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TeaDidikai

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:12 am
TeaDidikai
reagun ban
TeaDidikai
The use of the word theory.

*shoots Tea*
~staggers, clutching her heart-.... ~ Wait... what did you shoot me with? confused
~Is shot with the fluffy bunny launcher, takes a Bunny to the chest and staggers back~ Ugh! Reagun! We were going to use that for dinner!  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:22 am
So... are people's feelings invalid when they get angry at others within the pagan scene for their behavior?

Are we not allowed to express how we feel? Doesn't that break one of the fundamental rights of US criticizes? (Sorry Reagun, love. wink )

When an angry tone of voice and harsh words communicate how we truly feel, are be bad people for expressing ourselves?

And if our feelings and our rights to express said feelings are invalid and wrong- what does that do to the nature of this whole thread which is based upon protecting other people's feelings and invalidating others rights to express themselves as they see fit?  

TeaDidikai


WebenBanu

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:48 pm
~Just a quick update for folks who were wondering where I had gone.^_^

"Real life" has stepped in and is taking me away from Gaia at the moment- I still stop in every now and then and scan through additions to this thread (which I probably shouldn't do, on hindsight, because now my fingers are itching to respond and I don't have the time! Ack!>_<), but I may not get a chance to respond until this other situation is resolved.  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:02 pm
[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

WebenBanu


WebenBanu

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:40 pm
TeaDidikai
Except, such isn't applicable in this case. We look at the rules regarding not questioning another person's right to call themselves something they aren't- and the rule breaks.


There isn't any rule like that in the guidelines, I believe there is actually something to the contrary though- not to call yourself something that you aren't. We just say that the questioning should be done in a polite manner- which is far more likely to yield the desired results.

TeaDidikai
Why is arguing a bad thing? Why do we need to be protected from it?


Because a heated argument is rarely productive. Debate and discussion are one thing- done politely and intelligently they can be very informative. But what does rude behavior accomplish other than making you look childish? It certainly doesn't make the other party any more receptive to your point, it only creates an ugly and usually self-defeating situation. So if you're trying to actually get a point across you'd be better off in a polite discussion or debate. If you're just arguing for argument's sake, you will not accomplish anything except to make yourself look more unruly, childish, and emotionally inept than a person who could have handled the same situation politely- and make your presence unwelcome.

So all things considered, being polite is a means of making yourself a more effective person. It's not always easy, but those sorts of things seldom are.^_^

TeaDidikai
Yes. Heaven forbid we take a look at the energy contributed to the ritual itself and instead socially blacklist someone because their paradigm doesn't hold circles in importance.


In the case of a ritual which makes use of a cast circle, Tea, the mechanics of the ritual call for a cast circle. Blithely destroying that circle simply because it does not fit in your paradigm does not indicate any interest in "looking at the energy contributed to the ritual itself." It looks to me like you're flashing back to some past slight, rather than addressing the situation we're proposing here and now.

TeaDidikai
2) I am speaking to the pragmatic sociological nature of a situation in which these rules are being applied. I cited a prime example, I have listed the individuals who fall into such situations and why such blanket concepts are at the heart of the weapons used in the initial phases of social Witch Wars.


And to the best of my knowlege, I have responded to each of them and adequately demonstrated why they were inappropriate comparisons, or how the "conflicts" you were citing were actually not conflicts with the guidelines at all- but rather, illustrations of just the sorts of situations in which they would have applied.

TeaDidikai
Blow off some steam? That's out of line. Just because I am playing devil's advocate does not make my points invalid.


Sorry Tea, but it's hard for me to see your points when you declare them but don't support them, or when you present them in a way which is not relevant to the discussion, or when you continue to lob them at me after they've already been shown to be inappropriate or ineffective examples- or even as points in my own favor rather than yours.^_^' It seemed like a reasonable motivation to me; I apologize if I mistook your meaning.

TeaDidikai
No. My protest comes from watching what really happens when a bunch of fluffy white lighters piss and moan about individuals who correct them, who actually justify their poor treatment of other people with such arrogant codes of conduct.


Those sorts of people will exist with or without these codes of conduct, and the guidelines proscribe the very kind of behavior about which you're complaining. It seems like this is the tenth time that I've said that to you. Tea, I'm going to ignore further protests along these lines as they are simply your beef with a segment of the population, which is not my fault nor is it caused by polite behavior.

Furthermore, I find it odd to see that you label these guidelines as being arrogant, can you explain why it's arrogant to be polite in the way which these guidelines suggest?

TeaDidikai
Tell you what. I typed this up and it turned into a seven page rant. The rest will be posted directly after this.


Awesome.^_^ My study group is starting in 15 minutes, so I will respond to what I can and leave the rest for next time.

edit- and now I'm in the chat, so it'll have to wait until next time.^_^  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:03 am
WebenBanu
Let's take an example. Let's say that there's a large Kemetic ritual that's about to take place and the public is allowed to join in- a random NeoPagan decides to attend, and walks in. Now there are several things which can happen from here.

