Welcome to the Rehab Center

[Calelith]

winksniper

Calelith

What a smart 15 year old
rolleyes

>>
Subtle.

I wasn't even trying
stare

 

[Calelith]

Wow coding fail?

 

[AniMajor]

I don't know what is wrong, but when I first viewed the page, Aino and Calelith were up at the top together, and it looked like they were collaborating on a post. In a way, it was cute.  

[Calelith]

I dunno if I should be creeped out, glad, or just a bit shocked at that comment AniMajor.

 

[Aino Ailill]

AniMajor

I don't know what is wrong, but when I first viewed the page, Aino and Calelith were up at the top together, and it looked like they were collaborating on a post. In a way, it was cute.

First viewed? How do you make it stop? gonk

Edit: Nvm, I did it. redface I suppose I'll post in smaller bits.

Also, that should totes. be an option. ninja  

[Aino Ailill]

'Kay...so missing a single quotation mark can apparently make everything go wonky. surprised .O:

winksniper

Firstly, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth. Most of the things you assumed I was trying to get at were never the implication.
Second, I'm not looking for a debate. The only reason I'm here is to learn, not for you to test how much I know.

How do you expect us to be able to help you learn and grow without us knowing how much it is that you know? How do you expect to be able to grow and be intellectually honest in whatever tradition you choose (or are chosen for) without testing motivations and conclusion?

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

I dislike a lot of things about it. For one thing, I don't (And honestly, never have) feel comfortable being in Church or any similar situation because 1) I find it boring and 2) it's just not for me.

What traditions outside of the denomination of your upbringing have you participated in?

I've participated in other denominations of Christianity, but the one that I've probably participated in most outside of my own is Catholicism, thanks to my church-going friends.

You said you disliked Christianity. One reason given is that it is boring. With such limited experience, how do justify saying this? Why is it boring? Why is it not the right fit for you? It, not the denomination you were raised in or the views espoused by your father.

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

Being raised Christian, I feel it's safe to say that most Christians (The ones I know (Which is a whole side of a family and their friends, etc. Obviously not all) are very conservative and generally close-minded.

This is known as a biased sample. Expecting your limited experience to address the whole of Christendom is unrealistic.

Then you get into the problem that so what if a majority behaves a certain way. That doesn't mean that's the right way.

Like I said, most Christians that I know of. Never did I say ALL CHRISTIANS ARE THIS WAY.

Take a deep breath and calm down. You are not being attacked.

1) You did, indeed, note that your experiences are not universal. Never-the-less, you seem to be applying them universally in giving the close-mindedness of Christians as a reason to dislike Christianity.

2) You have overlooked a valid point of Tea's. "o what if a majority behaves a certain way. That doesn't mean that's the right way."

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

For example, my dad and I recently had a very heated discussion about whether homosexuality is "right" or "wrong" (actually, it was more like me trying to tell him he had no right saying his way of life was any "better" than anyone else's).

So you approached your father with a lack of respect and disregard for his position...?

Actually no, that's not how it happened since he was judging me for my taste of friends. You really don't know my father. ><

Why do you feel that a person hasn't the 'right' to tell another that the person's way of life is superior?

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

Not surprisingly, his only defense was "the Bible says it's condemned." Even as I tried to tell him that most people who aren't Christian don't read the Bible and therefore those rules don't necessarily apply to them, it was still "wrong to be gay".

The Bible talks about sex outside of marriage as a distraction from service to their god.

Perhaps instead of tarring all Christians with your resentment for your father, you could give it an honest exploration. We have a couple infodumps on the subject after all.

I've given Christianity honest exploration. I honestly did. I studied it, got little brochures and CD packs and read bits of the Bible and went to kids Bible websites (I was like 12/13-ish) and researched a lot of it similar to how I am studying Paganism. And I devoted myself to it, as well.

Are you certain that what you got out of this, at 12/13ish, is accurate?

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

I, myself, am a very very open minded individual,

I never trust people who have to tell me how open minded they are- especially after they denounce others positions through ignorance and bias.

