I can tell. But I don't feel like a pretender, especially trying to discover as I am right now.

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Those are literally coincidences.

Now, how meaningful they are is a different matter all together.

Thanks for the first clarification, and the second is something I'll hopefully find out.

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Last point:
This is largely not inherently paganism. It's not divorced from the Abrahamic deity in and of itself.

I expected it would not be exactly paganism. The question is, is this guild and reading things relating to paganism going to be helpful to me discovering anything.  

[TeaDidikai]

Enchantressa

I'll change the introduction as soon as this is posted.

Sounds good.

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What leads me to believe this is because I am rather used to words meaning nothing - taking the word of people you've never met is a risky endeavor from what I've seen.

Not supposed to simply take folks words for it. You're supposed to investigate and evaluate. It's part of being responsible. 3nodding

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Okay. What I thought I meant to say there was more so that just because I don't understand is not preventing me from still moving forward. In security often makes people seem to stop and bumble about in circles - rather than saying, 'I'll figure it out, keep moving.'

This is much clearer.

I still have mild concerns about motivations and the like, but other than that, I think the dialogue is making progress.

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I have no idea where to begin listing what I have read. Whatever one can find in the first couple pages of a google search on magic and witchcraft, and some of the related sites those referred to, and what those sites referred to. Its patchy at best. Would you like me to lay out what I think I know about what I've read?

That would help a great deal!

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Well, this one is hard to explain. I don't think its so much the servitude that is appealing - but the acknowledgment that there is more powerful beings watching over, or perhaps controlling and just -watching- the forces in the world. Not that they, however, are protecting anything though.

The Wica are all about serving their gods through Orthopraxy. Which is fine. It also means the cult isn't for you. Which is also fine.

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The magic and energy I have that knowing/belief exists is the other drive - which, being that the large part of Wicca is the religious, brings me away from feeling that is my place. Wicca, as I have discovered, is the largely the worship of the Lord and Lady. Not what I set out to find.

Again, I don't think what you're thinking is Wica is actually Wica.

I think you're likely talking about the more Eclectic Neopagan traditions like Standing Stone.

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Which is why I'm hoping I will either find this is the right place or path for me, or debunk it to over-strengthened dreams.

Healthy attitude to have. Also, developing autonomy isn't a bad thing. It's a part of growing up. The trick is to do it the right way, and to fix any mistakes you make along the way.

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For instance, the idea of dragons existing BUT they are only able to be spirits with strong influence in our world. I have come to believe/know that they are physically true in our world, though they may quite likely possess their own world too. Which, by extension, given the proper procedures or ways, something from Earth could exist in too.

Does that at least partially explain what I meant? There are two other examples of my issues of belief in that paragraph, but I believe just one represents the differences I am attempting to traverse to make a bridge - or, as the case may be in the end, prove that these are two separate roads all together.

Makes some sense.

It's rather vague though. Let me rephrase it and see if we're on the same page.

Mythological creatures exist. They exist in non-corporeal reality, and can influence our world.

Are you also saying that a dragon can become corporeal?

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The various sites I read seem to say that anyone brought to the craft for the magical abilities or powers, especially by dreams of fantasy, where this is the main thing they seek, is a 'fluffy bunny'. I line up like a key, as far as I can tell. But I don't feel like a pretender, especially trying to discover as I am right now.

Fluffy Bunny is someone who is willfully ignorant.

The means by which you are introduced to a concept isn't inherently fluffy. Hell... I know a few people here who think Terry Pratchett's understanding of magic is amazing. He writes fantasy novels.

Headology? ******** fantastic. Does that make me fluffy? No. If I claimed that there was an ancient witch named Granny Weatherwax who transmitted her secrets about Headology to Terry Pratchett and insisted this was true despite the fact we don't live on the Discworld and Terry Pratchett himself says no such thing happened, that would make me a fluff.

Another current example in the guild is Relativism. There is proof that Relativism is internally inconsistent and logically false.
The only response to this proof amounts to "La la la.. I can't hear you!"

That's fluff. Hell, if they maintained their belief and attempted to logically counter the proof, I'd even give them the benefit of the doubt and say they aren't fluffy, but merely mistaken. But this isn't the case.

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Thanks for the first clarification, and the second is something I'll hopefully find out.

Somewhere around here is a thread about Hoshit moments. Maybe others experiences can provide a guideline?

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I expected it would not be exactly paganism. The question is, is this guild and reading things relating to paganism going to be helpful to me discovering anything.

This guild is largely more about methodology relating to paganism, than paganism itself. Hence why we have so many Christians running around.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

I think perhaps your reason for wanting to know about magic may be a bit misplaced.

Under my thought system Magic is a natural state. What your desiring you already have to some degree just not the degree that you would want.

What you would gain would in no way make you special. Real magic comes with the heavy burden of being disillusioned and most of the people I know who chase their dreams will see their dreams but their dreams will have no influence. You would have to understand the real nature of limitations... and failing when it comes down to something real can be a burden in and of itself.

While it has given me the ability to protect others it has also put others in a different sort of danger. Spirits are much like people without the leash that their bodies create. The anger the love the hate all of it manifests itself... your emotions if not properly controlled will also manifest themselves and can cause harm.

