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| Do you agree with Selective Salvation? |
| Yes |
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15% |
[ 5 ] |
| No |
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84% |
[ 27 ] |
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| Total Votes : 32 |
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:38 pm
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Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:13 am
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Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:12 pm
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SaintChaos but there is scripture all over the place saying God sent his one and only son to die on the cross for the sins of mankind...believer or non believer O_o i don't see how you or any other person could believe otherwise if its pretty direct in words.
And I do not see how you or anyone else can come up with the conclusion that God died for every single sinner on the face of the earth. Furthermore, if you believe that it is God who saves, and that the Father must draw the sinner to Christ, and that apart from this occurring, then I must ask, how do you come up to a conclusion that does not follow logically? God died for the world, but this is only sufficient for the world. For the elect, it is efficient. It is absurd that anyone believes that it is by their free will that they come to believe, especially when Scripture itself states clearly that faith comes from God. So if it comes from God, not man, then how can man say, "I put my faith in Christ, thus, I was born again"? Even so, if faith came first, it would still be God who elects, since again, faith comes from God. For Christ is the Author and Perfecter of our faith, according to Scripture. |
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:44 pm
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John Calvin SaintChaos but there is scripture all over the place saying God sent his one and only son to die on the cross for the sins of mankind...believer or non believer O_o i don't see how you or any other person could believe otherwise if its pretty direct in words. And I do not see how you or anyone else can come up with the conclusion that God died for every single sinner on the face of the earth. Furthermore, if you believe that it is God who saves, and that the Father must draw the sinner to Christ, and that apart from this occurring, then I must ask, how do you come up to a conclusion that does not follow logically? God died for the world, but this is only sufficient for the world. For the elect, it is efficient. It is absurd that anyone believes that it is by their free will that they come to believe, especially when Scripture itself states clearly that faith comes from God. So if it comes from God, not man, then how can man say, "I put my faith in Christ, thus, I was born again"? Even so, if faith came first, it would still be God who elects, since again, faith comes from God. For Christ is the Author and Perfecter of our faith, according to Scripture.
what i also dont understand is how people mix of the different between salvation and sin >>
god sent his son to die on the cross for ours SINS...not our salvation O_o it was just a clensing of our sins that he was sent, nothing more nothing less. jesus dieing on the cross has nothing to do with us being saved.
and just because god chooses not to save everyone, that doesnt mean he cant cleanse everybody's sins. because he doesnt force us to sin, sins are of our own choice and believer or non believer we are held accountable for our sins. |
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:12 pm
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:37 pm
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John Calvin Anything that is incorrect about theology proper, the study of God's attributes, that is nothing short of idolatry. So yes, anything that is a deviation would be sin, if we so say that it is. It would be according to our doctrine, not to God's actual Being. "Are not My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts?" (Isa. 55:8, 9). But you must prove that God actually has emotions instead of bumping into anthropomorphisms, poetry, or anything of the like.
Here's one for you. Jesus wept when He heard that lazarus had died and overthrew the tables in the temple in anger. Jesus, being God incarnate, and, therefore, God, had emotions.
Quote: If you are glad, but then you become angry, are these not changes? This would show that God is subject to suffering outside of Himself. If He gets upset or hurts, there is alteration and subjection to alteration of His Being.
You are looking at God wrong. Yes, your example works for me, but I am bound by time. God's, being outside of time, existance lies in a single moment and an eternity at the same time. To Him we are the past, present, and future, all at once. All things are happening right now to God, and, as such, there is no change, only perfect existance.
Quote: Even so, if Greece is Gentile, because it is non-Jewish, it still does not make any difference to make any variations between the two, since Greeks are non-Jewish. In the Old Testament, God was the God of Israel. Now He is not just the God of Israel, but the God of both Jew and Gentile. Even Paul makes these differences in his Epistle to the Romans.
Which brings us back to the original question. Just what is the difference between 'the jews and the gentiles' and 'everyone'?
Oh, sorry about the delayed reply. I was getting some help on this one from my youth pastor. |
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:40 pm
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:17 pm
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I'm sorry about a delayed response also. Actually, I forgot all about this. But then I saw you in a thread at Socialology & Psychology.
Cometh The Inquisitor Here's one for you. Jesus wept when He heard that lazarus had died and overthrew the tables in the temple in anger. Jesus, being God incarnate, and, therefore, God, had emotions.