TeaDidikai

winksniper

and I would like something that doesn't condemn half of my interests and that doesn't allow people to get away with anything by saying "it was the devil"

So far, you haven't excluded Christendom from possible paths. Just a specific denomination.

I haven't excluded Christianity entirely simply because I will always have a connection to it because it was what I was raised with. But Paganism speaks a lot louder to me.

'Pagan' is an umbrella term used to refer to all religions that are not an Abrahamic faith. As such, this appealing to you is rather like saying 'Anything but Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.' As such, it seems more like you are running from Christianity than it is like you are embracing a new path.

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

Also, scare tactics < no scare tactics.

Wait- threatening people with the Hell of Christians the way the Wica do is considered not to be a scare tactic because the Wica do it?

Never said that.

I think Tea made note of this to inform you that scare tactics is not a trait reserved for Christianity. The religion you express an interest in gives out threats as well, and in fact threatens with the Hell of the Christians.

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

And I think the turning point in my life for me to reconsider my religion was in 2008 when on a church trip to New York. My given sect of Christianity is Pentecostal, and one of their main beliefs is that you have to be, I dunno, possessed by the Holy Ghost. Which is something I've feared, seeing it happen in churches and the people quiver and shake and speak in tongues... it was very frightful. So this one night at church they were lining up everyone to perform the ritual (so to speak). I was terrified as I stood at the back of the line. My two cousins, who went to church a whole hell of a lot more often than me, were also scared. Once it was out turn, and the three of us were on the ground, crying, I looked and saw them both experience what everyone else had gone through (although they both deny it). And I waited. And prayed. And waited. And shook and cried and everything, and nothing happened. Of course, that probably doesn't mean anything but for me it was like, "Maybe this isn't for me."

Based on your words, I would hypothesize that this is actually a function of your Pride baring your access to the gifts.

Yeah, that's how they described it. "You must be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost in order to get into Heaven." What about the millions of people who have never had that happen to them...?

Err...non-sequitor?

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

I want to dedicate myself by summer because I will have a ton of free time to practice and I can celebrate the solstice. I can be out later at night without being cold and I would really like to try some sort of moon ritual (you can see how novice I am).

Why would celebrating the solstice matter to you?

At this point, celebrating the solstice doesn't mean much. But the solstice to me is a good time frame to get enough information to at least make a decision on what to do.

So, you being able to celebrate the solstice has nothing to do with why you want to be done by Summer? Why did you say it did? And why does it seem like a good time-frame, beyond the free-time you'll have?

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

I want to dedicate myself to the religion of Wicca as much as possible.

How do you feel about a god beating the goddess to make her love him?

You have made the decision to dedicate yourself to a religion with little knowledge about it. Why? What is it about the fertility cult that attracts you?

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

Of course, the whole fertility part aside, I'd have to practice mostly in secrecy.

So you think it is ethical for you to abuse the hospitality of your parents?
People who sacrifice for you?

I'm not abusing any hospitality under the roof of my parents, actually. Just because they don't know I'm studying Paganism doesn't mean that I'm abusing their hospitality. I'm not running away in the middle of the night or cursing their love. I'm grateful for everything they've given me, even if that in part is a broken household (which, to me, is almost beneficial. My mother (who I currently live with) is a lot more liberal and open minded religion-wise than my father, so even if she did know what I was studying, she'd definitely support me.) It's not like I'm gonna sneak out in the middle of the night to go and do magic with some coven or something, no. Absolutely not. What I meant by "secrecy" was more or less "without making it openly known". ><

I have nothing to say.

winksniper

TeaDidikai

winksniper

I've been raised with religion and my mind just kinda... works that way so since at this point I'm sure I probably won't go back to Christianity in full, and I do not want to be Atheist, I wouldn't want to wait 3 more years until I can officially become Wiccan.

Your posts reflect someone who isn't Seeking a new path, but is running away from an old one in order to develop autonomy.