While ability if fully developed Will allow you to do things which others can not you would first understand how to do those things. Its much like any branch of study, education is a tool. If you learn how to do these things many times there is a much easier more practical way that you can do so without magic.

The only reason I have found that people actually need to learn about magic for is if they need to interact with spirits. Or if they are too afraid to talk to live in the real world.

Empathy is a useful tool, but I wouldn't need it if either I could ask people honestly how they felt or if I trusted people enough to believe them when they tell me how they feel.
Empathy also requires alot of work, has many draw backs, and can be dangerous if people are not in control of their own wills. It exposes you to information you may be better off without knowing.

Some of the magical creatures and places that you have heard about have come from people who have not mastered themselves and thus have not mastered their sight. I do not know what worlds or creatures you have been exposed to but I would make a bet that the people seeing these things did not see them clearly. Creatures or spirits also aren't always pure or innocent. They have desires and motives like anyone else and while some are kind at nature others are not.

They have more tricks to affect your perception then most people give them credit for. Some of them have skills. To truly see you would also have to make sure that you are not being influenced by another, to see clearly without bias to see it for what it is. Its a hard path not many would ever want to take...

And while many other paths exist... this is one that requires no gods or goddess just a deep level of understanding. Science shouldn't be something you should shy away from. Its something you should use and keep as an ever present witness to avoid tricking yourself. Think about How magic could exist. How it manifests.

I have seen things, but do not... just believe things that people say. Find ways to Test what they say. Find ways to test what you feel. Find other people who practice and see if you can Sense what they are trying to do. Try to Test your guesses and while it might be difficult... remember and keep track of your every emotion, the emotions and thoughts and feelings of others.

Keep track of everything because everything is important. Everything is relevant and as I am fond to say everything has a reason. Thus you can track and follow information and peice the world together bit by bit.

Science history... all information is Relevant. Just try to understand the context of why the people themselves are seeing what they are seeing, writing what they are writing.

Also remember while things may be Possible they may also be Difficult. Difficult to the point that it is fairly impossible. Try to figure out what might be easy... and look to what Is easy.  

[Tikat]

Ishtar Shakti

I think perhaps your reason for wanting to know about magic may be a bit misplaced.

How is a possible for someone who believes in Relativism to argue that someone's position is misplaced?

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What you would gain would in no way make you special. Real magic comes with the heavy burden of being disillusioned and most of the people I know who chase their dreams will see their dreams but their dreams will have no influence. You would have to understand the real nature of limitations... and failing when it comes down to something real can be a burden in and of itself.

Why would it not make them special? If it is a subjective feeling, validation could engender a feeling of specialness.

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While it has given me the ability to protect others it has also put others in a different sort of danger. Spirits are much like people without the leash that their bodies create. The anger the love the hate all of it manifests itself... your emotions if not properly controlled will also manifest themselves and can cause harm.

But by your reasoning, the individual is the one best suited to determine if there is harm.

Since relativism is the framework under which you make assumptions, how are you able to judge if it is harm?

There cannot be an objective normal, merely a personal normal, and thus even if something causes what seems to be a dysfunction to you, it may be a benefit to them.

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The only reason I have found that people actually need to learn about magic for is if they need to interact with spirits. Or if they are too afraid to talk to live in the real world.

Could not those people who you mentioned in other threads, through learning to ground or draw in their energy, be less likely to inadvertantly offend people such as yourself?

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Empathy is a useful tool, but I wouldn't need it if either I could ask people honestly how they felt or if I trusted people enough to believe them when they tell me how they feel.

Does not your lack of trust indicate that there is a breakdown in your ability to understand others?

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Some of the magical creatures and places that you have heard about have come from people who have not mastered themselves and thus have not mastered their sight. I do not know what worlds or creatures you have been exposed to but I would make a bet that the people seeing these things did not see them clearly. Creatures or spirits also aren't always pure or innocent. They have desires and motives like anyone else and while some are kind at nature others are not.

By what basis are you able to declare others truths false?

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They have more tricks to affect your perception then most people give them credit for. Some of them have skills. To truly see you would also have to make sure that you are not being influenced by another, to see clearly without bias to see it for what it is. Its a hard path not many would ever want to take...

And while many other paths exist... this is one that requires no gods or goddess just a deep level of understanding. Science shouldn't be something you should shy away from. Its something you should use and keep as an ever present witness to avoid tricking yourself. Think about How magic could exist. How it manifests.

I have seen things, but do not... just believe things that people say. Find ways to Test what they say. Find ways to test what you feel. Find other people who practice and see if you can Sense what they are trying to do. Try to Test your guesses and while it might be difficult... remember and keep track of your every emotion, the emotions and thoughts and feelings of others.

Keep track of everything because everything is important. Everything is relevant and as I am fond to say everything has a reason. Thus you can track and follow information and peice the world together bit by bit.

Science history... all information is Relevant. Just try to understand the context of why the people themselves are seeing what they are seeing, writing what they are writing.

Also remember while things may be Possible they may also be Difficult. Difficult to the point that it is fairly impossible. Try to figure out what might be easy... and look to what Is easy.

At this point I found it unfathomable for someone who holds your perspective to say any of this. Could you please explain how it is possible for you to present objective positions while it is not possible for those you speak to do the same?