This is easy to respond to. Jesus, being Incarnate, having human attributes, this is, no doubt, true. However, this is no reference to the pre-Incarnate Logos. Tell me, does God get hungry? Does God literally weep? Does God really get tired? To all three of these questions, the answers are "No." So, while Jesus was hungry, He was not. When He wept, He wept not. I think you get the picture. Consider these truths:
-Man becomes tired.
-Jesus was man.
-Jesus was God.
-God never gets tired.
Cometh The Inquisitor You are looking at God wrong.
How greatly blunt of you to say, as well as arrogant. I am looking at God wrong? How would you know? Perhaps you should read up on history, hm? I am not the first to bring to you the thought of an impassible God.
Cometh The Inquisitor Yes, your example works for me, but I am bound by time. God's, being outside of time, existance lies in a single moment and an eternity at the same time. To Him we are the past, present, and future, all at once. All things are happening right now to God, and, as such, there is no change, only perfect existance.
By you saying that my example only works for you (let alone, anyone else, since they are human), you pretty much concede this point, especially since you have not addressed the issue. In fact, by saying that God is outside of time (transcendent), you readily confess that God is without change, since, to have change, one needs to have time.
Cometh The Inquisitor Which brings us back to the original question. Just what is the difference between 'the jews and the gentiles' and 'everyone'?
None, really. However, you might be interpreting Scripture to be saying, "Every single individual," rather than being a bit broad about the word, "everyone." By "everyone," I would mean it to refer to "nation, tongue, and tribe." You see, where you focus on an individual, I focus on something more, a nation, a tribe, a tongue. And there are many nations, tribes, and tongues.
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:33 pm
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John Calvin This is easy to respond to. Jesus, being Incarnate, having human attributes, this is, no doubt, true. However, this is no reference to the pre-Incarnate Logos. Tell me, does God get hungry? Does God literally weep? Does God really get tired? To all three of these questions, the answers are "No." So, while Jesus was hungry, He was not. When He wept, He wept not. I think you get the picture. Consider these truths: -Man becomes tired. -Jesus was man. -Jesus was God. -God never gets tired.
So what your saying is, you can account for everything that Jesus felt or did when he walked the earth? None of us were there. we cant just our right say that he didn't do this or that except for what the bible said. Jesus walked the earth with man AS a man. He suffered like we do, he wept, like we do. And most certainly in heaven God weeps for our suffering. You think he just sits buy and eats popcorn? If the bible says God/Jesus weeps, then they weep. Do they shed physical tears? If you want to go THAT technical neither you NOR I can answer that question because neither of us have been around god physically.
Same thing with them getting tired. Jesus was a carpenter when he was young...that type of job can physically get tiring. Its not impossible for God or Jesus to become tired. I couldn't imagine what it was like being nailed to a cross and having to support your body weight. Jesus also DIED on the cross.....dieing can cause you exhaustion...since your body is literally exhausting itself to the brink of death from the torture or blood loss or whatever caused him to actually physically die. Jesus could have easily in his power taken the pain away....but he was sent from his father as a sacrifice to us, to save our sins...so that involved doing things that we do, and that includes being human don't you think? |
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:48 pm
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SaintChaos So what your saying is, you can account for everything that Jesus felt or did when he walked the earth? None of us were there. we cant just our right say that he didn't do this or that except for what the bible said.
Then there is no argument to attend. The truths I posted up, they are Scriptural and factual. And don't even think about quoting Genesis where God "rests." A better word for that would be, "ceased to work."
SaintChaos Jesus walked the earth with man AS a man. He suffered like we do, he wept, like we do. And most certainly in heaven God weeps for our suffering.
Yes, but Jesus had two natures: God and man. He was one person. People weep, natures do not. So, would you like to try to solve the issue that I mentioned?
-Man can become tired.
-Jesus was man.
-Jesus was God.
-God cannot become tired.
Besides, you think that I'm saying that God does not care. What I am arguing against is the fact that someone would take verses such as Genesis 6:6 and say that they are literal, rather than anthropopathic. I don't base my theology on sentiments. That's like hearing someone at my church say, "I could not agree with you that God would send my child to hell," simply because it affects them emotionally, even if it might be backed up by Scripture, unlike that false doctrine, "Age of Accountablity."
SaintChaos You think he just sits buy and eats popcorn?
I never said that He did. You're stretching this a bit more than it needs to be.
SaintChaos If the bible says God/Jesus weeps, then they weep. Do they shed physical tears? If you want to go THAT technical neither you NOR I can answer that question because neither of us have been around god physically.
Jesus wept. Jesus was man. Man weeps. Jesus was God. God is incorporeal. God cannot shed a physical tear.