That's cool. It's a natural part of growing up. But are you prepared to worship a god of death who beats his consort?
Are you prepared to suffer the generational curses and Hell for breaking your relationship with the god of Yeshua?
Are you prepared to be an oathbreaker and a manipulator while under your parent's roof?

no, I am not a manipulator or oathbreaker. I really don't know where you got that from.

Through deliberately keeping your activities secret, you are manipulating your parents actions. In-so-far as that, I can see the accusation of 'manipulator.'

If you ever promised yourself, or were promised by your parents, to YHWH, and you leave Him to worship other gods, then you are an Oath Breaker.

I was not baptized at infancy. However, when I was going through a rough patch, I asked my grandmother to baptize me. I don't know any lay person has the authority to do so. If they do, then I might be considered an Oathbreaker.  

[AniMajor]

Calelith

I dunno if I should be creeped out, glad, or just a bit shocked at that comment AniMajor.

It was cute in the way of "Look, we wrote this together!" I didn't mean anything weird by it.

It should totally be an option.  

[rmcdra]

Aino Ailill

Through deliberately keeping your activities secret, you are manipulating your parents actions. In-so-far as that, I can see the accusation of 'manipulator.'

If you ever promised yourself, or were promised by your parents, to YHWH, and you leave Him to worship other gods, then you are an Oath Breaker.

I was not baptized at infancy. However, when I was going through a rough patch, I asked my grandmother to baptize me. I don't know any lay person has the authority to do so. If they do, then I might be considered an Oathbreaker.

From how I understand it baptism is valid from any person as long as it's done with the correct intention and the correct Trinitarian formula. But the requirements for baptism vary from denomination.  

[TeaDidikai]

winksniper

Firstly, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth.

I didn't have to put words in your mouth. You said more than enough.

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Second, I'm not looking for a debate. The only reason I'm here is to learn, not for you to test how much I know.

Congrats. Consider this an education in why you should critically examine your own bigotry.

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I've participated in other denominations of Christianity, but the one that I've probably participated in most outside of my own is Catholicism, thanks to my church-going friends.

Cool.
Which others have you participated in?
Which traditions that openly identify as liberal Christian have you participated in?

Quote:

Like I said, most Christians that I know of. Never did I say ALL CHRISTIANS ARE THIS WAY.

But your making judgments about the summation of theology (hence it's rejection rather than further exploration) based on a biased sample.

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Actually no, that's not how it happened since he was judging me for my taste of friends. You really don't know my father. ><

I'm strictly going off what you said. You said

You

my dad and I recently had a very heated discussion about whether homosexuality is "right" or "wrong" (actually, it was more like me trying to tell him he had no right saying his way of life was any "better" than anyone else's

Which pretty much makes you a hypocrite since you would "tell him he had no right to [speak his opinion]" while you're clearly telling him yours.

But then, hypocrisy amongst bigots is pretty common.

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I've given Christianity honest exploration.

Really? And yet you were unaware that Christendom doesn't condemn homosexuals within it's Koine texts?

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I honestly did. I studied it, got little brochures and CD packs and read bits of the Bible and went to kids Bible websites (I was like 12/13-ish) and researched a lot of it similar to how I am studying Paganism. And I devoted myself to it, as well.

Quantity isn't quality.

Also, you looked into it for a couple years? Wow.
I'll point out that your ignorance about the cult you want to join is likely on par with your ignorance of Christendom.

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I haven't excluded Christianity entirely simply because I will always have a connection to it because it was what I was raised with. But Paganism speaks a lot louder to me.

That's impressive, since Paganism isn't a religion.

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Yeah, that's how they described it. "You must be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost in order to get into Heaven." What about the millions of people who have never had that happen to them...?

All of them had according to Scripture.

Hell, even Catholicism says that unbaptized people can enter Heaven. It's part of the Vatican II papers.

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At this point, celebrating the solstice doesn't mean much. But the solstice to me is a good time frame to get enough information to at least make a decision on what to do.

Woot! Six months before you dedicate.
Prey tell, giving your ignorance, do you think you will have the tools to dedicate in six months when people far more educated in the matter than you wait years?