Good Manners #1:
If NeoPagan has read any material about Kemetic ritual, she'll understand that the mechanics behind Kemetic ritual do not involve circles- she has decided to attend anyway, so she has clearly made peace with that. NeoPagan either attends the ritual, accepting this style of worship (politely asking questions about the ritual to the presiding priests or informed attendees after it's over), and hopefully has an enriching spiritual experience- or NeoPagan leaves quietly and goes back to doing the kind of ritual to which she is more accustomed.

Bad Manners #1:
NeoPagan is horrified that we're not casting a circle, and as the ritual gets underway she starts questioning the people around her, "Why aren't they casting a circle? OMG, we can't do this without a circle it's dangerous!!!" NeoPagan becomes more and more disruptive to the ritual atmosphere, until she is asked to step outside the ritual area- or perhaps she storms out, making a dramatic exit.

Now again, from here there are more alternatives of what can happen- depending on how others react to our NeoPagan.

Once outside, our bewildered NeoPagan friend asks someone who is hanging around how these Kemetics could possibly do something such as holding ritual without a cast circle.

Good Manners #2:
Assuming that they know the answer, this person explains to the NeoPagan that not all systems of worship use circle casting, and encourages them to look into Kemetic ritual mechanics if they're interested in learning why this one does not.

If he has the time, the knowledge, and is willing, he may also go on to say that one of the purposes of circle casting in NeoPagan rituals such as Wicca, is to slip "Between the Worlds," to reach a point halfway between the spiritual and mundane worlds in which to meet the gods. However, in Kemetic theology our gods are here in this world- manifesting quite clearly and comfortably in what many consider to be a "mundane" environment. There is no need to meet Them halfway, as They're already here. Furthermore, we use pre-ritual purifications to cleanse sacred space (remind the NeoPagan of the water and salt she was sprinkled with on entering the ritual space), and the power of our deities' presence naturally keeps undesirable entities at bay, so circles are not needed for protective measures except in very specific circumstances- which are generally unrelated to worship.

At this point the NeoPagan has the information she lacked before- she may ask a few more questions, or she may be entirely unconvinced. But at this point she knows what Kemetics do and why, and if she can not stomach involvement in a ritual without a circle then she will now avoid Kemetic rites, and she is now far more likely not to be a disturbance in future rituals.

If the person outside did not know the answer, then they might just say, "I don't know." Although it would be helpful to suggest to the NeoPagan that they ask some Kemetics.

Bad Manners #2
The person tells the NeoPagan that they're ignorant and/or stuck up, or is otherwise rude. The NeoPagan leaves the area without any answers, except that reconstructionists are snobs and Kemetics have no idea what they're doing. And though it's unfortunate, it's not entirely unexpected because this is exactly what has been demonstrated to her. This NeoPagan is likely to cause further disturbances within the Pagan community the next time she encounters a ritual which does not make use of a circle casting, and will spread the news on how badly she was treated to her acquaintances, who will likely also be resentful of the treatment and less likely to accept or explore the validity of non-circle casting ritual mechanics, and may also be disruptive in future rituals.

From this example, it can be clearly seen that the politeness of the first NeoPagan attending the event- the one who educated herself on Kemetic customs and did not create a scene- did more than simply protect the feelings of the priests who were holding ritual. It allowed a ritual to proceed more effectively, and everyone got more out of it. Likewise, the politeness of the person standing outside the ritual area did not simply protect the feelings of the NeoPagan who was scandalized by the Kemetics' lack of a circle- it produced a situation which was much more likely to yield a more educated person, who in turn was less likely to disrupt rituals throughout the Pagan community. In the case of the person who did not know or did not have the time to explain, but was still polite, he at least did not antagonize her, and make her more likely to be a future or further disturbance.

Urm... I'm rather baffled that you completely left out the standard in my local pagan community for all rituals - the person holding it educates the entire group on the standards and expectations, informs everyone of what food, drink, and incense (if any) will be used, and asks if anyone has allergies that require care or if anyone has any questions.

I find this a poor example of manners on the part of the participants because it is the responsibility of the hosts to educate the group on the manners for a particular rite. Also, it's fairly cut & dried in terms of manners the way you've presented it.

Let me give you another scenario:

A group holds a large, public ritual to a goddess they describe as a "love and passion" goddess. She is actually, within her tradition, a death and passion and lust goddess, but none of the participants are informed of this. An individual knows about the traditiona nd the goddess; what is the mannerly way to address this?

And, of course, the perenial example of manners: one person is using a racial slur and trappings of a foreign culture in a way that is very insulting to members of that culture. How should the members of the culture handle it in a mannerly way?

Manners aren't cut and dried, for all that you seem to be presenting them as such.  

Deoridhe
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TeaDidikai

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:39 am
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