SaintChaos Same thing with them getting tired. Jesus was a carpenter when he was young...that type of job can physically get tiring. Its not impossible for God or Jesus to become tired. I couldn't imagine what it was like being nailed to a cross and having to support your body weight. Jesus also DIED on the cross.....dieing can cause you exhaustion...since your body is literally exhausting itself to the brink of death from the torture or blood loss or whatever caused him to actually physically die. Jesus could have easily in his power taken the pain away....but he was sent from his father as a sacrifice to us, to save our sins...so that involved doing things that we do, and that includes being human don't you think?
You've simply walked away from the crux of the matter.
-Man can become weary.
-Jesus was man.
-Jesus was God.
-God cannot become weary.
When Christ was hungry, He was not. When He was tired, He was not. He knew all things, yet He learned. |
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:04 am
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John Calvin Then there is no argument to attend. The truths I posted up, they are Scriptural and factual. And don't even think about quoting Genesis where God "rests." A better word for that would be, "ceased to work."
of COURSE im not going to quote Genesis. he used the 7th day as symbol for US to rest on the sabath and attend church. O_o
John Calvin Besides, you think that I'm saying that God does not care. What I am arguing against is the fact that someone would take verses such as Genesis 6:6 and say that they are literal, rather than anthropopathic. I don't base my theology on sentiments. That's like hearing someone at my church say, "I could not agree with you that God would send my child to hell," simply because it affects them emotionally, even if it might be backed up by Scripture, unlike that false doctrine, "Age of Accountablity."
no im not saying that your saying that God does not care. I was using a poetic liscense to emphasize the point i was trying to make o_O
John Calvin I never said that He did. You're stretching this a bit more than it needs to be.
....again...poetic liscense
John Calvin Jesus wept. Jesus was man. Man weeps. Jesus was God. God is incorporeal. God cannot shed a physical tear.
thats the point i was trying to make....your saying God "cannot" do a physical action....he can very much cry if he wants to. There is nothing that God can't do. If God wanted to make himself like a human man, he can very well do so. Hence back to the everything I said before, they're seperate beings and yet one in the same. Just because one does one thing, doesnt mean the other cant do it as well.
And since they're one in the same being, though physically seperate, when Jesus wept it was God at the same time weeping, because they're the SAME being. |
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:11 am
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:16 pm
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SaintChaos -Sunset Wahine- I believe that ourselves alone make the decision to recieve salvation and make it to Heaven or not. The devil won't force you to go to hell. WE give in to him, which brings us to eternity in hell. So according to your theory....we go to hell for giving into Satan? do you realize how many TIMES we give into Satan? Satan constantly tempts us with sin, and since we give into sin ALL the time....according to your theory we all would go to hell. We do not have the descision of accepting salvation. ONLY God can give it, and once given we can not take it away. Man can NOT save man, only God can. Now we can mentally try to deny salvation...."try" being the keyword here, but physically we can not. |
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:01 pm
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SaintChaos no im not saying that your saying that God does not care. I was using a poetic liscense to emphasize the point i was trying to make o_O
I am not sure what you mean by "poetic liscense."
SaintChaos thats the point i was trying to make....your saying God "cannot" do a physical action....he can very much cry if he wants to.
He would need to be corporeal to do so. Crying is a physical attribute.
SaintChaos There is nothing that God can't do.
Scripture states that it is impossible for God to lie. It states also that God cannot disown or deny Himself. God cannot sin, for He is not like a shifting shadow. He remains the same. For God to sin, God would have oppressed Himself, and He would not be omnipotent, since sin would be greater than Him. God cannot add anything to His infinite attributes, because to add is to show that it was not indeed, infinite. God cannot learn, for He knows all that there is to be known.
SaintChaos If God wanted to make himself like a human man, he can very well do so.
No doubt.
SaintChaos Hence back to the everything I said before, they're seperate beings and yet one in the same. Just because one does one thing, doesnt mean the other cant do it as well.
Who is "they"? And what is "separate"? I hope that you are not saying that God and man were separate, and that Christ was both. In other words, I hope you are not saying that Jesus had two persons. That would be Nestorian of you, if that is what you are saying. Nestorianism is a heretical thought condemned long ago. It said that Jesus had two persons and two natures. That is not so. Christ is one person with two natures. Natures are not persons.
SaintChaos And since they're one in the same being, though physically seperate, when Jesus wept it was God at the same time weeping, because they're the SAME being.
Again, when Jesus wept, He did not. He learned, yet He knew all things.