Quote:

I'm not abusing any hospitality under the roof of my parents, actually. Just because they don't know I'm studying Paganism doesn't mean that I'm abusing their hospitality.

You're manipulating your parents by hiding activities that they have a legal right and obligation to prohibit you from engaging in.

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I'm grateful for everything they've given me,

Except your actions show that your gratitude stops at the point where you are told no. After that, all bets are off- and you'll manipulate them in order to get what you want.

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I am not a manipulator or oathbreaker. I really don't know where you got that from.

Oh- you are manipulating them. And you are an oathbreaker. After all, you've rejected your oaths to the god of Yeshua.  

[kyndryana3]

Salutations all smile

Just thought I'd introduce myself. I'm 31 (going on 17 *grin), married with one son. I've been interested in, and reading pretty much anything I can get my hands on, paganism and the occult for just bout 18 years now.

Most of that time has been doing solitary research and practice, though I have a few scattered experience working with others. I haven't lived in an area with an active pagan population in about nine years, and so it has been quite a lonely decade for me (thank the gods for the internet!).

My interests are extremely wide and pretty scattered. I have picked up bits and pieces from a variety of sources, from Wicca to CM. Most of the time I discover practices or ideas that I like and give them a tweak so they work for me.

If I had to describe my personal path (and I do consider it a personal path, as I have never found an existing path that I meshed with enough to consider myself a real follower), it would be that of a seeker. Religiously, I consider myself pagan, I have patron deities and celebrate the Sabbats. Magically, my style is all over the place, extremely dependent on my mood. At the core, I'm a bit of a kitchen witch: I work with what I have at hand, and nothing is too mundane for me to work with. But I also enjoy, from time to time, going with a more elaborate structure.

I am absolutely fascinated by symbols, alphabets and contemplative systems. I love exploring how different things interact and form patterns.

On the greater scheme of morality, I consider myself a follower of what is practical. I don't really think of things in terms of right and wrong, but rather in terms of "what is the price of this action". I fully believe that there are some things that are worth the price, even when it is a heavy one to pay. But I prefer to go in with both eyes open, and not get blindsided by the consequences of my actions because I didn't take the time to consider the outcome.

Well, that's probably enough rambling for an introduction smile

Ky  

[TeaDidikai]

Welcome to the guild.

kyndryana3

Religiously, I consider myself pagan,

But "Pagan" isn't a religion.

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I have patron deities

Cool. Who?

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and celebrate the Sabbats.

Which ones?

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On the greater scheme of morality, I consider myself a follower of what is practical. I don't really think of things in terms of right and wrong, but rather in terms of "what is the price of this action". I fully believe that there are some things that are worth the price, even when it is a heavy one to pay. But I prefer to go in with both eyes open, and not get blindsided by the consequences of my actions because I didn't take the time to consider the outcome.

Does this mean that if someone feels the price of their freedom is worth that of harming your child they're okay?  

[kyndryana3]

TeaDidikai

Welcome to the guild.

kyndryana3

Religiously, I consider myself pagan,

But "Pagan" isn't a religion.

The way I understand it Pagan is sort of an umbrella term for a bunch of different belief systems. Though I don't follow any particular group, I do feel that I fit into the larger category of Pagan...perhaps it would be more appropriate to say I consider myself a pagan.

TeaDidikai

kyndryana3

I have patron deities

Cool. Who?

Freyja and Odin, and I know I am very much still in the process of learning and really getting a good grasp on my personal faith. Faith has been something I have struggled with since grade school. My heart may lead me, but my mind struggles with a lot of the concepts and I am slowly working on piecing things together.

TeaDidikai

kyndryana3

and celebrate the Sabbats.

Which ones?

I originally encountered the Sabbats in "A Witches' Bible" by the Farrar's. I've expanded on the concept since then, and am really interested in the many different cycles that can be expressed throughout the progression of the year (not only the seasonal progression, but some of the God and Goddess interactions: the Sun child being born and growing to adulthood and then being sacrificed, the interaction between the Lord and Lady at different points in the year, the wild hunt). I don't particularly favor any single cultural approach, but enjoy examining how different people celebrate the different festivals and how they interconnect. It's a bit of a hodgepodge, I know, but it seems to work for me.

TeaDidikai

kyndryana3

On the greater scheme of morality, I consider myself a follower of what is practical. I don't really think of things in terms of right and wrong, but rather in terms of "what is the price of this action". I fully believe that there are some things that are worth the price, even when it is a heavy one to pay. But I prefer to go in with both eyes open, and not get blindsided by the consequences of my actions because I didn't take the time to consider the outcome.

Does this mean that if someone feels the price of their freedom is worth that of harming your child they're okay?

I wouldn't probably use the word okay. I think that morality is a very complex situation. To use your example of a person who feels the price of their freedom is worth that of harming my child, if my son were to keep another person against their will, and they harmed him to be free of him, then I might feel they were justified in their actions (I do think that sometimes, we exhaust all other options, and the less savory ones are the only ones left).

The price of one's actions also includes any social, legal or emotional repercussions from what we do. If I feel threatened by another person enough that I feel the only course of action for me involves causing them physical harm, I should expect to deal with the consequences. I might be facing legal issues depending on the circumstances. I might feel emotionally traumatized (depending on the nature of the harm I caused). That person might be driven over the edge by my actions and become more violent towards me. All these things, I should be prepared to deal with if I feel that my actions are justified. I shouldn't take my action and then complain because I got arrested, because my hand hurts from punching a guy or because he set my car on fire because I broke his nose.

Hey, I got the quoting thing right! smile  

[TeaDidikai]

kyndryana3

The way I understand it Pagan is sort of an umbrella term for a bunch of different belief systems. Though I don't follow any particular group, I do feel that I fit into the larger category of Pagan...perhaps it would be more appropriate to say I consider myself a pagan.

The problem that I have is the gap between the assumption that you could categorize your religion as an umbrella term.

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Freyja and Odin, and I know I am very much still in the process of learning and really getting a good grasp on my personal faith. Faith has been something I have struggled with since grade school. My heart may lead me, but my mind struggles with a lot of the concepts and I am slowly working on piecing things together.

Why are you setting these two up as polar opposites? And why limit the sum of the Aesir and Vanir to these two to begin with?

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I originally encountered the Sabbats in "A Witches' Bible" by the Farrar's. I've expanded on the concept since then, and am really interested in the many different cycles that can be expressed throughout the progression of the year (not only the seasonal progression, but some of the God and Goddess interactions: the Sun child being born and growing to adulthood and then being sacrificed, the interaction between the Lord and Lady at different points in the year, the wild hunt). I don't particularly favor any single cultural approach, but enjoy examining how different people celebrate the different festivals and how they interconnect. It's a bit of a hodgepodge, I know, but it seems to work for me.

You're not contextualizing Odin and Freya in this are you?

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I wouldn't probably use the word okay. I think that morality is a very complex situation. To use your example of a person who feels the price of their freedom is worth that of harming my child, if my son were to keep another person against their will, and they harmed him to be free of him, then I might feel they were justified in their actions (I do think that sometimes, we exhaust all other options, and the less savory ones are the only ones left).

The price of one's actions also includes any social, legal or emotional repercussions from what we do. If I feel threatened by another person enough that I feel the only course of action for me involves causing them physical harm, I should expect to deal with the consequences. I might be facing legal issues depending on the circumstances. I might feel emotionally traumatized (depending on the nature of the harm I caused). That person might be driven over the edge by my actions and become more violent towards me. All these things, I should be prepared to deal with if I feel that my actions are justified. I shouldn't take my action and then complain because I got arrested, because my hand hurts from punching a guy or because he set my car on fire because I broke his nose.

So, if someone decided to rape your son in the name of Wicca, you wouldn't consider it wrong?

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Hey, I got the quoting thing right! smile

Congrats.