SaintChaos btw....you cant just stand there and say God is incorporeal....
Watch me. God is Spirit (John 4:24). Spirits do not have flesh and bone (Luke 24:38, 39). I have proven to you by Scripture that God is incorporeal. That is, He is without a physical form.
SaintChaos we dont know what god looks like except for the small snibit of information from revelations of him having some type of physical appearance.
John (not the Baptist, nor the Apostle, but another John) says that he turned around, and lo, there was one "like a son of man." Son of Man refers to Christ. Christ called Himself "Son of Man" many times in the Bible, mainly in third person. This is a messianic title, alluding to Daniel 7:13, 14.
SaintChaos head as bright as the sun, feet of bronze and so forth and so on. ill pull out the verse later if you want me to.
There is no need to. Actually, I've been looking over this verse, even before you said this. Yes, with this passage in mind, I have a deeper love and respect towards my God.
SaintChaos but again...we cant vouch for him having a physical body or not. but it soudns like your trying to prove this almost from a scientific point of view.
Even if I were to prove it to you scientifically, it's obvious that we do not see angels and demons amongst us. Why? Perhaps because they do not have corporeal bodies, just as we do.
SaintChaos let say your right and that he doesnt have a physical form, that still doesnt mean he cant shed a physical tear.
I'll leave you to prove such.
SaintChaos this concept alone is contradictory of itself, but this is just a repeat of trying to relate god to a physical item. there is nothing he CANT do.
You might be surprised to see what God cannot do. |
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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:43 am
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John Calvin I am not sure what you mean by "poetic liscense."
poetic license
n.
The liberty taken by an artist or a writer in deviating from conventional form or fact to achieve a desired effect.
in other words, i was using an example to emphasize the point i was trying to make. i didn't mean it in "literal" terms.
John Calvin Scripture states that it is impossible for God to lie. It states also that God cannot disown or deny Himself. God cannot sin, for He is not like a shifting shadow. He remains the same. For God to sin, God would have oppressed Himself, and He would not be omnipotent, since sin would be greater than Him. God cannot add anything to His infinite attributes, because to add is to show that it was not indeed, infinite. God cannot learn, for He knows all that there is to be known.
post the verse that states its "impossible" for god to do a physical action. It is not impossible for god to do anything, he just "choses" not to.
John Calvin Who is "they"? And what is "separate"? I hope that you are not saying that God and man were separate, and that Christ was both. In other words, I hope you are not saying that Jesus had two persons. That would be Nestorian of you, if that is what you are saying. Nestorianism is a heretical thought condemned long ago. It said that Jesus had two persons and two natures. That is not so. Christ is one person with two natures. Natures are not persons.
I was refering to Jesus and God
John Calvin Again, when Jesus wept, He did not. He learned, yet He knew all things.
isnt that a contradiction? to what you just said like a couple sentences ago? Its kind of hard to learn something if you know ALL things. You do believe in the trinity right? Father, Son, Holy Ghost...they're physically seperate yet all one in the same. This is what i was talking about earlier. If God is feeling one thing, so is the holy ghost and jesus.
John Calvin Watch me. God is Spirit (John 4:24). Spirits do not have flesh and bone (Luke 24:38, 39). I have proven to you by Scripture that God is incorporeal. That is, He is without a physical form.
First off, is God talking about himself? no....he's talking about spirits in general. And again, WE don't know if God has a "physical" form...
John Calvin Even if I were to prove it to you scientifically, it's obvious that we do not see angels and demons amongst us. Why? Perhaps because they do not have corporeal bodies, just as we do.
we're talking about God...not about demons or angels.
John Calvin I'll leave you to prove such.
and i have yet to see you disprove him not being able to shed a physical tear.....and i repeat, there is nothing that God can not do. the things that people "consider" impossible for him, is merely a choice he makes in not doing. he CHOOSES not to lie...he CHOOSES not to sin...and so on and so on.
compared to us, WE have to be physical to shed a physical tear, but i highly doubt god has to be coporeal to shed a physical tear. he can do whatever he likes.
god..this is no different then the "can god make a boulder so heavy that he cant lift it?" thread. this is again, comparing an almighty being to a physical item.
think of it like this. what is a tear made of? according to this website LINK
a tear is a "...physically heterogeneous fluid composed of many proteins, lipids, carbohydrates and electrolytes which form a stable and structured anti-microbial system which provides protection for the eye."
we have to have a physical body to produce tears, but god could make a tear out of thin air if he wanted to. he made us out of the dust of the earth, what makes it any harder for him to produce a tear? |
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